Rookie Discussion Thread

[Heat_Fan_87]

great games by winslow and jrich

[Liqourish]

Stanley Johnson had a good stint in the first half. 6 Points and Four Rebounds on 2/2 shooting (both three-point shots), along with quality defense.

Outstanding game for him. His defense on Lebron was outstanding. He was very physical with him and never backed down. I think this playoff experience will do wonders for his growth next season. He really is a complete player and has a high ceiling.

[HawaiianJazzFan]

No - it doesnt make sense.

Booker is a tier above Lyles. Booker doesnt have the luxury of playing with the same kind of talent as Lyles and therefore commands more defensive pressure. Booker is a 19 year old guard while Lyles is a 20 year old bigman. Booker is more than a full year younger than Lyles in a league where the learning curve is far steeper for guards than it is for bigmen. On top of this Booker has played 2100 minutes to Lyles' 1300 minutes.

Taking all of these extremely important aspects into account, it is clear that Booker has easily had the superior year and is the better prospect. Booker has far more potential and you have to be nuts to consider picking Lyles over Booker

Haha, so your argument for Booker being better is that he was on a bad team, chucked, and played a bunch of minutes???

First, bigs take longer to develop than guards and that is pretty much known across the league. Also, Booker is LESS THAN a full year younger than Lyles (October comes before November) I don't know why you needed to lie there. Lyles is 5 inches taller, can handle the ball and can pass of the dribble as a 6'10 BIG MAN... and he still shot better than Booker from 3 (38% to 34%). For a big man to come into the league and demand time in a front court that is stacked is pretty impressive. Booker essentially got to come into the games and chuck with low efficiency on a bad team, that isn't difficult to do... just as Nick Young.


Oh and for some more facts look at the post above:

D. Booker: 19.5 3.0, 4.2, 0.7 stl, 50.3 TS%, 11.9 PER (35.3 mpg)
T. Lyles: 17.6, 7.2, 1.6, 1.0 stl, 54.7 TS%, 15.6 PER (17.5 mpg)

If anything Trey was in a tougher situation because he had to fight, Hayward, Gobert, Favors and Booker for time. When Lyles started he shot 44% from three. I'm not saying that Booker is a bad player, I'd love to have him. To say he is a better prospect however isn't really possible to say at this point. Lyles potential is a non-crazy better shooting version of Lamar Odom. Odom's are pretty rare finds, especially for a front court that is dying for someone to provide space like Trey.

So now 11 FGA per game is chucking? The fact of the matter is that he has contributed more to his team than Lyles to his.

I didnt say anything about developing players. I said learning curve. Bigs take longer to develop over the course of a career but in terms of first year as a pro, there is an immense learning curve for guards as the games are played in a very different way which is consequential to guards who are responsible for ball handling and initiating plays.

Regarding their birthdays - i got the months mixed up. regardless, lyles is practically a full year older than booker, which is huge in terms of prospect evaluation.

The fact that you bring up stats like TS% and PER in this discussion is comical. The facts of the matter are that Booker is a year younger , plays almost twice the minutes, has twice as many FGA's per game, and is forced to create his own shot more than Lyles. Those obviously have something to do with decreased PER and TX%. I hate to break it to you, but only stat nerds who make evaluations based on basketballreference.com and dont know anything about basketball would think those are relevant here.

All of the arguments you are using now could be used against rookie Giannis Antetokuompo, who came into the league at around the same age and into the same role and put up the same stats that you used. People who actually watched the game and took into account all of the factors ive mentioned knew he was a special player though.

Lyles is good but he is nowhere near the prospect that Booker is lol

You haven't explained HOW for ANYTHING. All I've heard is he has played more minutes and he shot more (if that's the criteria Speights must be the best in the NBA, dude shoots like 2 times a minute). Seriously, that's our criteria for what makes a better player?? Obviously let's disregard percentages because we don't care if players actually make their shots is what you are telling me. Pardon me for bringing a little objectivity to this discussion. Sure, those stats aren't as important (disregarding them completely is just as foolish) in a rookie year, I agree but what are we supposed to use?? BTW, the gap in FG's that are assisted is much lower than you think, Lyles did pretty well creating his own shot and that is when he excelled in the season. He performed poorer when he just stood in the corner.

