How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet?

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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#121 » by DimesandKnicks » Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:05 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Brother...did you not see what OKC did? They were averaging 115.4 points per 100. That's only 3.9 under their regular season average....against a team with the 22nd rated defense. And in the playoffs teams scored...wait umm 6.6 less points per 100 when Jokic played. So clearly...wait...wait...oh Jokic was better on defense in the playoffs than regular season?

See exposed. As a decent playoff defender!


Jokic's 2025 playoff metrics on defense:

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT

He was 5th in deflections, behind Schroeder, Josh Hart, Luka, Kawhi and Sengun. Outside of Kawhi and Schroeder I don’t consider any of these players plus defenders

When defending the ball handler on a PNR, he’s 11 in FGM. Players shoot the 31st highest FG percentage against him out of 128, in otherwords he’s 97thish out of 128 in this situation

Jokic was second in DFGM and DFGA. A few spots after him is, again, Jamaal Murray, KAT is 8 spots below him. Jokic likely would have been first, meaning no other player had more points scored on them per game in the playoffs if the player in front of him, Zubac, wasn’t responsible for guarding him.

Def FG percentage he’s ranked 55 out of 74 players who’ve defended at least 5 shot attempts.
His diff is -1.9 which is significantly better than his -0.4 in the regular season, meaning players in the regular season only shot -0.4 percent worse when he was the closest player to them, and -1.9 in the playoffs. Still, that makes him 70 out of 133 players who defended at least 5 shots a game, ahead of him are Kat, Luka, Julius Randle, and Lebron James.

These are the same stats that that I gave in last years discussions (that either you dont remember, because you called me a liar, or just don't think matters more than deflections, rebounds and kick balls, the latter of which he had none during the playoffs and only had a 13 in the regular season, a few spots behind KAT's 21ish...again one of the worse defenders I've ever seen) and the numbers are pretty much the same. I'm not sure if you can reconcile with how this impacts points, but from my viewpoint, he gets scored on the most - despite never being tasked to defend a high level offensive player-and opposing players are relatively efficient when he's the only threat between them and the basket.


So quantify it


What does quantify it mean to you? For me it means to measure or express something with numbers which I just did
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#122 » by Top10alltime » Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:11 pm

hardenASG13 wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:It's because he only has 1 title. People saying it's because he doesn't play defence are lying because they have Magic and Steph in their top-10, and both of those guys were traffic cones on defence.

Jokic's biggest mistake was not leaving Denver. Same with Giannis in Milwaukee. Both guys are easily top-15 all-time players in terms of talent. But they won't get taken seriously by sports historians because they're going to retire with just 1 title each.

LeBron and KD realized the importance of rings and started ring-chasing at an early age. These Euros are too loyal to the teams that draft them. Luka's career was saved by Adam Silver. Dude would have retired ringless on the Mavs.


To the bolded, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.


Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.


Magic has had the most stacked team of the 80s, Jokic' only decent teammate was Jamal Murray who is overrated (people acting like he some elite player :ROFL: ). Give Jokic a better team like it 23, I guarantee you he is replicating Magic' results. Now, that is not to say Magic is worse than Jokic (he might be offensively at this point due to clearing off the ball as a top 5 off-ball player all-time, and clearing at scoring as well), because he is until maybe this season if he keeps on having a season at the 2023-25 level. Jokic is a top ten scorer all-time and a top ten playmaker all-time undebatably. His post game already defeats anything Magic has offensively. He is a significantly better defender than Magic or Curry, and has been debunked many many times he's a poor defender. Only Jokic haters repeatedly say this, because of not watching the games.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#123 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:14 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
Jokic's 2025 playoff metrics on defense:

Opp point in the paint: 215 out of 219 qualifying players and last across the C position
Opp fast break points: Jokic — the huste back on defense guy — ranked 212 out of 219 players
Opp FG Made: Jokic was 160 out of 211, one spot ahead of Jamaal Murray
Opp FG percentage: 109 out of 209, a few spots ahead of KAT

He was 5th in deflections, behind Schroeder, Josh Hart, Luka, Kawhi and Sengun. Outside of Kawhi and Schroeder I don’t consider any of these players plus defenders

When defending the ball handler on a PNR, he’s 11 in FGM. Players shoot the 31st highest FG percentage against him out of 128, in otherwords he’s 97thish out of 128 in this situation

Jokic was second in DFGM and DFGA. A few spots after him is, again, Jamaal Murray, KAT is 8 spots below him. Jokic likely would have been first, meaning no other player had more points scored on them per game in the playoffs if the player in front of him, Zubac, wasn’t responsible for guarding him.

