RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[One Last Shot]

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

So how exactly does LeBron’s teams being beaten by dynastic teams make him better than the guys around whom those dynasties were built ?.

Because he beat those dynasties? My post isn't complete didn't know it got posted but I have a question to you that I already asked to some posters here. In your opinion, which squad was the greatest team MJ beat in his 6 NBA titles? Is it the Utah Jazz whose 2nd best player is Stockton who averaged 10.7 ppg, 8.7 apg in 98 Finals? Is it the 91 Lakers with injured Worthy/Scott and Magic who announced his retirement few months later due to HIV? Is it the 91 Pistons where Thomas got a career-threatening wrist injury that basically ended the reigns of Bad Boys Pistons? Is it the duo of Barkley/KJ or Kemp/Payton that only 2 of those 4 players made it to HOF? Is it Ewing Knicks that Jordan-less Bulls took to 7 games in 94 Semifinals and eventually lost to NBA Champs Rockets in 7 games? Is it Mark Price Cavaliers that 94 Bulls swept in the 1st round of playoffs without MJ? Is it young Shaq/Penny while Grant injured his elbow? Is it Drexler Blazers? Miller Pacers? Wilkins Hawks? Mourning when he's playing for Hornets or Heat? Which team do you think was the best that Jordan Bulls beat in a playoffs series? Are they even better than the Celtics superteam that send 4 players in the All-star from "historically weak" East?

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

91 Lakers had 3 HOF players, Magic was second in mvp voting
92 Blazers had 7 players average double figure points that year, deepest team in the league
93 Suns won 62 games and Barkley was league mvp
96 Sonics won 64 games that year
97 Jazz won 64 games and Malone was mvp
98 Jazz won 62 games

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

None of these teams were weak

[MavsDirk41]

Jordan would be swept in 2007 and 2018, assuming it was 22- or 23-year-old Jordan. Jordan was swept in the first round of the post-season of his Age 23 season.

Jordan would play better than LeBron in the 2011 Finals, similar in 2012 and 2013. The cavaliers lost in 2015-2018 and didn't win in 2016 since Jordan couldn't play the same role as LeBron (Defensive anchor and rim protector) against Golden State. The Lakers still won in 2020, though they lost some play-making going from Jordan to LeBron. Jordan was great, with limited point guards like Rondo was in 2020.

Ultimately these comparisons are silly. The Bulls were crafted over half a decade to optimize Jordan and his skill set. The Cavaliers (2015-2017) were optimized around LeBron James, as well as the 2020 Lakers. Even the Heatles took advantage of LeBron's unique skill-set to do so many things on the court at an elite level, which allowed them to back-fill their role players with extremely limited and aging role players.

It isn't fair for either player to do a player swap. Aside from both players playing different positions and having different skill sets, they played in different eras and with different supporting casts and teams.

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

I agree. It isn't fair to LeBron or Jordan.

Here is the most important thing about LeBron's Finals though.

Underdog:
2007: Spurs -450 - Big 3 Spurs in their primes vs a 22 y/o LeBron
2012 : OKC -175 - this one might be a surprise but Vegas loved OKC and who wouldn't? They swept the defending champs, 4-1'd the ex defending champs, and absolutely obliterated a very good Spurs team after starting 0-2 while the Heat almost got Celtics'd.
2014 : Spurs -155 - pretty close to even odds in this finals rematch
2015 : Warriors -220 - this was the line before Kyrie got hurt
2016 : Warriors -220 - 73 win team
2017: Warriors -300 - KD joined a 73 win team
2018: Warriors -1075(lol) - Kyrie nope'd out

Favorite years:
2011 : Heat -175 - first big 3 year and the most embarrassing playoff performance by LeBron ever
2013: Heat -220 - Heat absolutely destroyed the regular season winning 66 games, against most other finals teams they would have been larger favorites but as we all know those Spurs teams were something special
2020: Lakers -330

And here are Jordan's
Underdog:

Favorite years:
1991: Bulls -200
1992: Bulls -250
1993: Bulls -240
1996: Bulls -940
1997: Bulls -600
1998: Bulls -115

You think Vegas was gonna pick Jordan to lose in the finals?

