US of A vs. Spain gamethread

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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1201 » by panthermark » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:41 pm

Wharton Alum 08 wrote:
If you have an All-Star level PF, and you are and All-Star PG....8 dimes per game isn't all that exceptional....especially if he is playing almost 37 mpg.

Also, 8 dimes would have tied him for 7th/8th and 9th among Westbrook and Davis...with Rose coming in 9th because he played more minutes per game than those two.


I don't get it, he's a an all star point already so he needs over 8 assist to solidify that? Parker, Billups have never touched 8 assist and non one questions them like they do Rose. Parker's played with a top 15 player all time his whole career.[/quote]

When it comes to Rose, I don't ever compare him to Francis or Marbury. I call him the love child of Wade and Parker......with a touch of Billups if he can get his three-ball down. Rose IMO is a bigger, stonger, more athletic Tony Parker.

When it comes to pure PG skill, Tony Parker isn't all that great.

Billups is a better floor general, and big-time shot maker, but still not a great play-maker.

And when people think of great PG play, neither Parker nor Billups comes to mind.

Listen, I am a BULLS fan...but...I can admit D-Rose has very average PG skills. Hopefully they will get better...but I don't just see him having the anticipation and vision of a great PG right now. With better teammates, his assist numbers will go up....but the better teammates do not make his skill any greater. I'm just hoping that the easier looks and dimes will allow him to "progress" into a better PG.

But regardless, he will be an All-Star because he is an exceptional scorer.
If he gets his three ball down, and becomes an above average passer...he will be a "superstar" IMO.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1202 » by Wharton Alum 08 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 8:54 pm

panthermark wrote:
Wharton Alum 08 wrote:
If you have an All-Star level PF, and you are and All-Star PG....8 dimes per game isn't all that exceptional....especially if he is playing almost 37 mpg.

Also, 8 dimes would have tied him for 7th/8th and 9th among Westbrook and Davis...with Rose coming in 9th because he played more minutes per game than those two.


I don't get it, he's a an all star point already so he needs over 8 assist to solidify that? Parker, Billups have never touched 8 assist and non one questions them like they do Rose. Parker's played with a top 15 player all time his whole career.


When it comes to Rose, I don't ever compare him to Francis or Marbury. I call him the love child of Wade and Parker......with a touch of Billups if he can get his three-ball down. Rose IMO is a bigger, stonger, more athletic Tony Parker.

When it comes to pure PG skill, Tony Parker isn't all that great.

Billups is a better floor general, and big-time shot maker, but still not a great play-maker.

And when people think of great PG play, neither Parker nor Billups comes to mind.

Listen, I am a BULLS fan...but...I can admit D-Rose has very average PG skills. Hopefully they will get better...but I don't just see him having the anticipation and vision of a great PG right now. With better teammates, his assist numbers will go up....but the better teammates do not make his skill any greater. I'm just hoping that the easier looks and dimes will allow him to "progress" into a better PG.

But regardless, he will be an All-Star because he is an exceptional scorer.
If he gets his three ball down, and becomes an above average passer...he will be a "superstar" IMO.[/quote]

Billups and Parker are both fringe HOF's right now. And that's without your "PG skills" what I look for in a PG is a guy that can control a team when things get hectic can settle it down and make something good happen. I just feel on this board assist are just weighted so heavily and that's not the end all be all in being a PG.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1203 » by Sedale Threatt » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:00 pm

If Artis Gilmore and Dennis Rodman can't get in, neither of those two have a hope in hell.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1204 » by panthermark » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:38 pm

Wharton Alum 08 wrote:
Billups and Parker are both fringe HOF's right now. And that's without your "PG skills" what I look for in a PG is a guy that can control a team when things get hectic can settle it down and make something good happen. I just feel on this board assist are just weighted so heavily and that's not the end all be all in being a PG.



Parker is no where near the HOF....
Put Parker on a team without the greatest PF in NBA history and he is just another shoot-first PG that was really, really fast....

Billups is a little closer... (still not a HOF'er).....but then again....he has also been named to the to the NBA all defensive team (2nd team) twice and is known for more his CLUTCH SHOOTING (along with his post play) than his play-making. (BTW, he did average 8.6 dimers per game one year).

You have basically moved a large portion of being a PG (the abiltiy to create easier shots for others) from your definition of PG to suit your argument.

I love D-Rose, but if you take away his fantastic scoring....his point guard skills are very average. Right now, he is about as much of a "play-maker" as Hinrich was (only without pounding the air out of the ball). He can manage an offense, but he isn't a great play-maker.