Def FG percentage he’s ranked 55 out of 74 players who’ve defended at least 5 shot attempts.
His diff is -1.9 which is significantly better than his -0.4 in the regular season, meaning players in the regular season only shot -0.4 percent worse when he was the closest player to them, and -1.9 in the playoffs. Still, that makes him 70 out of 133 players who defended at least 5 shots a game, ahead of him are Kat, Luka, Julius Randle, and Lebron James.

These are the same stats that that I gave in last years discussions (that either you dont remember, because you called me a liar, or just don't think matters more than deflections, rebounds and kick balls, the latter of which he had none during the playoffs and only had a 13 in the regular season, a few spots behind KAT's 21ish...again one of the worse defenders I've ever seen) and the numbers are pretty much the same. I'm not sure if you can reconcile with how this impacts points, but from my viewpoint, he gets scored on the most - despite never being tasked to defend a high level offensive player-and opposing players are relatively efficient when he's the only threat between them and the basket.


So quantify it


What does quantify it mean to you? For me it means to measure or express something with numbers which I just did


You listed a lot of stats. They don't tell me or anyone else what the impact on the final score they have. That's what I've been asking for. Case and point, the most shots against...ok that's generally a sign of good defense. Now we both know, Jokic's impact on shots is pretty marginal. So....how do you quantify the net impact here?

Now we know for a fact, that when Jokic is on the court and accounting for both his teammates and the other team, Jokic's team's defense is considerably better with him vs without. That's beating a dead horse. You're saying despite all that, the data above proves that Jokic is despite all that, still costing his team points. So I'm asking you to put numbers to it.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#124 » by DimesandKnicks » Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:17 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
So quantify it


What does quantify it mean to you? For me it means to measure or express something with numbers which I just did


You listed a lot of stats. They don't tell me or anyone else what the impact on the final score they have. That's what I've been asking for. Case and point, the most shots against...ok that's generally a sign of good defense. Now we both know, Jokic's impact on shots is pretty marginal. So....how do you quantify the net impact here?

Now we know for a fact, that when Jokic is on the court and accounting for both his teammates and the other team, Jokic's team's defense is considerably better with him vs without. That's beating a dead horse. You're saying despite all that, the data above proves that Jokic is despite all that, still costing his team points. So I'm asking you to put numbers to it.


How is being scored on the most a sign of good defense?
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#125 » by dhsilv2 » Mon Sep 22, 2025 10:32 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
What does quantify it mean to you? For me it means to measure or express something with numbers which I just did


You listed a lot of stats. They don't tell me or anyone else what the impact on the final score they have. That's what I've been asking for. Case and point, the most shots against...ok that's generally a sign of good defense. Now we both know, Jokic's impact on shots is pretty marginal. So....how do you quantify the net impact here?

Now we know for a fact, that when Jokic is on the court and accounting for both his teammates and the other team, Jokic's team's defense is considerably better with him vs without. That's beating a dead horse. You're saying despite all that, the data above proves that Jokic is despite all that, still costing his team points. So I'm asking you to put numbers to it.


How is being scored on the most a sign of good defense?


Not being in the play because you got lost is a sign of bad defense. Being in the play to be scored on means you were challenging the shot.

This is like asking if team score more when open or not....
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#126 » by CharityStripe34 » Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:10 pm

Why is there such a rush lately to try and contextualize modern athletes in all time discussion?

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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#127 » by DimesandKnicks » Mon Sep 22, 2025 11:38 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
You listed a lot of stats. They don't tell me or anyone else what the impact on the final score they have. That's what I've been asking for. Case and point, the most shots against...ok that's generally a sign of good defense. Now we both know, Jokic's impact on shots is pretty marginal. So....how do you quantify the net impact here?

Now we know for a fact, that when Jokic is on the court and accounting for both his teammates and the other team, Jokic's team's defense is considerably better with him vs without. That's beating a dead horse. You're saying despite all that, the data above proves that Jokic is despite all that, still costing his team points. So I'm asking you to put numbers to it.


How is being scored on the most a sign of good defense?


Not being in the play because you got lost is a sign of bad defense. Being in the play to be scored on means you were challenging the shot.

This is like asking if team score more when open or not....


Or always being in the play because players only shoot -0.4 worse than average when your defending them so the coach keeps putting u in PNR action?
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#128 » by hardenASG13 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 1:28 am

Top10alltime wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
To the bolded, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.


Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.


Magic has had the most stacked team of the 80s, Jokic' only decent teammate was Jamal Murray who is overrated (people acting like he some elite player :ROFL: ). Give Jokic a better team like it 23, I guarantee you he is replicating Magic' results. Now, that is not to say Magic is worse than Jokic (he might be offensively at this point due to clearing off the ball as a top 5 off-ball player all-time, and clearing at scoring as well), because he is until maybe this season if he keeps on having a season at the 2023-25 level. Jokic is a top ten scorer all-time and a top ten playmaker all-time undebatably. His post game already defeats anything Magic has offensively. He is a significantly better defender than Magic or Curry, and has been debunked many many times he's a poor defender. Only Jokic haters repeatedly say this, because of not watching the games.


I don't deny magic had a stacked team. Those 80s Celtics, Sixers and Pistons teams LA was beating in the finals were levels ahead of the 23'Miami Heat though. You can hypothesize, but no, you can't guarantee Jokic would replacate the results, against those types of teams. Hes never beat a team of that caliber.That's why you can debate him not being top 15. Guys in the top 15 aren't "what they couldve done" guys, they're guys who got it done, often repeatedly.

I do watch Jokic, admittedly mostly in the playoffs. I see really good, not great. I'm unimpressed by his playoff track record at standards of a top 15 player. The 23 title was a weak field (as was giannis in 21). Neither have done anything outside of those runs. I think his defense is an issue (his team was forced to play zone vs OKC, and it almost worked due to OKC missing open jumpers), and his playstyle limits his teams dribble penetration. Jokic getting 10 assists on handoffs and cuts off him aren't the same effect as a guy getting 10 assists pushing the break and collapsing the defense off the dribble all night.

And, no, he isn't a top 10 scorer of all time. He has been in the top 5 is ppg one time in his career, this season! His efficiency doesn't make up for the lack of points. Name another top 10 all time scorer who didn't finish in the top 5 in ppg in any of his first 9 seasons. It's a crazy notion. He shoots a more selective volume of shots than most superstars. That's cool, I guess. I haven't seen that all time great ceiling out of him.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#129 » by hardenASG13 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 1:44 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
To the bolded, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.


Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.


Magic played with 19x All-Star/15x All-NBA/6x MVP, Kareem Abdul Jabar, and 7x All-Star/2x All-NBA, James Worthy.

Curry played with 15x All-Star/11x All-NBA/1x MVP, Kevin Durant, and 5x All-Star/2x All-NBA, Klay Thomspon.

Jokic's second best player is 0x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Jamal Murray.

Giannis' second best player was 3x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Khris Middleton.



That's fine. But the guys in top 15 aren't "what they couldve done with more help guys". They're guys who won titles and repeatedly made deep playoff runs. That's why they're there.

If looking at variables around the players, you should also look at caliber of finals opponents (thus needing more help) and teams in the league in general for guys like Magic and Curry, vs the caliber of teams in the NBA since 2020, where there aren't multiple superteams every year, or really any teams with continued success (Boston, I guess, and OKC on the verge)and where Jokic and Giannis have experienced their peak.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#130 » by hagredionis » Tue Sep 23, 2025 1:51 am

Raps in 4 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Top10alltime wrote:
To the bolded, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: . Giannis' isn't a top 50 all-time player. He sucks and isn't elite on either end. Isn't top 30 defensively or top 50 offensively. He is the most overrated, horrible basketball player ever, and is only good at finishing, transition, and drive and kick neutralized by elite personnel. His sub elite rim protection and roaming isn't good enough to even put him over Shaq defensively. Giannis' is just horrible whether people like it or not. Jokic isn't.

To the underlined, I want EVERYONE to hear this out. If Jokic is bad at defense, why are we putting Steph & Magic in the top 10 all-time, when they're worse than Jokic on defense objectively, by about every measure (yes, including rim protection). Please, answer the question.


Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.


Magic played with 19x All-Star/15x All-NBA/6x MVP, Kareem Abdul Jabar, and 7x All-Star/2x All-NBA, James Worthy.

Curry played with 15x All-Star/11x All-NBA/1x MVP, Kevin Durant, and 5x All-Star/2x All-NBA, Klay Thomspon.

Jokic's second best player is 0x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Jamal Murray.

Giannis' second best player was 3x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Khris Middleton.


