Nash: Players Shouldn't Be Judged On Titles

[raptorforlife88]

But also Phoenix defense is bad do to Nash.
He helps you score, but he is going to help you give it all back.
That is why complete players usually win multiple MVP's.

There defense was usually in the middle of the pack 13-17th in the seasons with Nash. That was with Amare as well. So, clearly Nash did not destroy Phoenix's defense to the point where they could not succeed. On the other hand without him, their offense would become below average and they would be a bad team.

[pillwenney]

And seriously, just to further combat the notion that he was just some good scorer that was lucky enough to have good players around him, check out some of the plays he makes for others in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHJx908Oz2Y

And ask yourself if any of the guys you listed as guys that would "be just as good" in his role. He can do things that few other players in history have been able to do--things that were needed of the system he was in. That is why he was so valuable.

[raptorforlife88]

Hell just watch this one single game. Like they say, he may not be scoring but he is utterly dominating because he creates so many easy baskets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPGEMOo_ ... re=related

[CoolD]

Nash is good, but if we go by flashy plays, Jason Williams in his prime beats Nash. YouTube is not the best way to argue, every player has flashy plays. Duncan wouldn't be good if youtbue was the way to argue.

I've watched Nash many times. I always came away that hyper style of play, was the main reason, everyone looked better in Phoenix including Nash, they all great talent, but the style of play play a huge part of it.
But when a team like San Antonio or Detroit got them to play half court, they all didn't look as effective.
And the fact they couldn't defend, totally exposed them as frauds. Especially the leader of the team Nash.

[raptorforlife88]

Nash is good, but if we go by flashy plays, Jason Williams in his prime beats Nash. YouTube is not the best way to argue, every player has flashy plays. Duncan wouldn't be good if youtbue was the way to argue.

This is completely ironic. We just spent the last two pages showing you through stats and proof that Nash is an elite player. You somehow managed to argue that replacing him with other decent PG's would be fine because Nash isn't that great of a creator.

We now show you in both video and stats form that he is. None of this fazes you because actual arguments with points are worthless. So is interacting with arguments in any way shape or form. I would repost the stats from the last page again, but would mean going around in the circle again.

[raptorforlife88]

Thanks for taking over raptorforlife. It was getting pretty tiring explaining the same things over and over.

No kidding.

[pillwenney]

Nash is good, but if we go by flashy plays, Jason Williams in his prime beats Nash. YouTube is not the best way to argue, every player has flashy plays. Duncan wouldn't be good if youtbue was the way to argue.

I've watched Nash many times. I always came away that hyper style of play, was the main reason, everyone looked better in Phoenix including Nash, they all great talent, but the style of play play a huge part of it.
But when a team like San Antonio or Detroit got them to play half court, they all didn't look as effective.
And the fact they couldn't defend, totally exposed them as frauds. Especially the leader of the team Nash.

The flashy plays were merely an aside to the rest of my argument. Notice how I didn't bring those clips up until after several pages of thorough analysis arguments (most of which you didn't really respond to).

The point is to show that he is capable of making plays for others in a way that very few other players are. A lot of those aren't flashy for the sake of being flashy, they're the right play to make that other players either don't see, or can't execute. I mean just look at the game that was posted. That isn't just flashy stuff, that is sheer dominance with playmaking ability that arguably hasn't been seen since Magic. Just look at how easy he makes things for everybody else.

And true, Phoenix did have flaws that especially showed up in the playoffs. Absolutely. That doesn't mean they weren't still elite in terms of effectiveness in the regular season.

[CoolD]

Smush Parker has some sick plays. I was about to post his mix, but I just don't feel like posting mixes of a scrub to make a point.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFdc_Qqd_VM

Here is a Tony Parker mix if it makes you happy.

[raptorforlife88]

Smush Parker has some sick plays. I was about to post his mix, but I just don't feel like posting mixes of a scrub to make a point.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFdc_Qqd_VM

Here is a Tony Parker mix if it makes you happy.

Oh holy ****. Either interact with the actual argument or seriously don't bother posting.

Nash is good, but if we go by flashy plays, Jason Williams in his prime beats Nash. YouTube is not the best way to argue, every player has flashy plays. Duncan wouldn't be good if youtbue was the way to argue.

This is completely ironic. We just spent the last two pages showing you through stats and proof that Nash is an elite player. You somehow managed to argue that replacing him with other decent PG's would be fine because Nash isn't that great of a creator.

We now show you in both video and stats form that he is. None of this fazes you because actual arguments with points are worthless. So is interacting with arguments in any way shape or form. I would repost the stats from the last page again, but would mean going around in the circle again.

[pillwenney]

Not to mention that I just watched that video--Parker has about 3 passes in the whole video--2 of which are actually examples of strong playmaking as it would normally apply to an offense. By contrast, the Nash videos showed him mostly within the flow of the Suns offense, making plays for others that other PGs just don't make with any kind of regularity.

[pross]

I don't know why you guys bother.

Hey. No insults.

[raptorforlife88]

I don't know why you guys bother.