[MavsDirk41]

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

So how exactly does LeBron’s teams being beaten by dynastic teams make him better than the guys around whom those dynasties were built ?.

Because he beat those dynasties? My post isn't complete didn't know it got posted but I have a question to you that I already asked to some posters here. In your opinion, which squad was the greatest team MJ beat in his 6 NBA titles? Is it the Utah Jazz whose 2nd best player is Stockton who averaged 10.7 ppg, 8.7 apg in 98 Finals? Is it the 91 Lakers with injured Worthy/Scott and Magic who announced his retirement few months later due to HIV? Is it the 91 Pistons where Thomas got a career-threatening wrist injury that basically ended the reigns of Bad Boys Pistons? Is it the duo of Barkley/KJ or Kemp/Payton that only 2 of those 4 players made it to HOF? Is it Ewing Knicks that Jordan-less Bulls took to 7 games in 94 Semifinals and eventually lost to NBA Champs Rockets in 7 games? Is it Mark Price Cavaliers that 94 Bulls swept in the 1st round of playoffs without MJ? Is it young Shaq/Penny while Grant injured his elbow? Is it Drexler Blazers? Miller Pacers? Wilkins Hawks? Mourning when he's playing for Hornets or Heat? Which team do you think was the best that Jordan Bulls beat in a playoffs series? Are they even better than the Celtics superteam that send 4 players in the All-star from "historically weak" East?

After reading this i can tell you didnt watch 90s nba

[Iwasawitness]

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

91 Lakers had 3 HOF players, Magic was second in mvp voting
92 Blazers had 7 players average double figure points that year, deepest team in the league
93 Suns won 62 games and Barkley was league mvp
96 Sonics won 64 games that year
97 Jazz won 64 games and Malone was mvp
98 Jazz won 62 games

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

None of these teams were weak

Utah was a dynasty? In what way?

[ReggiesKnicks]

I just think its funny when people act like every team he played against in the finals was a powerhouse and Jordans Bulls played against Geico cavemen.

I agree. It isn't fair to LeBron or Jordan.

Here is the most important thing about LeBron's Finals though.

Underdog:
2007: Spurs -450 - Big 3 Spurs in their primes vs a 22 y/o LeBron
2012 : OKC -175 - this one might be a surprise but Vegas loved OKC and who wouldn't? They swept the defending champs, 4-1'd the ex defending champs, and absolutely obliterated a very good Spurs team after starting 0-2 while the Heat almost got Celtics'd.
2014 : Spurs -155 - pretty close to even odds in this finals rematch
2015 : Warriors -220 - this was the line before Kyrie got hurt
2016 : Warriors -220 - 73 win team
2017: Warriors -300 - KD joined a 73 win team
2018: Warriors -1075(lol) - Kyrie nope'd out

Favorite years:
2011 : Heat -175 - first big 3 year and the most embarrassing playoff performance by LeBron ever
2013: Heat -220 - Heat absolutely destroyed the regular season winning 66 games, against most other finals teams they would have been larger favorites but as we all know those Spurs teams were something special
2020: Lakers -330

And here are Jordan's
Underdog:

Favorite years:
1991: Bulls -200
1992: Bulls -250
1993: Bulls -240
1996: Bulls -940
1997: Bulls -600
1998: Bulls -115

You think Vegas was gonna pick Jordan to lose in the finals?

At the end of the day, Jordan was 6-0 when the favorite (with 1998 being a 50/50).

LeBron was 2-1 as a favorite and 2-5 as an underdog.

[MavsDirk41]

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

91 Lakers had 3 HOF players, Magic was second in mvp voting
92 Blazers had 7 players average double figure points that year, deepest team in the league
93 Suns won 62 games and Barkley was league mvp
96 Sonics won 64 games that year
97 Jazz won 64 games and Malone was mvp
98 Jazz won 62 games

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

None of these teams were weak

Utah was a dynasty? In what way?