That's a bit misleading tho isn't it. KAJ wasn't in his prime anymore especially not when Magic won his last titles, for example in 1987-88 he averaged 14.6 pts in the regular season and 14.1 pts in the playoffs. In 1988-1989 KAJ only averaged 10.1 pts in the regular season and 11.1 pts in the playoff and Magic still got his team to the finals. Meanwhile this past season Jokic had 5 guys scoring more than that including Murray scoring 21.4 pts.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#131 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 2:41 am

hagredionis wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.


Magic played with 19x All-Star/15x All-NBA/6x MVP, Kareem Abdul Jabar, and 7x All-Star/2x All-NBA, James Worthy.

Curry played with 15x All-Star/11x All-NBA/1x MVP, Kevin Durant, and 5x All-Star/2x All-NBA, Klay Thomspon.

Jokic's second best player is 0x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Jamal Murray.

Giannis' second best player was 3x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Khris Middleton.


That's a bit misleading tho isn't it. KAJ wasn't in his prime anymore especially not when Magic won his last titles, for example in 1987-88 he averaged 14.6 pts in the regular season and 14.1 pts in the playoffs. In 1988-1989 KAJ only averaged 10.1 pts in the regular season and 11.1 pts in the playoff and Magic still got his team to the finals. Meanwhile this past season Jokic had 5 guys scoring more than that including Murray scoring 21.4 pts.


Comparing PPG across eras is completely meaningless. Magic himself averaged just 19.6 PPG in 1987-88. Yes, KAJ was way past his prime for Magic's final 1-2 titles. But Worthy wasn't.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#132 » by Raps in 4 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 2:44 am

hardenASG13 wrote:
Raps in 4 wrote:
hardenASG13 wrote:
Magic had 5 titles and 9 finals appearances in his 13 year career. His Lakers teams averaged 59 wins per year. Curry has won 4 NBA finals, and made it 5 times, and led a team to 73 wins. Two of the titles were with a stacked deck, ill give you that. Both players warped an opposing defense (magic with his creativity and ability to get downhill, Curry with his movement and shooting ability) way more so than Jokic and his top of the key DHO/passing game and limited shot repetior (which boosts his apg and percentages, and has some here convinced hes more than what he is....until its time to play a good team in the playoffs. The same thing, that I agree, is true with Giannis). He doesn't warp an opposing defense to the levels of a curry or magic, not to mention his role as a center makes him being a poor defender more important than the defensive role of curry or magic.


Magic played with 19x All-Star/15x All-NBA/6x MVP, Kareem Abdul Jabar, and 7x All-Star/2x All-NBA, James Worthy.

Curry played with 15x All-Star/11x All-NBA/1x MVP, Kevin Durant, and 5x All-Star/2x All-NBA, Klay Thomspon.

Jokic's second best player is 0x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Jamal Murray.

Giannis' second best player was 3x All-Star/0x All-NBA player, Khris Middleton.



That's fine. But the guys in top 15 aren't "what they couldve done with more help guys". They're guys who won titles and repeatedly made deep playoff runs. That's why they're there.

If looking at variables around the players, you should also look at caliber of finals opponents (thus needing more help) and teams in the league in general for guys like Magic and Curry, vs the caliber of teams in the NBA since 2020, where there aren't multiple superteams every year, or really any teams with continued success (Boston, I guess, and OKC on the verge)and where Jokic and Giannis have experienced their peak.


The guys in the top-15 are all guys who played alongside other all-time greats.

Guys like Jokic, Giannis, Dirk, KG, etc. spent their careers on incompetent teams. Had each of them spent 5+ years playing with another NOFer, they would have multiple rings.

There is a reason why the guys with the most rings also had the best teammates. Basketball is a team sport.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#133 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 3:59 am

DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
How is being scored on the most a sign of good defense?


Not being in the play because you got lost is a sign of bad defense. Being in the play to be scored on means you were challenging the shot.

This is like asking if team score more when open or not....


Or always being in the play because players only shoot -0.4 worse than average when your defending them so the coach keeps putting u in PNR action?


If a team runs 15 of those plays a game. What's the difference in Jokic and an average defensive big man in terms of expected outcome? Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#134 » by DimesandKnicks » Tue Sep 23, 2025 11:47 am

dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
Not being in the play because you got lost is a sign of bad defense. Being in the play to be scored on means you were challenging the shot.

This is like asking if team score more when open or not....


Or always being in the play because players only shoot -0.4 worse than average when your defending them so the coach keeps putting u in PNR action?


