Where does the myth of physical 90s NBA basketball come from?

[dhsilv2]

League officials are aware that scoring in regular season games dropped 17 points between 1986 and [1993-1994]. Defense became the best route to the Finals, if not the championship.

I know those weren't your words, as you are quoting another source, but I dispute that statement -

1) The '91 Bulls were the best offensive team in the NBA, but #7 in defense.
2) The '92 Bulls were again 1st in offense, #4 in defense.
3) In '93, the Suns were 1st in offense and the champion Bulls #2. Neither were Top 5 in defense.
4) In '94, it's true, the Knicks & Rockers were the two best defense teams and only meh on offense.

So three years of our those four, offense won the title. Defense very much did in the fourth.

Also -

5) The league's scoring average per possession in '94 was roughly the same as from the 2010 - 2015 seasons.

Basically, the grabbing and clutching scored the game by slowing it down, but it didn't make for more effective defense per possession. The result instead was an uglier, slower product, without actually having the benefit of better defense.

Bulls were still an awfully good defense those years and 2 of those 3 finals their defense imo was the bigger difference maker. Suns being the exception. Not sure where I stand on this, but I can see both sides.

[Ice Man]

Are you using per game statistics, which is what most observers at the time referred to?

...or Offensive Rating, a metric that literally didn't exist at the time?

Offensive Rating, that is points per 100 possessions. Your point is fairly taken ... the Bulls were a slow-paced team, so on points per game they weren't the best in the league those years. Top 5 to 7.

The '93 Suns were runners and gunners, so they did lead the league in scoring as well as Offensive Rating.

[ItsDanger]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot on its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

[liquidswords]

Nostalgia - people want to believe the things they admired when they were younger are greater than they actually are.

[Ice Man]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot in its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

You're welcome to watch this game -- a typical high-level regular season game, in 1989, between the defending champ Lakers and the previous Eastern Conference Finalist Bulls -- and list for us the physical elements that wouldn't occur today.

Watch on YouTube

[liquidswords]

Watching that video above, I think my favorite part of the physicality/defense delusion is defenders jumping straight up to defend a rim attacker only for the rim attacker to float right around them

[The4thHorseman]

Because the 90s didn’t have the Trae Young, Brunson type flopping that we see in today game.

you think players weren't flopping in the 90s? lol

No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.

Rodman's many years of exaggerated contact laughs at your response.

[bledredwine]

you think players weren't flopping in the 90s? lol

No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.

Rodman's many years of exaggerated contact laughs at your response.

I'll show you some contact, and if you refuse, I know that you're just denying the obvious.

Watch on YouTube

Go ahead and point out the contact in the lebron video.... or anything that isn't wide open for that matter.
This defense is a joke

Now, watch the Pistons.

Watch on YouTube

Hell, compare the Lebron GS vid with with the 2nd worst defensive team in the below video.

Watch on YouTube

You see, your eyes deceive you. Take 2:15 for example. It looks like there's no contact, and then you pay attention to
the resistance of the replay. That was real handchecking.

And this is a 90s game with way less contact than the 80s battles. This is one of the poorest defensive teams that year.

Then 2:50, 2:52, 2:55, 3:32... Jordan had to do way more to avoid contact than anything in that pillow soft Lebron GS video. 4:04? He literally
'had to dunk around a guy. Today? That's an open dunk every day. 4:55 you can't even get around a guy.

The Bulls were able to avoid a lot of contact simply because they used transition as a strategy. But if it's a half court set? There's
more contact and it's tougher to drive around guys, no question.

[Nuntius]

No, not even close to the same level that it's happening now. Vlade was the only one that was really doing it back then.

there you go, you just answered the question lol

players were, people just don't remember them as distinctly. You can go back and find many such cases that just aren't fresh in everyone's minds

Vlade was a nobody. None of the stars players were regularly flopping and exaggerating contact. You think that guys in the 90s had mastered flopping to the same degree as they have now?

Vlade is literally on the Hall of Fame, my man. Since when is a HoFer a nobody?

Jasonxxx102 is right. Just like you have largely forgotten about Vlade because bigger stars existed, the future generations will forget about guys like Trae Young since bigger stars exist.

[Bush4Ever]

The unfortunate answer is that it's largely driven by psychologically-damaged oldheads (either literal boomers or adjacent to them with boomer brains) who want to be associated with something tough and "alpha", because they can't handle the fact that they are personally soft and (most of them) were blessed with an incredibly privileged and easy life compared to other generational cohorts (on either side of them mind you, both older and younger generations recognize this). It's not a coincidence the more and more those types lose their power and influence, the more and more they cling to the narrative.

The guy at the local bar who is balding with a potbelly, single and possessing "that look"...who stills wears his letterman jacket telling the grand tale of how he scored TWO touchdowns in a high school football game 30 years ago...that is the guy who will claim today's game is "soft", while everyone "back then" [insert any variety of tough/alpha/hardnose/epic ultimate narrative here].