So you agree that bigs take longer to develop over a career except in the first year?? What does that even mean? Like bigs start out well and then suck in years 2, 3 and 4?? In the last 10 years we have had 1 big man ROY (Blake, KAT will be two this year). The majority of our ROY's are guards (Lillard, Rose, Tyreke, MCW, Kyrie, Roy, CP3, and Wiggins) ... so how difficult is that learning curve for guards again?? Why have most of our best rookies been guards if there is that big of a learning curve for them???

Lyles was playing SF at Kentucky and had to guard SF's. How is that not a bigger learning curve, going from SF in college to guarding and playing the 4 and sometimes 5 position in THE NBA?? Almost every objective criteria is in favor of Lyles, somehow me quoting them means I don't watch games. Despite the fact that I grew up in Gilbert, AZ (have watched and do watch many Suns games) and haven't missed a Jazz game in 8 years.

How has Booker contributed more to the Suns?? The suns were horrible. Pardon me for trying to be objective, once again, but Lyles had more win shares, win shares per 48, Vorp pick anything. The reason why Zach Lowe picked Lyles in his all-rookie teams over WCS, and Josh Richardson was because Lyles was excelling while in the middle of a playoff race where every game was close. He singlehandedly beat the Bulls for us in the 4th quarter and he outplayed Booker in Utah when the Suns visited, though Booker shot it 14 times (only made 3) and played more minutes, maybe the suns should have won because that's our criteria for being a better player. I agree stats aren't the end all be all but I hate to break it to you, those who disregard ALL STATS (except FGA's and MPG of course) are usually talking out of their ass.

Giannis Antetokounmpo is an amazing prospect who performed terribly his first few years in advanced stats, I agree. The things that make Giannis an elite prospect are the things he shares with LYLES AND NOT BOOKER. Namely his length and ability to handle the ball at his size. Giannis is SEVEN FEET tall, can handle the ball and is ridiculously fast. He is hands down a better prospect than EITHER of these rookies. That is why you can overlook any and all of his numbers his first few years. He's ridiculously long. He is nicknamed the greek freak for a reason. Booker is never going to be an elite specimen, he's actually on the small size in height and length. You forgive less when a player is small or average. Let's look at these two prospects. Lyles is 6'10, can shoot the 3, has excellent lateral quickness defensively and can handle the ball, which is more rare as a physical specimen. Booker is 6'6 can handle the ball, is quick, and can shoot the 3, not very rare as a specimen as most players who are that size either need those skills or need to be absolutely ELITE defensively to make it.


Don't worry I know what your response is going to be:

"Stats are dumb, HJF probably doesn't watch basketball, because only nerds use advanced stats, duh. Booker shoots a lot and gets minutes on a terrible team, he be shooting buckets and sometimes he makes them, he takes them despite the HUGE learning curve that all guards have in the NBA. I mean he shot a ton in college and now he shoots a ton in the NBA it takes a long time to make that adjustment. Lyles isn't in the same league as Booker (once again, backing this up with a plethora of objective reasons). Booker is WAY better than Lyles, lol. Kristaps Porzingis, Antetokounmpo, Gobert, Durant, look at all these elite PHYSICAL prospects that also had bad advanced stats, that's my argument for Booker being better. Lyles is nowhere near the prospect.

[HawaiianJazzFan]

Lastly, I'm not saying that Lyles will be better in the future ONCE AGAIN!!! I am just saying that to say one prospect is in a different class than the other is ridiculous, ESPECIALLY when none of the objective stats (advanced stats) agree with you. It is even more true when one prospect is bigger and longer than the average size at his position, and the other is almost below average in size at his position.

[HawaiianJazzFan]

Haha, so your argument for Booker being better is that he was on a bad team, chucked, and played a bunch of minutes???

