Was the Bucks-Sixers 2001 ECF series also rigged?

[Walt Cronkite]

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You are a former Charlotte Hornets fan? Still bitter about the semi-finals huh?

I stopped following Charlotte after the Bobby Phils/David Wesley thing.

BobbyLight-If you want to go back and find youtube clips of other Flagrant 1s and 2s from 2001 I'll chime in on if the call should've been upgraded. It was not a play on the ball, it was a cheap shot. It would be suspension worth today, but isn't 01 before the removal of hand-checking?

[BobbyLight]

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I stopped following Charlotte after the Bobby Phils/David Wesley thing.

BobbyLight-If you want to go back and find youtube clips of other Flagrant 1s and 2s from 2001 I'll chime in on if the call should've been upgraded. It was not a play on the ball, it was a cheap shot. It would be suspension worth today, but isn't 01 before the removal of hand-checking?

That Bobby Phills thing was tragic. Wish that never happened...

The current hand checking rules began in 05/06 after people complained about how Detroit was defending the Lakers in the 04 finals. IIRC.

[nyhuskyfan]

I was rooting for them, but I think the Bucks were a bit too whiny in that series. In the pivotal Game 5 - Robinson and Cassell totally lost their cool and picked up technicals/flagrants. They completely unraveled, and Ray Allen bails them out with some big-time plays to right the ship early in the fourth, then they don't get him the ball down the stretch. The Sixers ended up winning by one.

The one call I do remember in Game 7 was when Snow tried to draw a charge on Allen and sticks his leg waaaaaay out and totally undercut him, injuring Allen's knee in the process. Somehow Allen got called for a charge, in a call that was absolutely a joke, but the injury pretty much was the final nail for the Bucks moreso than the call. He came back and tried to limp around in the fourth quarter, making a shot or two, but Iverson had taken over at that point and the lead swelled from 7 to 14 by the time he came back and it was all over.

[Walt Cronkite]

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That Bobby Phills thing was tragic. Wish that never happened...

The current hand checking rules began in 05/06 after people complained about how Detroit was defending the Lakers in the 04 finals. IIRC.

youtube was no help for finding flagrant fouls during the same time period, most of them are recent. Rulebook definition sheds some light though:
EXCEPTION: Rule 12A--Section V--l(5)
l. A player, coach or trainer must be ejected for:
(1) A punching foul
(2) A fighting foul
(3) An elbow foul which makes contact above shoulder level
(4) An attempted punch which does not make contact

I'd say that's pretty definitive.

[europa]

If Kobe punches someone in the throat he should be ejected from the next game.

And yet when he elbowed Bibby in the face during the infamous Kings-Lakers 2002 series, Bibby got called for the foul. Go figure.

[Walt Cronkite]

The difference being that at least that series was alluded to in Donaghy's public letter.

Wouldn't he allude to the series in this thread if he had any suspicions of foul play? He's doing whatever he can to save his hide... why wouldn't he take that, err, gamble?

[bullzman23]

The difference being that at least that series was alluded to in Donaghy's public letter.

Wouldn't he allude to the series in this thread if he had any suspicions of foul play? He's doing whatever he can to save his hide... why wouldn't he take that, err, gamble?

That's assuming he's lying. If he's telling the truth, then he'd only mention specific games that he was privy to.

[BobbyLight]

The difference being that at least that series was alluded to in Donaghy's public letter.

Wouldn't he allude to the series in this thread if he had any suspicions of foul play? He's doing whatever he can to save his hide... why wouldn't he take that, err, gamble?

Do you expect him to give up everything in one sitting? He has to save some stuff for his book and made for TV movie.

[europa]

Wouldn't he allude to the series in this thread if he had any suspicions of foul play? He's doing whatever he can to save his hide... why wouldn't he take that, err, gamble?

The FBI has already concluded that at least some of what Donaghy has alleged is true. The fact they're asking a lot of very pointed questions about Dick Bavetta strongly indicates they have some dirt on him as well.

[nudson]

I think in 2001, a flagrant 2 was defined as a deliberate attempt to injure and not making a play on the ball. Not 100% sure though.

Also, not that it matters, if you want to be picky, Williams' elbow & forearm was below the shoulder. It looked like he caught the elbow at about the "V" in his jersey, and that seemed to bear out when that was the area that he was holding after the play.