If a team runs 15 of those plays a game. What's the difference in Jokic and an average defensive big man in terms of expected outcome?



Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?


The data I have available doesn't compare the difference in Jokic's defense compared to an average big man, but they compare the difference between Jokic defending a particular player in a particular spot and that players average. As previously stated this is the DIFF%

In this years playoffs, players shot 48.8 percent from the field, compared to 50.7 percent average, so again the difference is -1.9.

To add extra context, and tension to the idea that a player getting scored on the most is a reflection of good defense because they're in position to defend, which I think is absurd, here is the top 12 players in dfgm:

PLAYER TEAM AGE P GP G FREQDFGMFGA DFG%FG% DIFF%
Ivica Zubac LAC 28 C 7 7 100 11.0 22.6 48.7 52.0 -3.2
Nikola Jokić DEN 30 C 14 14 100 9.9 20.4 48.8 50.7 -1.9
Luka Dončić LAL 26 F-G 5 5 100 9.4 20.8 45.2 47.6 -2.5
Paolo Banchero ORL 22 F 5 5 100 9.4 18.2 51.6 46.6 5.1
Zach Edey MEM 23 C 4 4 100 9.0 17.8 50.7 51.2 -0.5
Tyler Herro MIA 25 G 4 4 100 8.8 15.5 56.5 46.4 10.1
Jamal Murray DEN 28 G 14 14 100 8.7 17.9 48.6 48.2 0.4
Rui Hachimura LAL 27 F 5 5 100 8.4 19.2 43.8 47.7 -4.0
Christian Braun DEN 24 G 14 14 100 8.0 18.9 42.4 47.7 -5.3
Karl-Anthony Towns NYK 29 C-F 18 18 100 7.8 16.7 46.7 48.9 -2.3
Scotty Pippen Jr. MEM 24 G 4 4 100 7.8 14.0 55.4 48.7 6.7
Jalen Brunson NYK 28 G 18 18 100 7.6 15.7 48.4 46.2 2.2

Out of that list of 12, Jokic only reduced the opposing players FG percentage compared to their average better than six bolded players:


Does it still make sense to you that DFGM is a sign of good defense? Considering who Jokic shares this list with?

Further, among centers, Jokic's -1.9 DIFF%, was 10th to last out of playoff C's who defended at least 5 shot attempts. Again, KAT is one spot ahead of him with -2.3.

Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?

If you can find a way to layer this data in knock yourself out. I currently cannot. But it should be noted that the Jokic doesn't foul narrative doesn't apply to the playoffs, where he actually defends a little better. He was 15th in fouls committed.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#135 » by Godymas » Tue Sep 23, 2025 12:05 pm

CharityStripe34 wrote:Why is there such a rush lately to try and contextualize modern athletes in all time discussion?

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using RealGM mobile app


It’s funny how Jokic is the guy they rush to put there too.

Definitely don’t see this for Giannis.

Let’s put it this way, people have a hard time putting Steph Curry top 10.


Jokic is not on Steph Curry’s tier all time, nor has he peaked higher offensively than Steph Curry did. However, now during his prime they’re trying to jam him into all time lists when the reality he’a closer to a Dirk with a chance to be on Hakeem’s level if he ever secures a second championship.

I think they’re afraid of what will really happen to Jokic 20 years from now if they don’t ram it down everyone’s throats that he’s some saving grace to Basketball today.
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#136 » by Top10alltime » Tue Sep 23, 2025 1:10 pm

Godymas wrote:
CharityStripe34 wrote:Why is there such a rush lately to try and contextualize modern athletes in all time discussion?

Sent from my Pixel 8 Pro using RealGM mobile app


It’s funny how Jokic is the guy they rush to put there too.

Definitely don’t see this for Giannis.


Let’s put it this way, people have a hard time putting Steph Curry top 10.


Jokic is not on Steph Curry’s tier all time, nor has he peaked higher offensively than Steph Curry did. However, now during his prime they’re trying to jam him into all time lists when the reality he’a closer to a Dirk with a chance to be on Hakeem’s level if he ever secures a second championship.

I think they’re afraid of what will really happen to Jokic 20 years from now if they don’t ram it down everyone’s throats that he’s some saving grace to Basketball today.


It's because Jokic is an arguable top 5 offensive player with good defense. Giannis' is not a guy that is elite on either end.

Jokic is clear top 15, while Giannis isn't top 50 all-time. Stop it. Jokic is already close to Steph's tier all-time, while clearing Dirk on both ends
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#137 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 1:42 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
Or always being in the play because players only shoot -0.4 worse than average when your defending them so the coach keeps putting u in PNR action?