First, bigs take longer to develop than guards and that is pretty much known across the league. Also, Booker is LESS THAN a full year younger than Lyles (October comes before November) I don't know why you needed to lie there. Lyles is 5 inches taller, can handle the ball and can pass of the dribble as a 6'10 BIG MAN... and he still shot better than Booker from 3 (38% to 34%). For a big man to come into the league and demand time in a front court that is stacked is pretty impressive. Booker essentially got to come into the games and chuck with low efficiency on a bad team, that isn't difficult to do... just as Nick Young.


Oh and for some more facts look at the post above:



If anything Trey was in a tougher situation because he had to fight, Hayward, Gobert, Favors and Booker for time. When Lyles started he shot 44% from three. I'm not saying that Booker is a bad player, I'd love to have him. To say he is a better prospect however isn't really possible to say at this point. Lyles potential is a non-crazy better shooting version of Lamar Odom. Odom's are pretty rare finds, especially for a front court that is dying for someone to provide space like Trey.

So now 11 FGA per game is chucking? The fact of the matter is that he has contributed more to his team than Lyles to his.

I didnt say anything about developing players. I said learning curve. Bigs take longer to develop over the course of a career but in terms of first year as a pro, there is an immense learning curve for guards as the games are played in a very different way which is consequential to guards who are responsible for ball handling and initiating plays.

Regarding their birthdays - i got the months mixed up. regardless, lyles is practically a full year older than booker, which is huge in terms of prospect evaluation.

The fact that you bring up stats like TS% and PER in this discussion is comical. The facts of the matter are that Booker is a year younger , plays almost twice the minutes, has twice as many FGA's per game, and is forced to create his own shot more than Lyles. Those obviously have something to do with decreased PER and TX%. I hate to break it to you, but only stat nerds who make evaluations based on basketballreference.com and dont know anything about basketball would think those are relevant here.

All of the arguments you are using now could be used against rookie Giannis Antetokuompo, who came into the league at around the same age and into the same role and put up the same stats that you used. People who actually watched the game and took into account all of the factors ive mentioned knew he was a special player though.

Lyles is good but he is nowhere near the prospect that Booker is lol

Case closed. They guy will never understand no matter what you say...........

Yup just like that Len vs Gobert debate last year right???

[cyclix]

Justise Winslow's first playoff game in his AGE 19 season

27:06 MIN | 18.2 PER | 66.7% TS | .238 WS/48 | 13.9 BPM

[emi_b7]

Not to take anything away from Justise, but I don't think stats like WS/48 and BMP are meant to be used for single games. He had a good game, there's no need to misuse stats to make him look better or anything.

[MotownMadness]

Justise Winslow's first playoff game in his AGE 19 season

27:06 MIN | 18.2 PER | 66.7% TS | .238 WS/48 | 13.9 BPM

Stanley Johnson first playoff game

16 mins, 28.1 PER, 1.125 TS%, .260 WS/48, 195 ORTG

[emi_b7]

Justise Winslow's first playoff game in his AGE 19 season

27:06 MIN | 18.2 PER | 66.7% TS | .238 WS/48 | 13.9 BPM

Stanley Johnson first playoff game

16 mins, 28.1 PER, 1.125 TS%, .260 WS/48, 195 ORTG

Pat Connaughton first playoff game
72.2 PER, 1.250 TS%, .460 WS/48, 23.3 BPM, 250 ORTG

[Brapman]

Question (earnest, not trolling - promise!) for the Winslow fans. When we picked Stanley over Winslow (actually, Winslow wasn't in the picture at all. SVG said so. The guy in competition for the pick was Booker). A lot of the thinking was that Stanley and Winslow were both strong as hell, but SJ had 20 pounds or so on Justice, making him more of a 3-4 than a 2-3, and able to guard guys like LeBron. Winslow was more of a 2-3, but I note he's also playing some 4 when Miami goes to smaller super-athletic lineups.

The question is, how has Winslow fared going up against LeBron?

[JMac1]

So now 11 FGA per game is chucking? The fact of the matter is that he has contributed more to his team than Lyles to his.

