2024-25 NBA Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt. 4: Who is the ROY?)

[Marvin Martian]

So, really hard to feel passionately this year about things, but my question about Castle's scoring and efficiency is this:

Does Castle being an inefficient volume shooter during the dregs of the year after Wemby's injury lead us to believe Castle will be a good fit with a Wemby-based offense?

Seems like Michael Carter-Williams-ish fool's gold to me.

Of course I'm not saying Castle can't improve and if the potential for improvement is what you're excited about that's fine, but I feel like we're going to have to tally re-evaluate Castle next year when we see how he's slotted back in on Wemby's team, and we shouldn't be surprised if he ends up a Dejounte Murray-esque trade asset rather than a Spur building block.

But I've not paid as close attention as people in this thread, so I'm curious what y'all have to say.

Obviously, Castle maybe not being quite as impressive as people think doesn't mean he can't win ROY in this weak year, but I feel like there's not much of a question as to whether the Hawks still pick the same guy at #1 in a re-draft.

Castle has been pretty efficient lately. Difference between him and Murray is that Castle can get to the ft line 10 times a game and Murray cannot. Castle's ft rate as a rookie is higher than Murray ever was, so Castle doesn't need to be a great shooter.

As a matter of fact, if Castle just reduces his 3pt attempts, his efficiency would be even better

[Bornstellar]

None of us are worried about Castle's efficiency. I mean when are rookies really ever efficient players when they come into the league with a large role? First half of the year he was getting his feet wet and was constantly getting jerked around in and out of lineups by our interim coach. Then Victor and Fox went down and he's basically had to shoulder a huge offensive load as a 20 year old rookie on a team devoid of talent and other options on both ends of the floor. Cut him some damn slack. Not even KD was efficient in his rookie season. But the tools are all there. We've seen flashes all year and the kid is obviously immensely talented and can get to the rim with ease. He is clearly the ROY this year. And I have zero doubt he will improve his efficiency as most players do after their rookie years

[G R E Y]

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[G R E Y]

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[ReggiesKnicks]

I'm curious to see how Fox and Castle grow as a back-court tandem. Castle is such a mismatch at Point Guard when he can bully smaller players while being a massive boon defensively as his size.

He was really aggressive against Golden State and they didn't have a clean answer for him.

[ReggiesKnicks]

None of us are worried about Castle's efficiency. I mean when are rookies really ever efficient players when they come into the league with a large role?

Is this rhetorical?

I posted all the past ROY and their respecting TS+ in my post.

[Doctor MJ]

So, really hard to feel passionately this year about things, but my question about Castle's scoring and efficiency is this:

Does Castle being an inefficient volume shooter during the dregs of the year after Wemby's injury lead us to believe Castle will be a good fit with a Wemby-based offense?

Seems like Michael Carter-Williams-ish fool's gold to me.

Of course I'm not saying Castle can't improve and if the potential for improvement is what you're excited about that's fine, but I feel like we're going to have to tally re-evaluate Castle next year when we see how he's slotted back in on Wemby's team, and we shouldn't be surprised if he ends up a Dejounte Murray-esque trade asset rather than a Spur building block.

But I've not paid as close attention as people in this thread, so I'm curious what y'all have to say.

Obviously, Castle maybe not being quite as impressive as people think doesn't mean he can't win ROY in this weak year, but I feel like there's not much of a question as to whether the Hawks still pick the same guy at #1 in a re-draft.

Castle has been pretty efficient lately. Difference between him and Murray is that Castle can get to the ft line 10 times a game and Murray cannot. Castle's ft rate as a rookie is higher than Murray ever was, so Castle doesn't need to be a great shooter.

As a matter of fact, if Castle just reduces his 3pt attempts, his efficiency would be even better

If Castle can indeed get to the FT line 10 times per game that will be a big deal, but he really hasn't been anything close to that, and his peak numbers are having without Wemby. I doubt Castle gets to the line a ton unless the Spurs let him be the focus of the offense, and I can't imagine anyone but Wemby will be the focus of the offense.

You're right though, he is improving his efficiency some.

[Bornstellar]

None of us are worried about Castle's efficiency. I mean when are rookies really ever efficient players when they come into the league with a large role?

Is this rhetorical?

I posted all the past ROY and their respecting TS+ in my post.

Yeah, and none of them were efficient. Yes, Castle is less efficient than most, but again, none of us really care about the efficiency right now, that will come with time.

Castle is going to win ROY, whether anyone likes it or not, so at this point I'm not going to defend him winning the award or argue that so and so had better production or whatever. This thread is about who is the ROY and it's going to be Steph. We can opine about his future efficiency but in the end only the results will speak for themselves.

