Is SGA an underrated scorer or was Kobe overrated?

[Mephariel]

Damn, people on YouTube are brutal:

"Herro getting ejected doesn't make sense tbh. He was already tossed as it is."

[Pelly24]

Kobe was maybe the most negative player in the NBA his last 2 seasons, because normally a player who kills you that much is benched. His TS% was not 57%, it was 46-47^ those years; well below average. You have incorrectly cited his other stats too, he was between 17 and 22 ppg, and no stat fully captures just how harmful he was to his team. If by 'last healthy season' you mean 2013, then I fail to see how that's relevant to the point I was making about his lack of self awareness.

He went to 3 straight finals from 08 to 10 because he was on the most stacked team in the league.

oh yeah, then my bad.

But i still don't think Kobe getting 30/6/6 on above average efficiency is out of the question. I even think it's likely.

He was one of the most creative scorers I've ever seen. I feel like people are underestimating his pure ability. This guy was amazing.

Whatever his 'numbers' are, his impact today would be reduced for the reasons I and others already explained. That's particularly troubling because even his impact in his own era is overstated. From 00 to 07, in games without Shaq, Kobe led the Lakers to a 135-137 record. He was not a great floor raiser.

I watched the 2005-2007 lakers. That wasn't a good team, but he had them in the playoffs.

This isn't everything, but https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2006 this matches what i saw back then. Getting this team to 46 wins was no easy feat.

I think in general though the people on this board are taking a bit of the cynical route. We can see that Kobe was a great athlete who was maybe the greatest ballhandler for a SG ever, he could be a strong playmaker and defender. You couldn't keep him off the line. We know it's easier to score today, and scoring a lot of points efficiency while being a good defender is still very helpful. We know he was generally very durable.

Between 2006 and 2010, his playoff BPM was at about MVP level (just below 8) while playing a reckless style that probably even didn't maximize his impact. While he played with Shaq, he also played against like, peak Tim Duncan. It's very hard to win championships and have your production translate to the playoffs. Tatum has never had a playoff BPM above seven for even one run, for instance.

Maybe it just depends on where people think Kobe would rank today. I'd have him behind Jokic, Luka, SGA and Giannis, but after that, he's right there. And given some of Giannis' playoff struggles, I might pick Kobe. Shai has one really good playoff run. But no one else in the league has the combo of playoff success and regular season success and versatility — maybe besides Jimmy Butler — to really be in the convo for being better than Kobe.

[One_and_Done]

oh yeah, then my bad.

But i still don't think Kobe getting 30/6/6 on above average efficiency is out of the question. I even think it's likely.

He was one of the most creative scorers I've ever seen. I feel like people are underestimating his pure ability. This guy was amazing.

Whatever his 'numbers' are, his impact today would be reduced for the reasons I and others already explained. That's particularly troubling because even his impact in his own era is overstated. From 00 to 07, in games without Shaq, Kobe led the Lakers to a 135-137 record. He was not a great floor raiser.

I watched the 2005-2007 lakers. That wasn't a good team, but he had them in the playoffs.

This isn't everything, but https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2006 this matches what i saw back then. Getting this team to 46 wins was no easy feat.

I think in general though the people on this board are taking a bit of the cynical route. We can see that Kobe was a great athlete who was maybe the greatest ballhandler for a SG ever, he could be a strong playmaker and defender. You couldn't keep him off the line. We know it's easier to score today, and scoring a lot of points efficiency while being a good defender is still very helpful. We know he was generally very durable.

Between 2006 and 2010, his playoff BPM was at about MVP level (just below 8) while playing a reckless style that probably even didn't maximize his impact. While he played with Shaq, he also played against like, peak Tim Duncan. It's very hard to win championships and have your production translate to the playoffs. Tatum has never had a playoff BPM above seven for even one run, for instance.

Maybe it just depends on where people think Kobe would rank today. I'd have him behind Jokic, Luka, SGA and Giannis, but after that, he's right there. And given some of Giannis' playoff struggles, I might pick Kobe. Shai has one really good playoff run. But no one else in the league has the combo of playoff success and regular season success and versatility — maybe besides Jimmy Butler — to really be in the convo for being better than Kobe.

The 05 Lakers were not a playoff team, and were clearly not going to make it regardless which is why they shut Odom down once it was practically impossible. I've broken the numbers on this down before.