If a team runs 15 of those plays a game. What's the difference in Jokic and an average defensive big man in terms of expected outcome?



Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?


The data I have available doesn't compare the difference in Jokic's defense compared to an average big man, but they compare the difference between Jokic defending a particular player in a particular spot and that players average. As previously stated this is the DIFF%

In this years playoffs, players shot 48.8 percent from the field, compared to 50.7 percent average, so again the difference is -1.9.

To add extra context, and tension to the idea that a player getting scored on the most is a reflection of good defense because they're in position to defend, which I think is absurd, here is the top 12 players in dfgm:

PLAYER TEAM AGE P GP G FREQDFGMFGA DFG%FG% DIFF%
Ivica Zubac LAC 28 C 7 7 100 11.0 22.6 48.7 52.0 -3.2
Nikola Jokić DEN 30 C 14 14 100 9.9 20.4 48.8 50.7 -1.9
Luka Dončić LAL 26 F-G 5 5 100 9.4 20.8 45.2 47.6 -2.5
Paolo Banchero ORL 22 F 5 5 100 9.4 18.2 51.6 46.6 5.1
Zach Edey MEM 23 C 4 4 100 9.0 17.8 50.7 51.2 -0.5
Tyler Herro MIA 25 G 4 4 100 8.8 15.5 56.5 46.4 10.1
Jamal Murray DEN 28 G 14 14 100 8.7 17.9 48.6 48.2 0.4
Rui Hachimura LAL 27 F 5 5 100 8.4 19.2 43.8 47.7 -4.0
Christian Braun DEN 24 G 14 14 100 8.0 18.9 42.4 47.7 -5.3
Karl-Anthony Towns NYK 29 C-F 18 18 100 7.8 16.7 46.7 48.9 -2.3
Scotty Pippen Jr. MEM 24 G 4 4 100 7.8 14.0 55.4 48.7 6.7
Jalen Brunson NYK 28 G 18 18 100 7.6 15.7 48.4 46.2 2.2

Out of that list of 12, Jokic only reduced the opposing players FG percentage compared to their average better than six bolded players:


Does it still make sense to you that DFGM is a sign of good defense? Considering who Jokic shares this list with?

Further, among centers, Jokic's -1.9 DIFF%, was 10th to last out of playoff C's who defended at least 5 shot attempts. Again, KAT is one spot ahead of him with -2.3.

Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?

If you can find a way to layer this data in knock yourself out. I currently cannot. But it should be noted that the Jokic doesn't foul narrative doesn't apply to the playoffs, where he actually defends a little better. He was 15th in fouls committed.



So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential. You have to do some elementry school level math. Just like yes, if you want to make your argument about Jokic's poor shot altering ability (something nobody has once disagreed with you on), you have to layer in turnovers. And again, yes you have to do the math yourself.

This is why I keep asking you to quantify your argument.

Here try an easy one. Using Jokic's shot blocking or lack there of. How many shots on Jokic vs the average starting center does it take to offset a single turnover?
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#138 » by DimesandKnicks » Tue Sep 23, 2025 3:12 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:



Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?


The data I have available doesn't compare the difference in Jokic's defense compared to an average big man, but they compare the difference between Jokic defending a particular player in a particular spot and that players average. As previously stated this is the DIFF%

In this years playoffs, players shot 48.8 percent from the field, compared to 50.7 percent average, so again the difference is -1.9.

To add extra context, and tension to the idea that a player getting scored on the most is a reflection of good defense because they're in position to defend, which I think is absurd, here is the top 12 players in dfgm:

PLAYER TEAM AGE P GP G FREQDFGMFGA DFG%FG% DIFF%
Ivica Zubac LAC 28 C 7 7 100 11.0 22.6 48.7 52.0 -3.2
Nikola Jokić DEN 30 C 14 14 100 9.9 20.4 48.8 50.7 -1.9
Luka Dončić LAL 26 F-G 5 5 100 9.4 20.8 45.2 47.6 -2.5
Paolo Banchero ORL 22 F 5 5 100 9.4 18.2 51.6 46.6 5.1
Zach Edey MEM 23 C 4 4 100 9.0 17.8 50.7 51.2 -0.5
Tyler Herro MIA 25 G 4 4 100 8.8 15.5 56.5 46.4 10.1
Jamal Murray DEN 28 G 14 14 100 8.7 17.9 48.6 48.2 0.4
Rui Hachimura LAL 27 F 5 5 100 8.4 19.2 43.8 47.7 -4.0
Christian Braun DEN 24 G 14 14 100 8.0 18.9 42.4 47.7 -5.3
Karl-Anthony Towns NYK 29 C-F 18 18 100 7.8 16.7 46.7 48.9 -2.3
Scotty Pippen Jr. MEM 24 G 4 4 100 7.8 14.0 55.4 48.7 6.7
Jalen Brunson NYK 28 G 18 18 100 7.6 15.7 48.4 46.2 2.2