[ReggiesKnicks]

None of us are worried about Castle's efficiency. I mean when are rookies really ever efficient players when they come into the league with a large role?

Is this rhetorical?

I posted all the past ROY and their respecting TS+ in my post.

Yeah, and none of them were efficient. Yes, Castle is less efficient than most, but again, none of us really care about the efficiency right now, that will come with time.

Castle is going to win ROY, whether anyone likes it or not, so at this point I'm not going to defend him winning the award or argue that so and so had better production or whatever. This thread is about who is the ROY and it's going to be Steph. We can opine about his future efficiency but in the end only the results will speak for themselves.

You can't just waive off efficiency. It may be less important but acting like it doesn't matter is poor player assessment and wreaks of bias.

Nobody here is arguing otherwise. I simply added more context to Castle and highlighted why Risacher is a strong ROY candidate. Then I got called out for being biased and cherry-picking data when I quoted statistics posted about Castle?

Make it make sense my friend

It's a shame this thread has been overtaken by Castle stans and not "rookie discussion fans".

[Bornstellar]

Is this rhetorical?

I posted all the past ROY and their respecting TS+ in my post.

Yeah, and none of them were efficient. Yes, Castle is less efficient than most, but again, none of us really care about the efficiency right now, that will come with time.

Castle is going to win ROY, whether anyone likes it or not, so at this point I'm not going to defend him winning the award or argue that so and so had better production or whatever. This thread is about who is the ROY and it's going to be Steph. We can opine about his future efficiency but in the end only the results will speak for themselves.

You can't just waive off efficiency. It may be less important but acting like it doesn't matter is poor player assessment and wreaks of bias.

Nobody here is arguing otherwise. I simply added more context to Castle and highlighted why Risacher is a strong ROY candidate. Then I got called out for being biased and cherry-picking data when I quoted statistics posted about Castle?

Make it make sense my friend

It's a shame this thread has been overtaken by Castle stans and not "rookie discussion fans".

Reeks*

No one said it didn't matter. Again, this thread is about who will win ROY. Castle WILL be the ROY, 100%. I'm obviously a Spurs fan so yeah I my assessment is almost certainly biased, I'm not disputing it. All I'm saying is continuing to harp on efficiency, when rookies have never been particularly efficient, is pointless. And I know most of you in here don't even watch the kid play so what's the point, it's not like there is any context in these discussions, just people pulling up data and scouring it and nitpicking.

You think Castle is not efficient and won't be going forward, I get it. He will still be the 2025 ROY. I am not trying to be a douche and I'm not the one who called you our for being biased or cherry picking stats. I'm just relaying my own personal opinion that yes, he is not particularly efficient, but he is a rookie and Spurs fans are not particularly concerned about it. Same thing people kept saying all of last season about Wemby. It will come in time. If he stinks next year still then by all means please make me eat the crow

[ReggiesKnicks]

Reeks*

English isn't my first language and my computer didn't catch the spelling. Thanks for pointing this out.

No one said it didn't matter. Again, this thread is about who will win ROY. Castle WILL be the ROY, 100%. I don't really care if you think my assessment is biased or not. I'm obviously a Spurs fan so yeah I am biased, I'm not disputing it. All I'm saying is continuing to harp on efficiency, when rookies have never been particularly efficient, is pointless. And I know most of you in here don't even watch the kid play so what's the point, it's not like there is any context in these discussions, just people pulling up data and scouring it and nitpicking.

You think Castle is not efficient and won't be going forward. Good for you. He will still be the 2025 ROY

The thread title is "Rookie Discussion Thread", which I think merits more than simply the ROY, who is Castle. I'm excited to see Castle develop next to a non-shooting, downhill Point Guard in Fox because it isn't an ideal developmental environment for a player of Castle's skill-set.

[Bornstellar]

Reeks*

English isn't my first language and my computer didn't catch the spelling. Thanks for pointing this out.

No one said it didn't matter. Again, this thread is about who will win ROY. Castle WILL be the ROY, 100%. I don't really care if you think my assessment is biased or not. I'm obviously a Spurs fan so yeah I am biased, I'm not disputing it. All I'm saying is continuing to harp on efficiency, when rookies have never been particularly efficient, is pointless. And I know most of you in here don't even watch the kid play so what's the point, it's not like there is any context in these discussions, just people pulling up data and scouring it and nitpicking.

You think Castle is not efficient and won't be going forward. Good for you. He will still be the 2025 ROY

The thread title is "Rookie Discussion Thread", which I think merits more than simply the ROY, who is Castle. I'm excited to see Castle develop next to a non-shooting, downhill Point Guard in Fox because it isn't an ideal developmental environment for a player of Castle's skill-set.