[europa]

The best argument against a fix in that series in my opinion was how neither the refs nor David Stern caused Glenn Robinson to choke on a wide-open baseline jumper in Game 5 that would've won the game for the Bucks and given them a 3-2 series lead.

That said, there were a large number of things that at the very least looked suspicious about that series. Maybe it was just a large number of coincidences. That's certainly possible.

[BrewCityBBQ]

The people who say this series wasn't fixed are the same people who voted for Bush for a second term.

[Walt Cronkite]

I think in 2001, a flagrant 2 was defined as a deliberate attempt to injure and not making a play on the ball. Not 100% sure though.

Also, not that it matters, if you want to be picky, Williams' elbow & forearm was below the shoulder. It looked like he caught the elbow at about the "V" in his jersey, and that seemed to bear out when that was the area that he was holding after the play.

Seeing as how in the overhead view you can see his elbow connecting with Iverson's chin, I'm inclined to type that you're wrong, but sure...

Enjoy the conspiracy theory boys, I don't want to be Scully anymore.

[BrewCityBBQ]

And I gotta say if Scott Williams did intentionally commit that foul, he definitely held back. I know from my point of view I would have stepped in and roundhouse kicked Iverson in the face. He was the biggest bitch I have ever seen in a playoff series, complaining about every little call and getting so much mercy from the refs.

On a serious note, Milwaukee has been talking about this series ever since. I get in conversations with my friends occasionally talking about what could have been for my Bucks.

[barkley34]

The people who say this series wasn't fixed are the same people who voted for Bush for a second term.

Yeah, the refs are the reason Iverson lit up the Bucks for like 44 points in game 7. Without the league fixing that game the Bucks would have shut Iverson down. Bucks fans are really coming across as sore losers in this thread.

We had Eric Snow playing with 2 screws in his broken ankle that he refractured the series before against the Raptors so he had to come off the bench after starting all season for us. We had our starting small forward(Lynch) miss the entire series and we had Iverson injure his hip miss a game and play ineffectively in game 5 because of it.

The Sixers won because they had a superior coach Larry Brown>>>>Karl. They had a much better defense and they had an unstoppable scorer in Iverson.


I guess the refs fixed game 1 in the finals that is the only reason Iverson scored 48 points that game. Or the two 50 point games he had the previous series against the Raptors. It wasn't Iverson's dominance that postseason it was all the fix !!

On the Williams foul if you listen to Bill Walton on the broadcast he said there is no place for that type of foul in the league. So I guess Bill Walton was clueless.

[ACGB]

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On the Williams foul if you listen to Bill Walton on the broadcast he said there is no place for that type of foul in the league. So I guess Bill Walton was clueless.

You are using Bill Walton as your main argument for that?

[nudson]

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Seeing as how in the overhead view you can see his elbow connecting with Iverson's chin, I'm inclined to type that you're wrong, but sure...

I was basing the below the shoulder comment based on freezing at 43 seconds of the "Allen Iverson 46 pts 2001 Playoff Game vs Bucks Game 6" video.

To me it looked like Iverson added a little bit of theatrics throwing himself backwards, much like he sort of "over-sold" the couple elbows he got in the series.

[th87]

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But you're unwilling to see the other side. Philly quacked their way to the free throw stripe all season. Argue that the league was pushing Iverson as a brand and wanted him to succeed so the refs were lenient with and 1s and his drives for the entire season. Suggest that the NBA/Stern/Refs wanted Iverson to be the MVP for television ratings or ticket sales and this was the reason for preferential treatment (until they got to the Finals I guess, where they wanted bigger market LA with bigger stars in Shaq and Kobe to be the triumphant brand).

Okay, I will. Whatever. So the Bucks were simply a victim of a bigger directive, that being their desire to make Iverson a brand. Does that really change the notion that the Bucks were robbed?

Just watch the series again. Philly was getting away with lots of hacking, and the Bucks were getting called for touch fouls. Simple due diligence would make this evident. Yet you don't want to do that, and still argue as though you remember what happened. You can't have it both ways.

If you're not going to review the evidence, then you don't have the right to be taken seriously.

[LiQz]

The NBA isn't RIGGED, if it is, why did the Spurs win so many Championships in the past decade?

[LiQz]

The NBA isn't RIGGED, if it is, why did the Spurs win so many Championships in the past decade? Whey did the league allow the ugly basketball that was played between the Pistons and Spurs in the 05 Finals.

These accusations are just ridiculous!