It almost seems as if his ability to create for others is based on his ability to be such a scoring threat as opposed to his (lack of) ability to probe a defense with the intention of creating a scoring opportunity. He certainly has the ability to get into the middle of a defense at will. Maybe with a bit more talent on the roster, when he does keep his dribble, it will end up with a pass for dunk instead of a spinning "shot-put" shot. That is what I'm hoping for.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1205 » by Wharton Alum 08 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:01 pm

panthermark wrote:
Wharton Alum 08 wrote:
Billups and Parker are both fringe HOF's right now. And that's without your "PG skills" what I look for in a PG is a guy that can control a team when things get hectic can settle it down and make something good happen. I just feel on this board assist are just weighted so heavily and that's not the end all be all in being a PG.



Parker is no where near the HOF....
Put Parker on a team without the greatest PF in NBA history and he is just another shoot-first PG that was really, really fast....

Billups is a little closer... (still not a HOF'er).....but then again....he has also been named to the to the NBA all defensive team (2nd team) twice and is known for more his CLUTCH SHOOTING (along with his post play) than his play-making. (BTW, he did average 8.6 dimers per game one year).

You have basically moved a large portion of being a PG (the abiltiy to create easier shots for others) from your definition of PG to suit your argument.

I love D-Rose, but if you take away his fantastic scoring....his point guard skills are very average. Right now, he is about as much of a "play-maker" as Hinrich was (only without pounding the air out of the ball). He can manage an offense, but he isn't a great play-maker.

It almost seems as if his ability to create for others is based on his ability to be such a scoring threat as opposed to his (lack of) ability to probe a defense with the intention of creating a scoring opportunity. He certainly has the ability to get into the middle of a defense at will. Maybe with a bit more talent on the roster, when he does keep his dribble, it will end up with a pass for dunk instead of a spinning "shot-put" shot. That is what I'm hoping for.


My question is why are people so worried about Rose's ability to run a team seeing is that he has had his team at a .500 mark the first two years of his career and made the playoffs in both. Why does it matter if Rose is taking a floater and scoring as opposed to Taj Gibson taking the shot. Is it purely for the cosmetic numbers? Two points is two points regardless.

People seem to caught up in this that you have to have huge assist numbers to be considered a great PG. There's more to it than just numbers. If Rose develops defensively to top 3 on the ball at the I could care less if he ever gets to 8+ assist. How great of a playmaker would you consider GP and there was a guy that went to school in Illinois who's a top 5 PG ever who might have averaged 8+ assist once or twice in his NBA career.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1206 » by UGA Hayes » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:03 pm

I'm not a huge fan of Rose pure PG skills, BUT I do think he will do better once he is back with his team with more rigid and familiar play calling. It isn't just Rose's instincts either. When he isn't going North-South Rose becomes a shakier ballhandler, which can really interfere with probing an offense.

Lets face it Rondo is probably the only one of the US PG really equipped to be running a semiorganized team USA offense on the fly. Curry isn't quite a PG although, mentally I think could do it if his skills were slightly better, and Billups could do it a few years ago but his skills are too eroded. Don't even get me started on Westbrook who they don't even pretend to run an offense with.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1207 » by cmd1985 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:34 pm

UGA Hayes wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Rose pure PG skills, BUT I do think he will do better once he is back with his team with more rigid and familiar play calling. It isn't just Rose's instincts either. When he isn't going North-South Rose becomes a shakier ballhandler, which can really interfere with probing an offense.

Lets face it Rondo is probably the only one of the US PG really equipped to be running a semiorganized team USA offense on the fly. Curry isn't quite a PG although, mentally I think could do it if his skills were slightly better, and Billups could do it a few years ago but his skills are too eroded. Don't even get me started on Westbrook who they don't even pretend to run an offense with.


The funny thing is that with all of the talk of how great Rondo is a running an offense he hasn't run team USA too efficiently. He hasn't looked any better than any of the 1's on the USA squad.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1208 » by richboy » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:45 pm

First of all, you watched 80% of the NBA last year? That's well over a thousand games. About 6 a night, or 12 hours a day during the season. Pretty impressive. But watching other teams still doesn't tell you anything about Derrick Rose.

If you really can't tell the difference between Rose and Francis, I find it hard to believe you were a coach at any level. But I can understand how someone teaching HS kids would be something of a puritan on such things. But you must agree that the NBA is vastly different than HS. The talent level just far outstrips classical player roles or putting limited talent players into a set system where everyone is nearly interchangeable if they just do things the right way.

But let me get to your question, Francis.

