2024-25 NBA MVP Discussion Thread (Pt. 2)

[JustBuzzin]

Im not being dishonest, he literally calls out Murray and Jokic and even points out the first half vs Dallas where they didn't play defense.

More vocal with the team is asking to play better with more effort like Malone literally said few seconds after but i guess you're selectively remembering what he said.

heres the video

Watch on YouTube

It’s good to see him say that. It shouldn’t matter who the hell you are your coach should not be afraid to call the best player out. Unlike other coaches who are to scared to call out the best players on their team.

Some coaches are scared to call out their best players because those player can’t take criticism. It is why I like a player like Jokic. He isn’t above to being coached

What all-time great player isn't coachable?

[ky_23]

Meh, I know Jokic fills up the stat sheet, but it's a hard sell to me that he's clearly a lot better than a healthy Giannis. Especially since Giannis is an elite defensive big, and Jokic is decidedly not. I think people are underselling Jokic's weaknesses on that end to make it seem like it's not a big deal, but it kind of is, especially when his competition is an elite defensive big who is also a great offensive piece.

Jokic is an all-time great offensive big with mediocre defense, Giannis is an elite 2-way big but not historically good offensively. It's a classic debate, and without a clear winner. Especially since I don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offense is concerned.

even though giannis is still a superior defender to jokic, he is not the same beast he was 3 years ago. although it is debatable, a top one sided offensive player is more influential for team's overall performance than a top two way player imo. a player's individual presence on offensive is harder to compensate when a particular ability lacks and far more impactful than on defense because of the natural need of collaborative effort of team defense. i remember when giannis was a back to back mvp and dpoy and how much the bucks offense struggled against miami because of giannis' lack of offensive skills back then.
btw i cant see how jokic is not in goat offense territory where he makea a team with no other all star a contender every year by himself as a one side player

"Contender every year" is doing some heavy lifting here man lol

i am talking about his prime years of course. only years where you cant count them as contenders were when they had crucial missing pieces and had to have campazzo as starting guard, rely on will barton and demarcus cousins to lead offense while jokic was sitting. jokic won mvp both years tho. 2020 they played wcf, 2023 won the finals, last year they were top 3 contenders, this year you can count them after okc ,boston and maybe dallas. even with murray is underperfoming and gordon is out, denver is one of the best teams in the nba while he is on the court.

[AleksandarN]

It’s good to see him say that. It shouldn’t matter who the hell you are your coach should not be afraid to call the best player out. Unlike other coaches who are to scared to call out the best players on their team.

Some coaches are scared to call out their best players because those player can’t take criticism. It is why I like a player like Jokic. He isn’t above to being coached

What all-time great player isn't coachable?

[Packbuckman]

Meh, I know Jokic fills up the stat sheet, but it's a hard sell to me that he's clearly a lot better than a healthy Giannis. Especially since Giannis is an elite defensive big, and Jokic is decidedly not. I think people are underselling Jokic's weaknesses on that end to make it seem like it's not a big deal, but it kind of is, especially when his competition is an elite defensive big who is also a great offensive piece.

Jokic is an all-time great offensive big with mediocre defense, Giannis is an elite 2-way big but not historically good offensively. It's a classic debate, and without a clear winner. Especially since I don't think Jokic is in GOAT territory as far as offense is concerned.

even though giannis is still a superior defender to jokic, he is not the same beast he was 3 years ago. although it is debatable, a top one sided offensive player is more influential for team's overall performance than a top two way player imo. a player's individual presence on offensive is harder to compensate when a particular ability lacks and far more impactful than on defense because of the natural need of collaborative effort of team defense. i remember when giannis was a back to back mvp and dpoy and how much the bucks offense struggled against miami because of giannis' lack of offensive skills back then.
btw i cant see how jokic is not in goat offense territory where he makea a team with no other all star a contender every year by himself as a one side player

Jokic might technically not have another all star Murray can get hot and has played like one. He also has good shooters on his team which makes a world of difference when he passing for those assists they still got to make it. Giannis is not just a two way player he is a leading the league scorer and his defense after the slow start by team has refocused him on the defensive end. His free throw shooting is only thing in my mind that’s holding him back to be undisputed best player a 85% Giannis would be as good as anybody ever. His form looks way better this year slowly going up after starting out in 50’s **** I would take back to 70’s lol

[JustBuzzin]

Some coaches are scared to call out their best players because those player can’t take criticism. It is why I like a player like Jokic. He isn’t above to being coached

What all-time great player isn't coachable?

LeBron has multiple championships. If he isn't coachable he wouldn't have any rings Erneh!

[AleksandarN]

What all-time great player isn't coachable?

LeBron has multiple championships. If he isn't coachable he wouldn't have any rings Erneh!

Because he is a control freak and coaches himself

[doogie_hauser]

What all-time great player isn't coachable?

LeBron has multiple championships. If he isn't coachable he wouldn't have any rings Erneh!

I agree with that, but you could argue that Lebron would have won at least another chip or two, if he wasn't so 'influential' regarding roster moves and trades.

Having said that, rings are as damn hard to win these days, and leading 3 different franchises to a chip is an extraordinary effort.