I don't think getting to 500ish with this sort of support cast should be hard for a top 20-30 type player. That's the thing I think you're missing here. Kobe is not being compared to Vince Carter or Paul Pierce here. He's being compared to the elite, and against that elite of players like Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Giannis, Lebron, etc, Kobe's floor raising doesn't hold up well at all. From 00 to 07 in games without Shaq the Lakers had a 135-137 record in games Kobe played. That is reflective of his lift, but that is not the lift of a top 15 type player.

I also just disagree with you on more fundamental stuff. Kobe was not 'the greatest ballhandling shooting guard ever', that's a borderline absurd claim. Assuming Harden counts as a shooting guard he's among the players who are clearly better ballhandlers. I don't think I have ever heard anyone make this claim about Kobe.

I appreciate that you at least have him below SGA, Luka, Jokic, and Giannis, but honestly there are other guys above him. Right now I'm not sure peak Kobe would be top 10 today. I also find your excuse that he had to play guys like Duncan a bit weak. Yeh, he had to play prime Duncan, but he was the sidekick to prime Shaq for those match ups.

[Pelly24]

Whatever his 'numbers' are, his impact today would be reduced for the reasons I and others already explained. That's particularly troubling because even his impact in his own era is overstated. From 00 to 07, in games without Shaq, Kobe led the Lakers to a 135-137 record. He was not a great floor raiser.

I watched the 2005-2007 lakers. That wasn't a good team, but he had them in the playoffs.

This isn't everything, but https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2006 this matches what i saw back then. Getting this team to 46 wins was no easy feat.

I think in general though the people on this board are taking a bit of the cynical route. We can see that Kobe was a great athlete who was maybe the greatest ballhandler for a SG ever, he could be a strong playmaker and defender. You couldn't keep him off the line. We know it's easier to score today, and scoring a lot of points efficiency while being a good defender is still very helpful. We know he was generally very durable.

Between 2006 and 2010, his playoff BPM was at about MVP level (just below 8) while playing a reckless style that probably even didn't maximize his impact. While he played with Shaq, he also played against like, peak Tim Duncan. It's very hard to win championships and have your production translate to the playoffs. Tatum has never had a playoff BPM above seven for even one run, for instance.

Maybe it just depends on where people think Kobe would rank today. I'd have him behind Jokic, Luka, SGA and Giannis, but after that, he's right there. And given some of Giannis' playoff struggles, I might pick Kobe. Shai has one really good playoff run. But no one else in the league has the combo of playoff success and regular season success and versatility — maybe besides Jimmy Butler — to really be in the convo for being better than Kobe.

The 05 Lakers were not a playoff team, and were clearly not going to make it regardless which is why they shut Odom down once it was practically impossible. I've broken the numbers on this down before.

I don't think getting to 500ish with this sort of support cast should be hard for a top 20-30 type player. That's the thing I think you're missing here. Kobe is not being compared to Vince Carter or Paul Pierce here. He's being compared to the elite, and against that elite of players like Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Giannis, Lebron, etc, Kobe's floor raising doesn't hold up well at all. From 00 to 07 in games without Shaq the Lakers had a 135-137 record in games Kobe played. That is reflective of his lift, but that is not the lift of a top 15 type player.

I also just disagree with you on more fundamental stuff. Kobe was not 'the greatest ballhandling shooting guard ever', that's a borderline absurd claim. Assuming Harden counts as a shooting guard he's among the players who are clearly better ballhandlers. I don't think I have ever heard anyone make this claim about Kobe.

I appreciate that you at least have him below SGA, Luka, Jokic, and Giannis, but honestly there are other guys above him. Right now I'm not sure peak Kobe would be top 10 today. I also find your excuse that he had to play guys like Duncan a bit weak. Yeh, he had to play prime Duncan, but he was the sidekick to prime Shaq for those match ups.

That 2006 lakers team was *bad* and they were five or six games over .500. I remember watching. Just a very bad team and their offensive rating was 92.8 when he was off the court.

lol saying Kobe is the GOAT SG ballhandler is not absurd. his turnover rate was at about 3 per game at a 33% usage rate in his prime (2000 to 2010). That's pretty great considering all the time he dominated the rock and the types of defenses he faced. With Harden it's a bit hard to tell the line between athleticism and handle. Kobe to me looked like Kyrie with how seamlessly he could do spin moves and change direction while in complete control of the ball. I would say Michael Jordan has an argument for better handle, but harden had less range of motion with the rock in his hand, but his crossover was better. But Kobe was an amazing ballhandler.