Steve Francis was not a team player. Rose is. Steve Francis did not have a pass first desire, Rose does. Though last year, he had to overcome that desire, due to not having one other legitimate scoring threat on his team once Salmons was traded (who happened to play like garbage with the Bulls anyway).

Steve Francis had bad shot selection, that's why he shot 43% for his career. Rose has very good shot selection, despite having to carry a team on his back last year. That's why he shoots 48% already in his career, with both of his seasons besting any year Francis ever put up in that regard.

Steve Francis pounded the hell out of the ball looking to put people on highlights. By comparison Rose will waste too much time dribbling maybe 1 or 2 times in a whole game to try and penetrate past a defense. Like he did today, just one time, when Rubio ended up picking him. But I just laugh when people say Rose doesn't give up the ball, he is usually very deliberate with his drives, or else he passes it on (which is actually what most complain about him, giving it up too soon).

Francis, his whole game was overdribbling, often into bad shots, and this is why he was so hard to build an offense around.

But if you can imagine a Steve Francis - who was quite good in his prime despite his flaws - with a team first mentality, with a willingness and desire to pass and see his team succeed, and with a careful eye to his shot selection, and who is going to listen to his coach and try to implement whatever he is told, then suddenly you are imagining a perennial All-Star that is a great building block for a team. And that's why Bulls fans are so high on Rose.

He's like Francis only in athleticism, and perhaps in being an average passer (though I suspect Rose will surpass any season by Francis in assists this very year). But everything above the neck is totally different, and this is what puts Rose's future potential so high.


A comparison is just that. It doesn't mean Francis and Rose are clones. A pizza may have different toppings but it still a Pizza. Everything you said I already said between Rose and Francis. Thing is those are not going to be the things that are going to make him a better player than Francis. He has to do it with impact. Right now Rose has to climb even to get to the impact of Francis.

Here's where you go wrong. If Francis had the desire to pass and the desire to make the best play for his team, he could have been a fine PG to lead a team. He wouldn't average 9 or 10 assists, maybe 7.5 or 8 at best, where Rose's limits likely lie, but it was his bad shots and unwillingness to heed a coach that ruined him, not his innate lack of passing or PG ability.


Francis had no PG ability. 7.5 assist for a kid that can get anywhere he wants on the floor isn't that special. Francis trying to embrace being a PG would have taken him away from what he did best. Replaced with him trying to be what he does worse. Which goes back to my feelings on Rose. When Rose tries to play like a PG he does nothing special. It emphasizes the worst part of his game. I just don't get the reason why.

I just disagree that he's "trying to be a PG" when he does that. I think he is trying too hard to defer to his teammates playmaking and individual play. When Rose is aggressive, that is how he becomes a better PG, because that is how he creates plays for others. By attacking the defense. When Rose goes passive, he doesn't try to do anything to set his team up, he just kind of disengages from the game.

Thankfully, he did that a lot less as a 2nd year player than as a rookie. But I just don't see that as Rose thinking he is doing what a PG is supposed to do at all. But rather just being uncomfortable being the focus of the offense constantly (to a Wade level) when he was just a 2nd year player on a team of vets like Hinrich, Deng, and Salmons. I think Hinrich is a key name there too, as he was the perennial captain of the Bulls and Rose seemed afraid to step too much on his toes leadership wise. But now he's gone and its probably for the best.


I call it trying to be a PG because it seems like he knows a traditional PG is pass first. He seems to be trying to fit that mold. My issue is when he is in that pass first mode that is all he does. He just hands the ball off. This is an issue that dates back prior to him being drafted. Calipari use to have to tell Rose its time to try to take over. He would think he be running offense but in real the offense would be just be running itself. He would just disappear for big chunks of the game. He still does it. He doesn't do it as much.

Many Bulls fans were enraptured with this idea of Rose as Wade as well. I just don't see it happening. Rose is not big enough to move over to the SG for one thing, and he is not quite as big or strong as Wade to take that full game beating inside. Already Rose prefers to spend a lot of his time in the mid-range and this slows his FT drawing and high percentage scoring capacity down. Unless he really breaks out in drawing FT's he will never approach the scoring volume of a Wade. And he seems to lack the natural instincts for diving into people like an Iverson, or flat out whining for calls like a lot of stars.

This is why its better if he stays in a PG mode ready to pass, because in actually breaking down a defense, he can match Wade. It's just what happens at the end, to where its often better for him to bail out with a pass than try to constantly be in scoring attack mode like Wade gets into.