Dude you reply so fast I tried to delete that and repost in response to your last edit and you replied within like 30 seconds

I'll concede though, you're right this is a rookie discussion thread so these discussions are certainly warranted. All I'm saying is I'm not worried about his efficiency in the long run. Most players improve after their rookie seasons and Steph has improved pretty dramatically from the beginning of the season already

Also I was just being cheeky about the spelling error, didn't realize English was not your first language so my bad, now I feel like a douche

[G R E Y]

Reeks*

English isn't my first language and my computer didn't catch the spelling. Thanks for pointing this out.

No one said it didn't matter. Again, this thread is about who will win ROY. Castle WILL be the ROY, 100%. I don't really care if you think my assessment is biased or not. I'm obviously a Spurs fan so yeah I am biased, I'm not disputing it. All I'm saying is continuing to harp on efficiency, when rookies have never been particularly efficient, is pointless. And I know most of you in here don't even watch the kid play so what's the point, it's not like there is any context in these discussions, just people pulling up data and scouring it and nitpicking.

You think Castle is not efficient and won't be going forward. Good for you. He will still be the 2025 ROY

The thread title is "Rookie Discussion Thread", which I think merits more than simply the ROY, who is Castle. I'm excited to see Castle develop next to a non-shooting, downhill Point Guard in Fox because it isn't an ideal developmental environment for a player of Castle's skill-set.

Dude you reply so fast I tried to delete that and repost in response to your last edit and you replied within like 30 seconds

I'll concede though, you're right this is a rookie discussion thread so these discussions are certainly warranted. All I'm saying is I'm not worried about his efficiency in the long run. Most players improve after their rookie seasons and Steph has improved pretty dramatically from the beginning of the season already

Also I was just being cheeky about the spelling error, didn't realize English was not your first language so my bad, now I feel like a douche

The thing is, even when pointing out now unarguably great players who were inefficient as rookies does not assuage the efficiency tripling down. And when it's pointed out that SC does a lot of other things beyond scoring, back to efficiency and win shares or whatever. Like every rookie on every team has the same role or is on a team at the same level as another.

[G R E Y]

Reeks*

English isn't my first language and my computer didn't catch the spelling. Thanks for pointing this out.

No one said it didn't matter. Again, this thread is about who will win ROY. Castle WILL be the ROY, 100%. I don't really care if you think my assessment is biased or not. I'm obviously a Spurs fan so yeah I am biased, I'm not disputing it. All I'm saying is continuing to harp on efficiency, when rookies have never been particularly efficient, is pointless. And I know most of you in here don't even watch the kid play so what's the point, it's not like there is any context in these discussions, just people pulling up data and scouring it and nitpicking.

You think Castle is not efficient and won't be going forward. Good for you. He will still be the 2025 ROY

The thread title is "Rookie Discussion Thread", which I think merits more than simply the ROY, who is Castle. I'm excited to see Castle develop next to a non-shooting, downhill Point Guard in Fox because it isn't an ideal developmental environment for a player of Castle's skill-set.

Dude you reply so fast I tried to delete that and repost in response to your last edit and you replied within like 30 seconds

I'll concede though, you're right this is a rookie discussion thread so these discussions are certainly warranted. All I'm saying is I'm not worried about his efficiency in the long run. Most players improve after their rookie seasons and Steph has improved pretty dramatically from the beginning of the season already

Also I was just being cheeky about the spelling error, didn't realize English was not your first language so my bad, now I feel like a douche

The thing is, even when pointing out now unarguably great players who were inefficient as rookies does not assuage the efficiency tripling down. And when it's pointed out that SC does a lot of other things beyond scoring, back to efficiency and win shares or whatever. Like every rookie on every team has the same role or is on a team at the same level as another.

[Catchall]

Welp, Filipowski wrecked the Jazz's tank tonight with 30 pts, 18 rebs, 5 asts, 3 stls, 2 blks.

His ascension Probably means Kessler is definitely being traded in the off season (calling SlimShady83 lol)

Flip is more of a 4, imo.

[ReggiesKnicks]

English isn't my first language and my computer didn't catch the spelling. Thanks for pointing this out.



The thread title is "Rookie Discussion Thread", which I think merits more than simply the ROY, who is Castle. I'm excited to see Castle develop next to a non-shooting, downhill Point Guard in Fox because it isn't an ideal developmental environment for a player of Castle's skill-set.