Out of that list of 12, Jokic only reduced the opposing players FG percentage compared to their average better than six bolded players:


Does it still make sense to you that DFGM is a sign of good defense? Considering who Jokic shares this list with?

Further, among centers, Jokic's -1.9 DIFF%, was 10th to last out of playoff C's who defended at least 5 shot attempts. Again, KAT is one spot ahead of him with -2.3.

Once you do that, can we further add his low foul rates? And the added turnovers?

If you can find a way to layer this data in knock yourself out. I currently cannot. But it should be noted that the Jokic doesn't foul narrative doesn't apply to the playoffs, where he actually defends a little better. He was 15th in fouls committed.



So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential. You have to do some elementry school level math. Just like yes, if you want to make your argument about Jokic's poor shot altering ability (something nobody has once disagreed with you on), you have to layer in turnovers. And again, yes you have to do the math yourself.

This is why I keep asking you to quantify your argument.

Here try an easy one. Using Jokic's shot blocking or lack there of. How many shots on Jokic vs the average starting center does it take to offset a single turnover?


I have. It just isn't sufficient for you and that's fine with me. I have a life..so I'm not going to score the internet to find data to substantiate an argument with you that I'm satisfied with.

So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential.


As I said before, DIFF% is the best metric I have. Per NBA stats Glossary:

The difference between the normal percentage of a shooter on shots throughout the season and the percentage on shots when the defensive player or team is guarding the shooter. A good defensive number will be negative because the defensive player holds their opponent to a lower percentage than normal


So you can compare Jokic's DIFF% in the RS (which is awful) and in the Playoffs (which is better but still below average relative to other C's. Jokic also had zero kick balls in the playoffs according to the data. Not sure how to layer in two steals a game but I don't think forcing two turnovers compensates for giving up the second most points per game

Also the DFGA and DFGM isn't a refelction of how good a player is at "altering" a shot per say. It reflects how often the player in question is the closest play to the player who attempted the FGA
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#139 » by dhsilv2 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 3:22 pm

DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
The data I have available doesn't compare the difference in Jokic's defense compared to an average big man, but they compare the difference between Jokic defending a particular player in a particular spot and that players average. As previously stated this is the DIFF%

In this years playoffs, players shot 48.8 percent from the field, compared to 50.7 percent average, so again the difference is -1.9.

To add extra context, and tension to the idea that a player getting scored on the most is a reflection of good defense because they're in position to defend, which I think is absurd, here is the top 12 players in dfgm:

PLAYER TEAM AGE P GP G FREQDFGMFGA DFG%FG% DIFF%
Ivica Zubac LAC 28 C 7 7 100 11.0 22.6 48.7 52.0 -3.2
Nikola Jokić DEN 30 C 14 14 100 9.9 20.4 48.8 50.7 -1.9
Luka Dončić LAL 26 F-G 5 5 100 9.4 20.8 45.2 47.6 -2.5
Paolo Banchero ORL 22 F 5 5 100 9.4 18.2 51.6 46.6 5.1
Zach Edey MEM 23 C 4 4 100 9.0 17.8 50.7 51.2 -0.5
Tyler Herro MIA 25 G 4 4 100 8.8 15.5 56.5 46.4 10.1
Jamal Murray DEN 28 G 14 14 100 8.7 17.9 48.6 48.2 0.4
Rui Hachimura LAL 27 F 5 5 100 8.4 19.2 43.8 47.7 -4.0
Christian Braun DEN 24 G 14 14 100 8.0 18.9 42.4 47.7 -5.3
Karl-Anthony Towns NYK 29 C-F 18 18 100 7.8 16.7 46.7 48.9 -2.3
Scotty Pippen Jr. MEM 24 G 4 4 100 7.8 14.0 55.4 48.7 6.7
Jalen Brunson NYK 28 G 18 18 100 7.6 15.7 48.4 46.2 2.2

Out of that list of 12, Jokic only reduced the opposing players FG percentage compared to their average better than six bolded players:


Does it still make sense to you that DFGM is a sign of good defense? Considering who Jokic shares this list with?