I don't think Kobe had a top 15 peak ever. More like a top 20-25 peak ever. What makes him special was that he maintained that performance for about 13 years. He was a top 3 to top 8 or so player for over 12 years. That's a big deal. personally, I would have kobe in my top 13 to 20 players ever.

I guess I'd have to see who you chose above kobe outside of those guys. I don't see an argument for Tatum, Anthony Davis, Steph or KD this season. I love Brunson, but Kobe still relatively more efficient with better defense and more scoring volume. Ant should've never been in these convos since he's not even more efficient than Kobe was 11 years ago *now*. Donovan Mitchell? Nope. LeBron isn't there. Shai might have a better peak, but not career so far. Maybe that's just a matter of time. Idk.

As for the Tim Duncan stuff, it's not as though Kobe was just along for the ride lol. He averaged like 28/5/5 and played good defense. Also, he beat Tim Duncan in 2008 (still prime) while averaging 29/6/4 on 58 TS% in 2008.

Like i understand using advanced numbers and stuff, and I even do think Kobe is a bit overrated. But we can't just sweep his championships, scoring output and consistency in the regular season and playoffs, ability to play on and off ball, and then just things like his elite athleticism and length and high IQ. Like ... Kobe was an incredible player. I don't think players are just magically way better now. I could see if Kobe's production didn't hold up in the playoffs, but it did, which again says something.

[One_and_Done]

I watched the 2005-2007 lakers. That wasn't a good team, but he had them in the playoffs.

This isn't everything, but https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/on-off/2006 this matches what i saw back then. Getting this team to 46 wins was no easy feat.

I think in general though the people on this board are taking a bit of the cynical route. We can see that Kobe was a great athlete who was maybe the greatest ballhandler for a SG ever, he could be a strong playmaker and defender. You couldn't keep him off the line. We know it's easier to score today, and scoring a lot of points efficiency while being a good defender is still very helpful. We know he was generally very durable.

Between 2006 and 2010, his playoff BPM was at about MVP level (just below 8) while playing a reckless style that probably even didn't maximize his impact. While he played with Shaq, he also played against like, peak Tim Duncan. It's very hard to win championships and have your production translate to the playoffs. Tatum has never had a playoff BPM above seven for even one run, for instance.

Maybe it just depends on where people think Kobe would rank today. I'd have him behind Jokic, Luka, SGA and Giannis, but after that, he's right there. And given some of Giannis' playoff struggles, I might pick Kobe. Shai has one really good playoff run. But no one else in the league has the combo of playoff success and regular season success and versatility — maybe besides Jimmy Butler — to really be in the convo for being better than Kobe.

The 05 Lakers were not a playoff team, and were clearly not going to make it regardless which is why they shut Odom down once it was practically impossible. I've broken the numbers on this down before.

I don't think getting to 500ish with this sort of support cast should be hard for a top 20-30 type player. That's the thing I think you're missing here. Kobe is not being compared to Vince Carter or Paul Pierce here. He's being compared to the elite, and against that elite of players like Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Giannis, Lebron, etc, Kobe's floor raising doesn't hold up well at all. From 00 to 07 in games without Shaq the Lakers had a 135-137 record in games Kobe played. That is reflective of his lift, but that is not the lift of a top 15 type player.

I also just disagree with you on more fundamental stuff. Kobe was not 'the greatest ballhandling shooting guard ever', that's a borderline absurd claim. Assuming Harden counts as a shooting guard he's among the players who are clearly better ballhandlers. I don't think I have ever heard anyone make this claim about Kobe.

I appreciate that you at least have him below SGA, Luka, Jokic, and Giannis, but honestly there are other guys above him. Right now I'm not sure peak Kobe would be top 10 today. I also find your excuse that he had to play guys like Duncan a bit weak. Yeh, he had to play prime Duncan, but he was the sidekick to prime Shaq for those match ups.

That 2006 lakers team was *bad* and they were five or six games over .500. I remember watching. Just a very bad team and their offensive rating was 92.8 when he was off the court.

lol saying Kobe is the GOAT SG ballhandler is not absurd. his turnover rate was at about 3 per game at a 33% usage rate in his prime (2000 to 2010). That's pretty great considering all the time he dominated the rock and the types of defenses he faced. With Harden it's a bit hard to tell the line between athleticism and handle. Kobe to me looked like Kyrie with how seamlessly he could do spin moves and change direction while in complete control of the ball. I would say Michael Jordan has an argument for better handle, but harden had less range of motion with the rock in his hand, but his crossover was better. But Kobe was an amazing ballhandler.