I don't know if they have to move him to SG. If it was me I would look for a big PG that can play SG. Either that or find a SG with solid PG skills.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1209 » by Blame Rasho » Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:21 pm

Sedale Threatt wrote:If Artis Gilmore and Dennis Rodman can't get in, neither of those two have a hope in hell.


Yeah... and that molester Calvin " I am Shawn Kemp's role model" Murphy is in...

The HOF is a joke and truth be told, they have a bias for ABA players, and people are just reluctant to vote in Rodman.

Anyways... I think Parker is in, best french player by far in my opinion, and Billups is kinda further away, but then again... it is the HOF, they don't know ****...
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1210 » by joeysicko » Tue Aug 24, 2010 12:12 am

cool007 wrote:[quote="joeysicko"


Are you serious??? So Rose makes a play for an open shooter and there is about 15 secs left and that shooter has to decide what he needs to do??? even though he is open???

Do you want your PG to run the clock down to like 2 seconds and then pass the open shooter so he doesn't have any time left but jack up a RUSHED buzzer beating shot every time down the court???

Really??? :lol:


The point is good offense especially in the bulls system was predicated on taking the best shot. If you watched games his passes aren't always given to a player when their feet are set and they are ready to shoot. You can say that's the players fault, but if rose passes it to them and they are not ready, it's rose who put them in that position.

PG's are supposed to create high percentage shots not just shots where a player's man roams. Because of nba rotations and certain players lack of aggression they would just take the ball and wait or look for an easier opportunity. With 15 seconds left players can think, is this the best shot we can get? a semi-contested 3? or can I find an easier one? Don't run the clock all the way down, but give a player the ball in their sweet spot not just uncovered.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1211 » by panthermark » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:18 am

Wharton Alum 08 wrote:My question is why are people so worried about Rose's ability to run a team seeing is that he has had his team at a .500 mark the first two years of his career and made the playoffs in both. Why does it matter if Rose is taking a floater and scoring as opposed to Taj Gibson taking the shot. Is it purely for the cosmetic numbers? Two points is two points regardless.

Because it is the PG's job to run the offense and help create looks for other players. Maybe he should not pass it all and simply try to score 30 a game. In that case, he WOULD be Steve Francis....


Wharton Alum 08 wrote:People seem to caught up in this that you have to have huge assist numbers to be considered a great PG.[/b] There's more to it than just numbers. If Rose develops defensively to top 3 on the ball at the I could care less if he ever gets to 8+ assist. How great of a playmaker would you consider GP and there was a guy that went to school in Illinois who's a top 5 PG ever who might have averaged 8+ assist once or twice in his NBA career.


No, but a higher assist number is "usually" an indicator of ones ability to be a great PG. And yes, if he develops into a top 3 defender...then he would be a HOF level player that plays the PG position....but that is a BIG AZZ "IF".

How much of Gary Payton to you remember? You do know that GP once LED THE LEAGUE in assists don't you?
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1212 » by NYForever » Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:33 pm

I'm not a Rose, Rondo, nor Westbrook homer... just a lover of the game! I played point guard in high school in the Detroit Public School system (Willie Green) was our two guard. Some of you seem to have this preconceived notion as to what u call a pg. D Rose plays the point different than Rondo, but he is just as effective at what he does. This doesn't make him any less of a pg! Putting players in a box is what damages a players capabilities and potential. We are seeing something special in Rose, regardless if some of you haters want to realize it or not. True, he isn't your PROTOTYPICAL by the book pg, but who says thats better than the type of pg he is! Rondo facilitates his offense very well and Rose facilitates the Bulls offense very well! Stats don't mean a damn thing! And whoever made the comment about Rose driving and kicking the ball out to an open man being a bad thing! Not sure who it was, but he added that a pg is supposed to make a "pass towards the rim" for an easier shot, doesn't know a damn thing about basketball! That sounds so damn stupid! Drive and kicking are a main component to being a good pg! This reasoning reminds me of the guy that is at the gym and thinks he is just the ultimate pg. He dribbles the hell out of the ball and demands everybody to "cut"! He never allows people to get a feel for the rock or do their own thing because he is constantly trying to setup the homerun pass for a layup! Most of the time his pass is picked off. I know most of yall who have played know exactly the type of player i'm talking about, lol!
Rose is a new breed of guard, along with Westbrook. They can do things that prototypical pgs cant do, that is why they are special players. The guy is blessed with extraordinary athletic ability and an unselfish, willing to learn attitude. True, he scores alot, so what! He is still a pg, a pg that keeps the defense on its heels and he is only getting better. Even though I like Rondo, he has his defeciencies as a prototypical pg also! He shoots 60% from the foul line and can't hit a consistent jumper to save his life! If you want to keep defining and pruning the pg position, he is a liability as a team facilitator in clutch time and teams that play a pack it in zone. My point is, people need to quit overly defining players, stat watching, and let a player utilize his effectiveness the best way he knows how! Phil Jackson has won 11 titles, most without the use of a prototypical pg, so who's to say that being a damn prototype is better for a team!