I didnt say anything about developing players. I said learning curve. Bigs take longer to develop over the course of a career but in terms of first year as a pro, there is an immense learning curve for guards as the games are played in a very different way which is consequential to guards who are responsible for ball handling and initiating plays.

Regarding their birthdays - i got the months mixed up. regardless, lyles is practically a full year older than booker, which is huge in terms of prospect evaluation.

The fact that you bring up stats like TS% and PER in this discussion is comical. The facts of the matter are that Booker is a year younger , plays almost twice the minutes, has twice as many FGA's per game, and is forced to create his own shot more than Lyles. Those obviously have something to do with decreased PER and TX%. I hate to break it to you, but only stat nerds who make evaluations based on basketballreference.com and dont know anything about basketball would think those are relevant here.

All of the arguments you are using now could be used against rookie Giannis Antetokuompo, who came into the league at around the same age and into the same role and put up the same stats that you used. People who actually watched the game and took into account all of the factors ive mentioned knew he was a special player though.

Lyles is good but he is nowhere near the prospect that Booker is lol

Case closed. They guy will never understand no matter what you say...........

Yup just like that Len vs Gobert debate last year right???

Dude, Gobert is trash. Len is no better.

[saintEscaton]

Case closed. They guy will never understand no matter what you say...........

Yup just like that Len vs Gobert debate last year right???

Dude, Gobert is trash. Len is no better.

Can't believe that was ever a question. Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up, only our homers will deny its a no contest

[HawaiianJazzFan]

Case closed. They guy will never understand no matter what you say...........

Yup just like that Len vs Gobert debate last year right???

Dude, Gobert is trash. Len is no better.

Absolutely ridiculous statement, Gobert is still the most impactful player on our team. We were 7-15 in games he missed due to injury. In games he played we were a top 3 defense and went 33-27 (that includes games where it was just him and Favors was injured) that winning percentage is better than the Blazers and would be good for the 5 seed. He needs work offensively but he is an absolute GAME changer defensively. Gobert didn't take the next step this season offensively but he also played all summer in euro basket and was injured for 22 games this season. The Jazz ended up top 6 in defense and if you take out the games he missed, they would be top 3.

He was still the number 1 rim protector in the NBA again, and it wasn't really close:

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/defense/?sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*15%7CBLK*G*1

Gobert 41%
Ibaka 44% (3% difference over the season is HUGE)
Bogut 45%
Bismack 45%

He was still a top 5 rebounder in the NBA by pct.
He was number one overall in defensive box plus/minus last year but this year fell to number 2 (only behind Timmy D).
He was top 10 in defensive RPM and if you only count players who play at least 25mpg he's top 5 (behind, kawhi, Draymond, Timmy D, and Bogut).
He was top ten in overall defensive rating.
Gobert was a little better defensively last year but he was still a MONSTER.

[JMac1]

Yup just like that Len vs Gobert debate last year right???

Dude, Gobert is trash. Len is no better.

Can't believe that was ever a question. Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up, only our homers will deny its a no contest

Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim. He is an offensive gimp is why.....horrible.

Utah can have him.....still. Len offense is better than Gobert. Only a Len hater would say it isn't. Suns have homer and haters as fans.

[JMac1]

Yup just like that Len vs Gobert debate last year right???

Dude, Gobert is trash. Len is no better.

Absolutely ridiculous statement, Gobert is still the most impactful player on our team. We were 7-15 in games he missed due to injury. In games he played we were a top 3 defense and went 33-27 (that includes games where it was just him and Favors was injured) that winning percentage is better than the Blazers and would be good for the 5 seed. He needs work offensively but he is an absolute GAME changer defensively. Gobert didn't take the next step this season offensively but he also played all summer in euro basket and was injured for 22 games this season. The Jazz ended up top 6 in defense and if you take out the games he missed, they would be top 3.