Between 89 to 01 they won 50 plus games every year but two years and 99 was a lock out year and the nba only had about 50 regular season games that season.

[Iwasawitness]

91 Lakers had 3 HOF players, Magic was second in mvp voting
92 Blazers had 7 players average double figure points that year, deepest team in the league
93 Suns won 62 games and Barkley was league mvp
96 Sonics won 64 games that year
97 Jazz won 64 games and Malone was mvp
98 Jazz won 62 games

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

None of these teams were weak

Utah was a dynasty? In what way?

Between 89 to 01 they won 50 plus games every year but two years and 99 was a lock out year and the nba only had about 50 regular season games that season.

Okay? And how does any of that make them a dynasty?

[MavsDirk41]

Utah was a dynasty? In what way?

Between 89 to 01 they won 50 plus games every year but two years and 99 was a lock out year and the nba only had about 50 regular season games that season.

Okay? And how does any of that make them a dynasty?

Lol Malone, Stockton, Jerry Sloan….come on man. Maybe you have heard of that trio. You dont think 90s nba without thinking about the Utah Jazz. They came up short against the Bulls but were great for over a decade with that trio.

[Iwasawitness]

Between 89 to 01 they won 50 plus games every year but two years and 99 was a lock out year and the nba only had about 50 regular season games that season.

Okay? And how does any of that make them a dynasty?

Lol Malone, Stockton, Jerry Sloan….come on man. Maybe you have heard of that trio. You dont think 90s nba without thinking about the Utah Jazz. They came up short against the Bulls but were great for over a decade with that trio.

You didn’t answer my question. How does that make them a dynasty? They consistently had a great team, but so did the Cleveland Indians in the 90s, and no Cleveland fan in their mind would ever call them a dynasty. You can’t be a dynasty if you never win any championships.

[AmIWrongDude]

91 Lakers had 3 HOF players, Magic was second in mvp voting
92 Blazers had 7 players average double figure points that year, deepest team in the league
93 Suns won 62 games and Barkley was league mvp
96 Sonics won 64 games that year
97 Jazz won 64 games and Malone was mvp
98 Jazz won 62 games

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

None of these teams were weak

Utah was a dynasty? In what way?

Between 89 to 01 they won 50 plus games every year but two years and 99 was a lock out year and the nba only had about 50 regular season games that season.

A dynasty when the team never even won a championship…. Thats a first

[MavsDirk41]

Okay? And how does any of that make them a dynasty?

Lol Malone, Stockton, Jerry Sloan….come on man. Maybe you have heard of that trio. You dont think 90s nba without thinking about the Utah Jazz. They came up short against the Bulls but were great for over a decade with that trio.

You didn’t answer my question. How does that make them a dynasty? They consistently had a great team, but so did the Cleveland Indians in the 90s, and no Cleveland fan in their mind would ever call them a dynasty. You can’t be a dynasty if you never win any championships.

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

[Iwasawitness]

Lol Malone, Stockton, Jerry Sloan….come on man. Maybe you have heard of that trio. You dont think 90s nba without thinking about the Utah Jazz. They came up short against the Bulls but were great for over a decade with that trio.

You didn’t answer my question. How does that make them a dynasty? They consistently had a great team, but so did the Cleveland Indians in the 90s, and no Cleveland fan in their mind would ever call them a dynasty. You can’t be a dynasty if you never win any championships.

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

[michaelm]

7 out of his 10 opponents in Finals was a dynasty. OKC got 3 future MVPs in their roster and swept the b2b champs Lakers and dismantled Spurs dynasty,

So how exactly does LeBron’s teams being beaten by dynastic teams make him better than the guys around whom those dynasties were built ?.