I don't think Kobe had a top 15 peak ever. More like a top 20-25 peak ever. What makes him special was that he maintained that performance for about 13 years. He was a top 3 to top 8 or so player for over 12 years. That's a big deal. personally, I would have kobe in my top 13 to 20 players ever.

I guess I'd have to see who you chose above kobe outside of those guys. I don't see an argument for Tatum, Anthony Davis, Steph or KD this season. I love Brunson, but Kobe still relatively more efficient with better defense and more scoring volume. Ant should've never been in these convos since he's not even more efficient than Kobe was 11 years ago *now*. Donovan Mitchell? Nope. LeBron isn't there. Shai might have a better peak, but not career so far. Maybe that's just a matter of time. Idk.

As for the Tim Duncan stuff, it's not as though Kobe was just along for the ride lol. He averaged like 28/5/5 and played good defense. Also, he beat Tim Duncan in 2008 (still prime) while averaging 29/6/4 on 58 TS% in 2008.

Like i understand using advanced numbers and stuff, and I even do think Kobe is a bit overrated. But we can't just sweep his championships, scoring output and consistency in the regular season and playoffs, ability to play on and off ball, and then just things like his elite athleticism and length and high IQ. Like ... Kobe was an incredible player. I don't think players are just magically way better now. I could see if Kobe's production didn't hold up in the playoffs, but it did, which again says something.

Duncan's prime was 98-07. By 08 the injuries had started to wear him down, which was obvious by a number of statistical and observational measures. His knees were bone on bone.

The Lakers 06 team had Kobe and Odom. That due shouldn't have needed much around them to easily make the playoffs if Kobe is the player his fans make him out to be.

As for guys who are better than Kobe right now, I'd say Tatum for sure. Based on his recent play, Wemby too. I'd still take KD and Curry, and yeh probably AD too. Kobe is in that next group with guys like Ant and Booker. I'd likely take Mitchell over him as well

13 to 20 all-time isn't insane, but at this point I don't think he cracks my top 20 all-time.

[tsherkin]

All this doesn't factor in that today's players are better on average than they were in Kobe’s day.

That is definitely straight-up horsecrap.

There are fewer places to attack as a wing when you try to iso; which is 100% what Kobe would try to do. Today's systems are also far more complex.[/qjuote]

This isn't really true. And Kobe wouldn't have any issue taking a screen instead of performing a still dribble isolation. We see guys attacking off the bounce from above the arc all the time, so this is a non-starter of a comment. And as far system complexity, the triangle was a complex read-react system and everyone who ever played with him commented on his ability to process that just fine. There would be no issue with system complexity.

You have a problem appreciating Kobe's strengths, and hyperfixating on his weaknesses. You treat him like he was stupid, and that's a very bad mistake.

Another underduscussed point is the increased energy you have to expend on D today.

No one cares, we're talking about scoring. If Luka can do it and be half-way passable, Kobe would be fine. And Luka frequently looks halfway passable when he wants to, and Kobe was more athletic.

I realise he wasn't in his prime anymore, but it's telling how bad Kobe looked on D in his last 2 seasons in the NB

Nope, that's not an intelligent approach. Post-Achilles rupture, 36 and 37 years old, already logged over 45,000 minutes in just the regular season, playing on garbage teams going nowhere... I struggle to imagine a LESS useful examination of someone's defense. That's a REMARKABLY disingenuous comment.

[dolphinatik]

Neither. If you dont know who SGA is or what he can do you just havnt been watching basketball the last few years. Model player and teammate. Kobe in my biased opinion was an inefficient ball hogging chucker but not overrated. He was feared because he could carry and wouldnt stop coming. The world was looking for an MJ replacement and Kobe was the closest with his ruthlessness, aggression and study of the game. Its not close Kobe played D, had to mature very quickly, coached and held his teammates accountable He is abettere package than SGA. I dont think SGA can get there he just isn't built like that.

[tsherkin]

Kobe in my biased opinion was an inefficient ball hogging chucker but not overrated.

This is definitively inaccurate; it's the perception of Kobe, but it's not true. Over his 11-year prime, he was actually a +3% rTS guy (2000-2010). He had a long career, and started quite young, so people remember him as a kid air-balling it against Utah and as post-Achilles Kobe bombing away on garbage teams, but he was actually pretty efficient during his hey-day.