You always hope. Though you're probably right.

[bballmaniac27]

I stopped taking this CoolD guy seriously the moment he said Nash only won MVPs because he was white. It's pretty clear what his agenda is.

[CoolD]

Here is my final case.
D'Antoni style, because the pace is so much faster than any other teams, tends to inflate stats.
Nash played with extremely talented players, Dirk, Finley, Amare, Joe Johnson, Marion, and many good role players, but hasn't even played in one finals game in his whole career.
Show my an example of another two time MVP that hasn't played in a finals.
None, Nash is the only exception ever.
Show me another MVP that was behind in efficiency of two of his teammates. In his case Marion and Amare.
Show me an example of 2 time MVP leaving his team, and his team goes to the finals and gets better.
Show me an example of a 2 time MVP that was so horrible on defense.
All I can say, you are brainwashed sheep, that don't look at the game, through prism of history, but through fanboy eyes.

[pillwenney]

Here is my final case.
D'Antoni style, because the pace is so much faster than any other teams, tends to inflate stats.
Nash played with extremely talented players, Dirk, Finley, Amare, Joe Johnson, Marion, and many good role players, but hasn't even played in one finals game in his whole career.
Show my an example of another two time MVP that hasn't played in a finals.
None, Nash is the only exception ever.
Show me another MVP that was behind in efficiency of two of his teammates. In his case Marion and Amare.
Show me an example of 2 time MVP leaving his team, and his team goes to the finals and gets better.
Show me an example of a 2 time MVP that was so horrible on defense.
All I can say, you are brainwashed sheep, that don't look at the game, through prism of history, not through fanboy eyes.

You've said all of this before, and I've responded to all of this before. The Dallas stuff is all irrelevant--very, very irrelevant. The MVP award is not about being an all time great player. It's about being the most valuable player to their team in a given season--more valuable than any other player is to their team.

The playoffs are also irrelevant. The MVP is a regular season award. Not once in this thread have I said that Nash is a top 15 all time player because he has won two MVPs. I am saying that at least one of his MVPs was very legitimate.

Again, you seem to be completely confused as to what the MVP award actually is. You have all of these made up criteria that you use to discredit Nash. That's not an argument. History--in the way in which you are using it--is completely irrelevant to the years in which Nash won the MVP. The only years that matter are the MVP years--that is what we're debating about.

And I'll repeat--I don't give two s**ts about Nash. I really don't. I'll repeat--look into my post history at how often I have talked about him--it's rare that I ever do. I have gotten into this argument with you because I think you're wrong and completely lack any objectivity on the matter, and I think you have a very flawed perception of the MVP award.

And then you have the nerve to call me a brainwashed sheep when you don't respond to most of my arguments and repeat the same irrelevant points over and over.

[raptorforlife88]

Here is my final case.
Show me another MVP that was behind in efficiency of two of his teammates. In his case Marion and Amare.

Why the hell do you keep posting this. IT'S WRONG!!! For the first three years and each of his MVP years he was more offensively efficient than either of Marion or Stoudemire. This is why your argument can't be taken seriously. You post things that are disprovable within moments.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2005.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2006.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2007.html

[CoolD]

Overall efficiency .
The game is not just played in one side of the court.
This is not football were you don't have to play both sides.
I use to scroll through overall efficiency, not cherry picked stats , Nash was always behind Marion in overall efficiency, and Amare too.

[raptorforlife88]

Overall efficiency .
The game is not just played in one side of the court.
This is not football were you don't have to play both sides.
I use to scroll through overall efficiency, not cherry picked stats , Nash was always behind Marion in overall efficiency, and Amare too.

And what stat would you be using DRTG. Because that stat makes Amare look like a fine defender. And he's not. He's terrible, just as bad as Nash defensively. There are no real stats defensively that are effective means of judging defense. Team DRTG is fine, but players DRTG doesn't tell you much.

[pillwenney]

To me, the whole argument of efficiency is moot anyway since Nash is clearly a huge part of Amare and Marion's efficiency.

But anyway, I refuse to continue the rest of this argument until CoolD shows that he has a correct understanding of what an MVP is.

[CoolD]

MVP is the most valuable player in the league.

There is a reason why there is Coach of the Year.
That is my gripe, some good teams, like Detroit, Phoenix, are good collective units, but they necessarily don't have a MVP of the league on their team, they are just good collective units, but they don't have MVP's.

Marion's efficiency came a lot of his defense, his rebounding, steals, every stat combined.
I don't think Nash is helphing him do that. Is also the pace that helped all this guys, that it goes back to D'Antoni. Thus getting coach of the year.

I would give Nash Mrs Congeniality award,(if it existed) if it makes you happy, or most improved. MVP is just really the cream of the crop. Guys that are just great.

Look, reality is, you not going to change my mind. I saw Nash play, never bought the hype when he was getting his awards.

But through history, he seems to be the exception. That is why he probably brought the fact he hasn't won a title, he knows every two time MVP has played in a finals besides him and won too a title to add . Most be really eating at him.