Because he beat those dynasties? My post isn't complete didn't know it got posted but I have a question to you that I already asked to some posters here. In your opinion, which squad was the greatest team MJ beat in his 6 NBA titles? Is it the Utah Jazz whose 2nd best player is Stockton who averaged 10.7 ppg, 8.7 apg in 98 Finals? Is it the 91 Lakers with injured Worthy/Scott and Magic who announced his retirement few months later due to HIV? Is it the 91 Pistons where Thomas got a career-threatening wrist injury that basically ended the reigns of Bad Boys Pistons? Is it the duo of Barkley/KJ or Kemp/Payton that only 2 of those 4 players made it to HOF? Is it Ewing Knicks that Jordan-less Bulls took to 7 games in 94 Semifinals and eventually lost to NBA Champs Rockets in 7 games? Is it Mark Price Cavaliers that 94 Bulls swept in the 1st round of playoffs without MJ? Is it young Shaq/Penny while Grant injured his elbow? Is it Drexler Blazers? Miller Pacers? Wilkins Hawks? Mourning when he's playing for Hornets or Heat? Which team do you think was the best that Jordan Bulls beat in a playoffs series? Are they even better than the Celtics superteam that send 4 players in the All-star from "historically weak" East?

They beat everyone who turned up to play them which is all any team can do, and how good those opponents would have looked if they didn’t have to play against the Jordan Bulls is the unknowable question. It is certainly fairly difficult to play dynasty teams while being on a team which is creating a dynasty.

It was perhaps not your point although this was not clear from your original post, but rather than complain about LeBron facing strong opposition I would credit the players the dynasty teams where based upon, and as opposed to players involved in those dynasties LeBron hasn’t really been the foundation stone of any dynasties himself.

[michaelm]

You didn’t answer my question. How does that make them a dynasty? They consistently had a great team, but so did the Cleveland Indians in the 90s, and no Cleveland fan in their mind would ever call them a dynasty. You can’t be a dynasty if you never win any championships.

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

So how were the Jordan Bulls to defeat a dynasty team while being a dynasty team themselves ?.

[ReggiesKnicks]

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

So how were the Jordan Bulls to defeat a dynasty team while being a dynasty team themselves ?.

Technically speaking, the Bulls did beat a few dynasties. The 1991 Lakers and 1991 Pistons, granted both were at the tail end of their runs and in the case of the Pistons, not nearly the same team they were prior.

[Iwasawitness]

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

So how were the Jordan Bulls to defeat a dynasty team while being a dynasty team themselves ?.

They didn’t, that’s the whole point.

[MavsDirk41]

You didn’t answer my question. How does that make them a dynasty? They consistently had a great team, but so did the Cleveland Indians in the 90s, and no Cleveland fan in their mind would ever call them a dynasty. You can’t be a dynasty if you never win any championships.

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

They made the WCF’s in 92, 94, 96, and the finals in 97 and 98. If they weren’t a dynasty they were as close to as one that you can get. And again, you have been wrong on here before in my eyes so we are back to your opinion and my opinion.

[michaelm]

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

So how were the Jordan Bulls to defeat a dynasty team while being a dynasty team themselves ?.

They didn’t, that’s the whole point.

I guess Jordan is on the same boat as Bill Russell then. How can Bill have been any good given he didn’t beat any dynastic teams either?.

[Iwasawitness]

Well i can copy and paste what i just wrote before lol. I dont agree with everything you post on here even after you explain it several times. People disagree on here everyday, why should this be any different?

Until you pinpoint at what time they won a championship, you will continue to be wrong here. A dynasty in sports requires teams to win multiple championships over a course of multiple seasons. The jazz didn’t do that.

They made the WCF’s in 92, 94, 96, and the finals in 97 and 98. If they weren’t a dynasty they were as close to as one that you can get. And again, you have been wrong on here before in my eyes so we are back to your opinion and my opinion.

This isn’t a matter of opinion. A sports dynasty is a team that dominates a sport for multiple years by winning at the highest level. The jazz didn’t do this. They didn’t even win a single championship. The cavaliers in second stint LeBron years were more of a dynasty… they at least won a championship.