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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1213 » by UGA Hayes » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:08 pm

cmd1985 wrote:
UGA Hayes wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Rose pure PG skills, BUT I do think he will do better once he is back with his team with more rigid and familiar play calling. It isn't just Rose's instincts either. When he isn't going North-South Rose becomes a shakier ballhandler, which can really interfere with probing an offense.

Lets face it Rondo is probably the only one of the US PG really equipped to be running a semiorganized team USA offense on the fly. Curry isn't quite a PG although, mentally I think could do it if his skills were slightly better, and Billups could do it a few years ago but his skills are too eroded. Don't even get me started on Westbrook who they don't even pretend to run an offense with.


The funny thing is that with all of the talk of how great Rondo is a running an offense he hasn't run team USA too efficiently. He hasn't looked any better than any of the 1's on the USA squad.


I agree and disagree. Rondo has been a little too turnover prone for my taste as well as not aggressive enough with his scoring. I'm not sure whether that we did poorly at the beginning of the Lith game was him or someone else since they didn't show it. On the other hand he has really been the only one who has even tried to run an offense. He was doing a pretty good job of setting up guys, Durant in particular but has been hurt by Durant missing basically every shot that he has taken. Thats the downside to being a pass first PG. If you run the O and everybody misses their shots, the PG usually gets the blame. Don't get me wrong though I do think Rondo has been avg so far and if it weren't for team needs even think it would be justified to cut him on a straight comparison to how everyone else has played. Basically all the PGs have had good and bad games.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1214 » by cmd1985 » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:21 pm

UGA Hayes wrote:
cmd1985 wrote:
UGA Hayes wrote:I'm not a huge fan of Rose pure PG skills, BUT I do think he will do better once he is back with his team with more rigid and familiar play calling. It isn't just Rose's instincts either. When he isn't going North-South Rose becomes a shakier ballhandler, which can really interfere with probing an offense.

Lets face it Rondo is probably the only one of the US PG really equipped to be running a semiorganized team USA offense on the fly. Curry isn't quite a PG although, mentally I think could do it if his skills were slightly better, and Billups could do it a few years ago but his skills are too eroded. Don't even get me started on Westbrook who they don't even pretend to run an offense with.


The funny thing is that with all of the talk of how great Rondo is a running an offense he hasn't run team USA too efficiently. He hasn't looked any better than any of the 1's on the USA squad.


I agree and disagree. Rondo has been a little too turnover prone for my taste as well as not aggressive enough with his scoring. I'm not sure whether that we did poorly at the beginning of the Lith game was him or someone else since they didn't show it. On the other hand he has really been the only one who has even tried to run an offense. He was doing a pretty good job of setting up guys, Durant in particular but has been hurt by Durant missing basically every shot that he has taken. Thats the downside to being a pass first PG. If you run the O and everybody misses their shots, the PG usually gets the blame. Don't get me wrong though I do think Rondo has been avg so far and if it weren't for team needs even think it would be justified to cut him on a straight comparison to how everyone else has played. Basically all the PGs have had good and bad games.


What is this semblance of an offense Rondo was running when the team had 6 first quarter points against Lithuania. How can you tell he was running an offense, because he was pointing? It can can be argued not that I agree that Rose got Durant going not by passing but the attention he seems to command which Rondo really doesn't. As for his scoring he won't be able to be ultra aggressive in this setting, there's no 3 in the key, and teams can really zone it up making him ineffective.
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Re: US of A vs. Spain gamethread 

Post#1215 » by MrSparkle » Tue Aug 24, 2010 2:31 pm

cmd1985 wrote:Rondo guys are too funny. What is this semblance of an offense Rondo was running when the team had 6 first quarter points against Lithuania. It can be argued not that I agree that Rose got Durant going not by passing but the attention he seems to command which Rondo really doesn't. As for his scoring he won't be able to be ultra aggressive in this setting, there's no 3 in the key, and teams can really zone it up making him ineffective.


Ha. Indeed. I won't say Rose was perfect, and I'm not gonna say Rondo was bad... but it is quite funny that Rose helped us jump to a huge early advantage against the top competitor in the world, made clutch baskets, we won, and he's being criticized. Eh. He'll just have to kick some ass in the regular season.

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