Whether or not Kobe is "overrated" depends on to whom you are speaking; if it's a fanatical Kobe cultist, then the answer is "yes." If it's someone who has a more measured overview of his career, strengths and weaknesses, then "no." It's a viable comparison, looking at SGA as a scorer compared to Kobe, but it's worth mentioning that Bryant did have a mentality that had archaic elements to it even in his own career, which is part of why this conversation is coming up.

[Pelly24]

The 05 Lakers were not a playoff team, and were clearly not going to make it regardless which is why they shut Odom down once it was practically impossible. I've broken the numbers on this down before.

I don't think getting to 500ish with this sort of support cast should be hard for a top 20-30 type player. That's the thing I think you're missing here. Kobe is not being compared to Vince Carter or Paul Pierce here. He's being compared to the elite, and against that elite of players like Duncan, Shaq, Jokic, Giannis, Lebron, etc, Kobe's floor raising doesn't hold up well at all. From 00 to 07 in games without Shaq the Lakers had a 135-137 record in games Kobe played. That is reflective of his lift, but that is not the lift of a top 15 type player.

I also just disagree with you on more fundamental stuff. Kobe was not 'the greatest ballhandling shooting guard ever', that's a borderline absurd claim. Assuming Harden counts as a shooting guard he's among the players who are clearly better ballhandlers. I don't think I have ever heard anyone make this claim about Kobe.

I appreciate that you at least have him below SGA, Luka, Jokic, and Giannis, but honestly there are other guys above him. Right now I'm not sure peak Kobe would be top 10 today. I also find your excuse that he had to play guys like Duncan a bit weak. Yeh, he had to play prime Duncan, but he was the sidekick to prime Shaq for those match ups.

That 2006 lakers team was *bad* and they were five or six games over .500. I remember watching. Just a very bad team and their offensive rating was 92.8 when he was off the court.

lol saying Kobe is the GOAT SG ballhandler is not absurd. his turnover rate was at about 3 per game at a 33% usage rate in his prime (2000 to 2010). That's pretty great considering all the time he dominated the rock and the types of defenses he faced. With Harden it's a bit hard to tell the line between athleticism and handle. Kobe to me looked like Kyrie with how seamlessly he could do spin moves and change direction while in complete control of the ball. I would say Michael Jordan has an argument for better handle, but harden had less range of motion with the rock in his hand, but his crossover was better. But Kobe was an amazing ballhandler.

I don't think Kobe had a top 15 peak ever. More like a top 20-25 peak ever. What makes him special was that he maintained that performance for about 13 years. He was a top 3 to top 8 or so player for over 12 years. That's a big deal. personally, I would have kobe in my top 13 to 20 players ever.

I guess I'd have to see who you chose above kobe outside of those guys. I don't see an argument for Tatum, Anthony Davis, Steph or KD this season. I love Brunson, but Kobe still relatively more efficient with better defense and more scoring volume. Ant should've never been in these convos since he's not even more efficient than Kobe was 11 years ago *now*. Donovan Mitchell? Nope. LeBron isn't there. Shai might have a better peak, but not career so far. Maybe that's just a matter of time. Idk.

As for the Tim Duncan stuff, it's not as though Kobe was just along for the ride lol. He averaged like 28/5/5 and played good defense. Also, he beat Tim Duncan in 2008 (still prime) while averaging 29/6/4 on 58 TS% in 2008.

Like i understand using advanced numbers and stuff, and I even do think Kobe is a bit overrated. But we can't just sweep his championships, scoring output and consistency in the regular season and playoffs, ability to play on and off ball, and then just things like his elite athleticism and length and high IQ. Like ... Kobe was an incredible player. I don't think players are just magically way better now. I could see if Kobe's production didn't hold up in the playoffs, but it did, which again says something.

Duncan's prime was 98-07. By 08 the injuries had started to wear him down, which was obvious by a number of statistical and observational measures. His knees were bone on bone.

The Lakers 06 team had Kobe and Odom. That due shouldn't have needed much around them to easily make the playoffs if Kobe is the player his fans make him out to be.

As for guys who are better than Kobe right now, I'd say Tatum for sure. Based on his recent play, Wemby too. I'd still take KD and Curry, and yeh probably AD too. Kobe is in that next group with guys like Ant and Booker. I'd likely take Mitchell over him as well

13 to 20 all-time isn't insane, but at this point I don't think he cracks my top 20 all-time.

Kobe outperforms Tatum and all these guys in the playoffs. Wemby? We at least gotta see him do it in the postseason.