He was still the number 1 rim protector in the NBA again, and it wasn't really close:

http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/defense/?sort=DEF_RIM_FG_PCT&dir=-1&CF=MIN*G*15%7CBLK*G*1

Gobert 41%
Ibaka 44% (3% difference over the season is HUGE)
Bogut 45%
Bismack 45%

He was still a top 5 rebounder in the NBA by pct.
He was number one overall in defensive box plus/minus last year but this year fell to number 2 (only behind Timmy D).
He was top 10 in defensive RPM and if you only count players who play at least 25mpg he's top 5 (behind, kawhi, Draymond, Timmy D, and Bogut).
He was top ten in overall defensive rating.
Gobert was a little better defensively last year but he was still a MONSTER.

Monster? How did all of his stats help the team win?.....Yea, you have to play both sides. He kills Utah's offense.

[KokoKaizer]

Dude, Gobert is trash. Len is no better.

Can't believe that was ever a question. Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up, only our homers will deny its a no contest

Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim. He is an offensive gimp is why.....horrible.

Utah can have him.....still. Len offense is better than Gobert. Only a Len hater would say it isn't. Suns have homer and haters as fans.

Just stop.

1) It's the rookie thread

2) Like said before : "Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up".

3) "Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim" --> you clearly don't know him.

[JMac1]

Can't believe that was ever a question. Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up, only our homers will deny its a no contest

Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim. He is an offensive gimp is why.....horrible.

Utah can have him.....still. Len offense is better than Gobert. Only a Len hater would say it isn't. Suns have homer and haters as fans.

Just stop.

1) It's the rookie thread

2) Like said before : "Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up".

3) "Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim" --> you clearly don't know him.

"Just stop, its a rookie thread." Then you comment on Gobert and Len.....wow!

Gobert offense is hot garbage.

Eating up Len (whatever that means) who is trash is meaningless to proving a point about how effective Gobert is or Lyles vs Booker. Btw, I didn't bring Gobert into this discussion. Go attack the poster who did, not me. Thank you.

[KokoKaizer]

Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim. He is an offensive gimp is why.....horrible.

Utah can have him.....still. Len offense is better than Gobert. Only a Len hater would say it isn't. Suns have homer and haters as fans.

Just stop.

1) It's the rookie thread

2) Like said before : "Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up".

3) "Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim" --> you clearly don't know him.

"Just stop, its a rookie thread." Then you comment on Gobert and Len.....wow!

Gobert offense is hot garbage.

Eating up Len (whatever that means) who is trash is meaningless to proving a point about how effective Gobert is or Lyles vs Booker. Btw, I didn't bring Gobert into this discussion. Go attack the poster who did, not me. Thank you.

You did it before me...

Back to the topic, when will the Rookie teams will be announced ?

[JMac1]

Just stop.

1) It's the rookie thread

2) Like said before : "Gobert eats Len alive everytime they match up".

3) "Because Gobert looks like a school girl on offense, can't shoot FT nor make a shot more than 5ft from the rim" --> you clearly don't know him.

"Just stop, its a rookie thread." Then you comment on Gobert and Len.....wow!

Gobert offense is hot garbage.

Eating up Len (whatever that means) who is trash is meaningless to proving a point about how effective Gobert is or Lyles vs Booker. Btw, I didn't bring Gobert into this discussion. Go attack the poster who did, not me. Thank you.

You did it before me...

Back to the topic, when will the Rookie teams will be announced ?

You have to get it in. "You did it before me" now back to topic....wow!

I said I didn't bring up Gobert, attack the poster who did. I didn't say you brought him up....damn man, read, understand, respond.

[KokoKaizer]

"Just stop, its a rookie thread." Then you comment on Gobert and Len.....wow!

Gobert offense is hot garbage.

Eating up Len (whatever that means) who is trash is meaningless to proving a point about how effective Gobert is or Lyles vs Booker. Btw, I didn't bring Gobert into this discussion. Go attack the poster who did, not me. Thank you.

You did it before me...

Back to the topic, when will the Rookie teams will be announced ?

You have to get it in. "You did it before me" now back to topic....wow!

I said I didn't bring up Gobert, attack the poster who did. I didn't say you brought him up....damn man, read, understand, respond.

You just got on a rant against Gobert didn't you? You may not brought it first (Len/Gobert) but you made it worst. If you want to speak with me on this subject just PM me.

So I just ask again (to others) : when the rookies teams will be announced? Thanks in advance!