Further, among centers, Jokic's -1.9 DIFF%, was 10th to last out of playoff C's who defended at least 5 shot attempts. Again, KAT is one spot ahead of him with -2.3.


If you can find a way to layer this data in knock yourself out. I currently cannot. But it should be noted that the Jokic doesn't foul narrative doesn't apply to the playoffs, where he actually defends a little better. He was 15th in fouls committed.



So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential. You have to do some elementry school level math. Just like yes, if you want to make your argument about Jokic's poor shot altering ability (something nobody has once disagreed with you on), you have to layer in turnovers. And again, yes you have to do the math yourself.

This is why I keep asking you to quantify your argument.

Here try an easy one. Using Jokic's shot blocking or lack there of. How many shots on Jokic vs the average starting center does it take to offset a single turnover?


I have. It just isn't sufficient for you and that's fine with me. I have a life..so I'm not going to score the internet to find data to substantiate an argument with you that I'm satisfied with.

So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential.


As I said before, DIFF% is the best metric I have. Per NBA stats Glossary:

The difference between the normal percentage of a shooter on shots throughout the season and the percentage on shots when the defensive player or team is guarding the shooter. A good defensive number will be negative because the defensive player holds their opponent to a lower percentage than normal


So you can compare Jokic's DIFF% in the RS (which is awful) and in the Playoffs (which is better but still below average relative to other C's. Jokic also had zero kick balls in the playoffs according to the data. Not sure how to layer in two steals a game but I don't think forcing two turnovers compensates for giving up the second most points per game

Also the DFGA and DFGM isn't a refelction of how good a player is at "altering" a shot per say. It reflects how often the player in question is the closest play to the player who attempted the FGA


If you ever both to take 5 minutes and use a calculator. You'll see the the numbers your talking about aren't as material as you think they are. Meanwhile your downplaying the turnovers, deflects and so on are more impactful than you're realizing. I've already done some light work on this in the last thread which you ignored.

Given you aren't willing to actually take the numbers I've done. I'm asking you to take a whole 10 minutes and do some really simple math. Once you do it, you'll understand why Jokic isn't a bad defender. But it's clear if you don't do it yourself you're not going to "get it".
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Re: How are people not putting Jokic in their top 15 yet? 

Post#140 » by Ruma85 » Tue Sep 23, 2025 10:34 pm

dhsilv2 wrote:
DimesandKnicks wrote:
dhsilv2 wrote:

So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential. You have to do some elementry school level math. Just like yes, if you want to make your argument about Jokic's poor shot altering ability (something nobody has once disagreed with you on), you have to layer in turnovers. And again, yes you have to do the math yourself.

This is why I keep asking you to quantify your argument.

Here try an easy one. Using Jokic's shot blocking or lack there of. How many shots on Jokic vs the average starting center does it take to offset a single turnover?


I have. It just isn't sufficient for you and that's fine with me. I have a life..so I'm not going to score the internet to find data to substantiate an argument with you that I'm satisfied with.

So once again, compare the numbers between Jokic and an average defender. And show us the impact to point differential.


As I said before, DIFF% is the best metric I have. Per NBA stats Glossary:

The difference between the normal percentage of a shooter on shots throughout the season and the percentage on shots when the defensive player or team is guarding the shooter. A good defensive number will be negative because the defensive player holds their opponent to a lower percentage than normal


So you can compare Jokic's DIFF% in the RS (which is awful) and in the Playoffs (which is better but still below average relative to other C's. Jokic also had zero kick balls in the playoffs according to the data. Not sure how to layer in two steals a game but I don't think forcing two turnovers compensates for giving up the second most points per game

Also the DFGA and DFGM isn't a refelction of how good a player is at "altering" a shot per say. It reflects how often the player in question is the closest play to the player who attempted the FGA


If you ever both to take 5 minutes and use a calculator. You'll see the the numbers your talking about aren't as material as you think they are. Meanwhile your downplaying the turnovers, deflects and so on are more impactful than you're realizing. I've already done some light work on this in the last thread which you ignored.

Given you aren't willing to actually take the numbers I've done. I'm asking you to take a whole 10 minutes and do some really simple math. Once you do it, you'll understand why Jokic isn't a bad defender. But it's clear if you don't do it yourself you're not going to "get it".


Quite clear people don't watch enough.
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