I just don't see how you're taking guys that barely even score more efficiently than Kobe literally did 20 years ago (Ant, Mitchell) *now* when the balance has been swung completely in the favor of offensive players. Like looking at their games, especially Booker, Mitchell and Ant, Kobe is basically a better player in every conceivable way lol. Tatum I can kind of understand, but Kobe just does way bettr in the postseason and especially in the finals.

It feels like you've done research and stuff, but idk. I think you might just have some unconscious Kobe bias, because none of these guys really belong in the same sentence as him at this point. Like a guy averaging 25/4/5 on 57 TS% in 2024 should never be compared to Kobe Bryant.

[Jaqua92]

Jesus Christ.

[sashaturiaf]

Kobe 5 NBA championships
SGA 5 playoffs games won

Yeah they are not the same

[SkyBill40]

Kobe 5 NBA championships
SGA 5 playoffs games won

Yeah they are not the same

TEAM game, dude. Without that, Bryant has zero just as Gilgeous-Alexander. Stick to analysis of the PLAYER and leave it there.

[tsherkin]

Kobe 5 NBA championships
SGA 5 playoffs games won

Yeah they are not the same

This isn't really a useful post. Championships are team accomplishments. And especially if you put down 5, SGA never had a chance to play with someone as good as prime Shaq. You're actually doing a DISSERVICE to the pro-Kobe crowd by making an argument this disingenuous.

[Michael Beasley]

Wake me up when SGA gets past the second round. Until then he's the most overrated player in the league.

Kobe's 09 and 10 title teams wouldn't make it out of the 1st round in today's league. They might not even make the West play in honestly.

Cool hypothetical. SGA lost in the second round as a 1 seed.

[tsherkin]

Wake me up when SGA gets past the second round. Until then he's the most overrated player in the league.

Kobe's 09 and 10 title teams wouldn't make it out of the 1st round in today's league. They might not even make the West play in honestly.

Cool hypothetical. SGA lost in the second round as a 1 seed.

Sure, but that wasn't his doing. He posted 32/8/7 on 59.9% TS in that series, and went out in G6 with 36/3/8 on 64% TS while OKC's defense crapped itself in the second half. And Dallas was a lot better in the playoffs than they had been in the RS.

And of course, Kobe's teams in 09 and 10 were built for 09 and 10, not today. So how they'd perform today is totally irrelevant and a non-sensical thing to bring up, for sure.

[Homer38]

Kobe is better but some argument against SGA are awful

Also to said that a duo Kobe and Gasol might not make the playin in the current nba is ridiculous but he is the same who said the same about the 1998 lakers few day ago

[RHODEY]

Kobe is the most overrated greatest player of all time. I know he's an all time great but so many folks put him in the GOAT convo when he's actually right outside the top 10 of all time. Hope that's not seen as a knock as I understand Kobe's greatness.

NAh he's the most disrespected great player, by a subset group of Gen Z'ers, who grew up on EPSN Lebron slurping. To them empty stats ( in league geared for that) > than a GOAT level alpha who did it at the highest levels without having to team up with top ten players.

[10DayContract]

I watched them both, and Kobe is better.

[Homer38]

Kobe is the most overrated greatest player of all time. I know he's an all time great but so many folks put him in the GOAT convo when he's actually right outside the top 10 of all time. Hope that's not seen as a knock as I understand Kobe's greatness.

NAh he's the most disrespected great player, by a subset group of Gen Z'ers, who grew up on EPSN Lebron slurping. To them empty stats ( in league geared that it) > than a GOAT level alpha who did on at the highest levels without having to team up with top ten players.

Making 10 finals is now empty stats

Kobe had also shaq in the first 8 years and Shaq was at his peak...Imagine Lebron with a player better that him in his team for most of the time in the first 8 years....

[Tor_Raps]

Kobe is the most overrated greatest player of all time. I know he's an all time great but so many folks put him in the GOAT convo when he's actually right outside the top 10 of all time. Hope that's not seen as a knock as I understand Kobe's greatness.

NAh he's the most disrespected great player, by a subset group of Gen Z'ers, who grew up on EPSN Lebron slurping. To them empty stats ( in league geared that it) > than a GOAT level alpha who did on at the highest levels without having to team up with top ten players.

Who's the GOAT level alpha that didn't need to team up with a top 10 player? Hope you're referring to Jordan there and not Kobe lol.

Jordan > LeBron >> Kobe is how I see it.