You can tell it's psychology-based because they extend this myth to the 80s (absolutely zero claim of especially physical defense on net), the early 90s (not unusually physical), as well as the mid to late 90s (true, but mostly because they stunk at offense, spacing, floor warping, and everything that makes it harder to be physical in the first place, not because of something related to attitude and personality attributes--FFS there was meaningful overlap in personnel from 1998 vs. 1992...a lot of them players were the same!).

[ItsDanger]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot in its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

You're welcome to watch this game -- a typical high-level regular season game, in 1989, between the defending champ Lakers and the previous Eastern Conference Finalist Bulls -- and list for us the physical elements that wouldn't occur today.

Watch on YouTube

These 1 game samples are amusing.

[Ice Man]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot in its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

You're welcome to watch this game -- a typical high-level regular season game, in 1989, between the defending champ Lakers and the previous Eastern Conference Finalist Bulls -- and list for us the physical elements that wouldn't occur today.

Watch on YouTube

These 1 game samples are amusing.

I watched every Bulls game from 1988 through 1998, but it would take us a bit long to go through that list. At any rate, watching a full game is more instructive than the usual method, which is to pull out a clip of a dirty play (like Rodman pushing Pippen in the back, or McHale clotheslining Rambis) that presenting it as typical of the era, even though the very reason that play is remembered is because it was so unusual.

[trickshot]

I always liken this myth to Curry/Lebron fans in 2045 using clips of Draymond Green to prove their time was modern day gladiators.

[kartexpert]

It speaks to how weak the 90s actually were.

This is just one random list, but gives you an idea:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1342439-legends-of-the-nba-25-best-players-of-the-90s

Reggie was the 4th best wing after Jordan/Pippen/Drexler on this list. That is pretty wild, even if someone has a differing opinion, there aren't a ton of options to put ahead of him

Reggie was ranked #13 overall. The past couple years has guys like Sabonis, Randle, Young, Towns, Fox on third-team All-NBA (roughly #11-15 in the league). I don’t think you can seriously think they are all much better players than Miller was.

[dhsilv2]

It speaks to how weak the 90s actually were.

This is just one random list, but gives you an idea:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1342439-legends-of-the-nba-25-best-players-of-the-90s

Reggie was the 4th best wing after Jordan/Pippen/Drexler on this list. That is pretty wild, even if someone has a differing opinion, there aren't a ton of options to put ahead of him

Reggie was ranked #13 overall. The past couple years has guys like Sabonis, Randle, Young, Towns, Fox on third-team All-NBA (roughly #11-15 in the league). I don’t think you can seriously think they are all much better players than Miller was.

They gave Kemp at 11 ahead of Reggie which is complete nonsense. As are the poor choices of not giving Reggie more allstar appearances and all nba's in his own era.

But you're now comparing a single season today vs a full decade then. I better have a better 13th player over 10 full season compare to this single year with injuries and all that.

[dhsilv2]

Myth? Today's game is soft, far less physical contact. Just consider that the 3 point volume would decrease physical contact a lot in its own, aside from other obvious factors. Not sure why this topic is rehashed so often. Insecurity I guess. The NBA product is getting worse. Deal with it. Not everything is a constant.

You're welcome to watch this game -- a typical high-level regular season game, in 1989, between the defending champ Lakers and the previous Eastern Conference Finalist Bulls -- and list for us the physical elements that wouldn't occur today.

Watch on YouTube

These 1 game samples are amusing.

I mean we can pull 50 games off youtube...are you going to watch them all? But you won't see anything different unless we pick a few knicks heat games or some one off crazy outlier. Otherwise this is what the era's games mostly looked like.

[dhsilv2]

there you go, you just answered the question lol

players were, people just don't remember them as distinctly. You can go back and find many such cases that just aren't fresh in everyone's minds

Vlade was a nobody. None of the stars players were regularly flopping and exaggerating contact. You think that guys in the 90s had mastered flopping to the same degree as they have now?

Vlade is literally on the Hall of Fame, my man. Since when is a HoFer a nobody?

Jasonxxx102 is right. Just like you have largely forgotten about Vlade because bigger stars existed, the future generations will forget about guys like Trae Young since bigger stars exist.

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Watch on YouTube

[Rawbo619]

It was more physical. Point blank.

[HomoSapien]

So many salty people on this forum. Just learn to enjoy life.

[tsherkin]

The fact Stockton and Malone are being forgotten...two famous floppers is pretty wild. There was Reggie and his leg kicks to draw fouls. Yes, we have more today, but to act like it wasn't a part of the game is wild.

Or lets hear about how bad it was getting 20 years before Vlade...

Old Jordan was pretty bad about kicking out on his fadeaways.

Kobe's rip-through BS became an actual NBA rule in order to stop it. Paul Pierce was another dude who was all about initiating contact.

It's weird to look at today's game and say this is when flopping got bad. People have been complaining about it forever, and there have always been FT merchants. People are just looking to whine about today's game. Such people will never appreciate the positive developments, and will reach for anything they can to denigrate the current period.