Dude you reply so fast I tried to delete that and repost in response to your last edit and you replied within like 30 seconds

I'll concede though, you're right this is a rookie discussion thread so these discussions are certainly warranted. All I'm saying is I'm not worried about his efficiency in the long run. Most players improve after their rookie seasons and Steph has improved pretty dramatically from the beginning of the season already

Also I was just being cheeky about the spelling error, didn't realize English was not your first language so my bad, now I feel like a douche

The thing is, even when pointing out now unarguably great players who were inefficient as rookies does not assuage the efficiency tripling down. And when it's pointed out that SC does a lot of other things beyond scoring, back to efficiency and win shares or whatever. Like every rookie on every team has the same role or is on a team at the same level as another.

Right, and this is important.

Perhaps Castle is more efficient on a team with more playmaking. It's also possible Castle has less assists on a team where he has a smaller role like playing next to Trae young.

Context is always important and when assessing rookies, which is why it is important to project rookies into rolls that they would be in in the future. Risacher has a very clear role as a better defending Cameron Johnson with more on ball juice and potential. That's a very good NBA players who all 30 teams would covet.

It's easy to love Castle when you can look at two players out of dozens In Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard and say that Castle will have a similar developmental curve as those two. It is worth pointing out that both Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard had reached or exceeded their 99th percentile player profile when entering the NBA.

If we want to assess players based on reaching or exceed either their 99th percentile outcome, perhaps we should be talking about Reed Shepherd and Rob Dillingham.

I want to be clear on what my stance is regarding Castle and Risacher: Both are sought after prospects for good reason.

[Rustyman]

Even though I am a Spurs fan, I have not been as high on Castle as many Spurs fans largely because of his efficiency and shooting in general.

Now that the season is nearly ended, I must admit that my evaluation of his ceiling has changed. He just does so much more than simply shooting, passing, rebounding, defending, savvy, hesitation, reading of the game, etc.

Initially I though his upside was a better Derek White and if you will know that coming from a Spurs fan that is a complement.

While I still have concerns about his efficiency, I see a Brunson as his expected outcome and shades of Shay if he puts it all together.

[The Master]

It's easy to love Castle when you can look at two players out of dozens In Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard and say that Castle will have a similar developmental curve as those two. It is worth pointing out that both Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard had reached or exceeded their 99th percentile player profile when entering the NBA.

Is this that drastic in case of Castle? 2 players out of dozens?

He shows all-star level potential as a finisher/foul scorer (6FTA since late February)/secondary playmaker/ballhandler/defender - and that wasn't a case with Kawhi or Jimmy when they were 20.

Castle can't shoot - and him regressing in FT% vs college season is concerning - but shooting is actually the easiest offensive skill to fix, and here we have many more examples than Kawhi or to lesser extent Butler to see that it is in fact doable. Castle with Jaylen Brown-level jumper will be an allstar easily IMHO and I don't think Brown was a better shooter in college.

I'm not saying Castle will get there - actually, this is how nowadays wide is difference between floor and ceiling projections due to shooting factor - but I find it realistic, his shooting touch and motion isn't bad per se.

[G R E Y]

It's easy to love Castle when you can look at two players out of dozens In Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard and say that Castle will have a similar developmental curve as those two. It is worth pointing out that both Jimmy Butler and Kawhi Leonard had reached or exceeded their 99th percentile player profile when entering the NBA.

Is this that drastic in case of Castle? 2 players out of dozens?

He shows all-star level potential as a finisher/foul scorer (6FTA since late February)/secondary playmaker/ballhandler/defender - and that wasn't a case with Kawhi or Jimmy when they were 20.

Castle can't shoot - and him regressing in FT% vs college season is concerning - but shooting is actually the easiest offensive skill to fix, and here we have many more examples than Kawhi or to lesser extent Butler to see that it is in fact doable. Castle with Jaylen Brown-level jumper will be an allstar easily IMHO and I don't think Brown was a better shooter in college.

I'm not saying Castle will get there - actually, this is how nowadays wide is difference between floor and ceiling projections due to shooting factor - but I find it realistic, his shooting touch and motion isn't bad per se.

Yeah it's not fundamentally broken and motions get adjusted or refined as well, when necessary.

I also believe that Spurs fans see what those who don't watch the team as much may not, and that's these unquantifiable aspects of a player's game or character. Like Castle *wants* the toughest D assignment, he goes at the best opposing players, he keeps taking the shots he sucks at most, all the while still using what he does best, driving and getting to the FT line.

Speaking of which, fun quirky fact:

Risacher FT - 71.8% on 2 attempts per game

Castle FT - 71.5% on 4.2 attempts per game

[epfou1]

Risacher going off against the Nets.