[MoneyTalks41890]

If the Nuggets are in the bottom half of the playoff picture, even if Jokic is playing like his usual self, I don’t think he gets it.

SGA is building a good case again.

[SA37]

The issue like i said is narrative. The MVPs in Boston are the system and the FO. They can win as much as they want, no one is attributing it to Tatum. And it wouldn't necessarily be incorrect, 51 3s a game, ~7 more than the number 2 team in 3PA tells us everything we need to know.

i think it's quite easy to ignore that gap, considering the nuggets with nikola jokic in the game perform about the same as the celtics do when jayson tatum is in the game, and jokic is obvioulsy far more productive than tatum.

i'd like to hear why you think the celtics' performance without tatum and the nuggets' performance without jokic has (or should have) any bearing at all on which player should win mvp. are they emitting gamma rays from the bench that influence game outcomes when they aren't on the court? i'm open to any explanation you have.

This seems like a strong effort to minimize Tatum to the benefit of just about anything or anyone else. As I pointed out in my previous post, Tatum has finished quite high in MVP voting over the last 3 years, and we have seen others get consideration whose only claim to being in the convo was team success given 1) their largely pedestrian output and 2) the fact they were nowhere close to being the best player in the league (Billups, Gobert, Draymond Green, Ben Wallace, Marc Gasol, and Joakim Noah all fit this). That's not my opinion, but rather the opinion of those who actually vote for the award.

The issue to me is not narrative, but rather a lack of a concrete set of criteria on which we judge the MVP. If it's the best player in the league, Tatum is never going to win the award. So long as it continues to be a subjective take on an amalgamation of player output and team success, Tatum will continue to get some consideration for the award if/when Boston continues to have one of the top teams in the league and Tatum is far and away their best player.

[slick_watts]

The issue like i said is narrative. The MVPs in Boston are the system and the FO. They can win as much as they want, no one is attributing it to Tatum. And it wouldn't necessarily be incorrect, 51 3s a game, ~7 more than the number 2 team in 3PA tells us everything we need to know.

i think it's quite easy to ignore that gap, considering the nuggets with nikola jokic in the game perform about the same as the celtics do when jayson tatum is in the game, and jokic is obvioulsy far more productive than tatum.

i'd like to hear why you think the celtics' performance without tatum and the nuggets' performance without jokic has (or should have) any bearing at all on which player should win mvp. are they emitting gamma rays from the bench that influence game outcomes when they aren't on the court? i'm open to any explanation you have.

If it's the best player in the league, Tatum is never going to win the award.

agreed.

[brackdan70]

EPM Estimated Wins
SGA
Tatum
Wagner
VanFleet
Jokic

LEBRON Data
Tatum
Jokic
SGA
Towns
Wagner

[Wolfgang630]

Hard to me to root for this kind of player win mvp. Another Harden type.

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=XO0PgrZjS-uU8MmGKL8grQ

[MoneyTalks41890]

Hard to me to root for this kind of player win mvp. Another Harden type.

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=XO0PgrZjS-uU8MmGKL8grQ

That play is a foul. Six out of SGA’s 35 points came from the line in that win.

[DirtyDez]

If you take Tatum off the Celtics they’re still a top ___ team? If you take Joker off the Nuggets they’re a bottom ___ team?

[brackdan70]

If you take Tatum off the Celtics they’re still a top ___ team? If you take Joker off the Nuggets they’re a bottom ___ team?

Is this how we determine it?

Well if we use EPM estimated wins as the Metric Tatum has added more so far this year.

[DirtyDez]

If you take Tatum off the Celtics they’re still a top ___ team? If you take Joker off the Nuggets they’re a bottom ___ team?

Is this how we determine it?

Well if we use EPM estimated wins as the Metric Tatum has added more so far this year.

Alright take away the question from an MVP perspective and just answer it as a random question.

[brackdan70]

If you take Tatum off the Celtics they’re still a top ___ team? If you take Joker off the Nuggets they’re a bottom ___ team?

Is this how we determine it?

Well if we use EPM estimated wins as the Metric Tatum has added more so far this year.

Alright take away the question from an MVP perspective and just answer it as a random question.

Celtics have 3.7 less wins and Nuggets have 3.2 less wins.

[GSP]

Zion cracking jokes on bench i feel bad for Pelicans fans. Hes a bum

[Hook_Em]

If you take Tatum off the Celtics they’re still a top ___ team? If you take Joker off the Nuggets they’re a bottom ___ team?

The Celtics have 4-5 players capable of putting up superstar performances on any given night. Thats not Tatum’s fault but they are beyond stacked with high level started as well as role players.

[GiannisAnte34]

If you take Tatum off the Celtics they’re still a top ___ team? If you take Joker off the Nuggets they’re a bottom ___ team?

The Celtics have 4-5 players capable of putting up superstar performances on any given night. Thats not Tatum’s fault but they are beyond stacked with high level started as well as role players.

It’s honestly baffling how Celtics fans are unwilling to admit this. If you put any of the top stars in Tatums position where their teammates are Jaylen Brown, KP, White, and Holiday they are going to put up absurd numbers on excellent efficiency. Imagine Jokic or Giannis with that cast? Tatum is just in the best of the best circumstances so the expectations for him to get MVP should be quite high