RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[DreamTeam09]

LeBron's stats & accolades weren't better than MJs in the same amount of games played, so if they started at the same time it probably would be more clear cut

[Capn'O]

You can't do this without settling how the H2H playoff battles resolved and that can't be done. The entire context of this discussion would have been different if they had squared off against each other. Sort of like how Jordan helped establish his legacy by dethroning Isiah and Magic in '91.

[dockingsched]

Question really puts the importance of organization you’re drafted to into perspective. Imagine what a head start either would get by being drafted to Detroit compared to what Cleveland surrounded Lebron with for years.

[Lalouie]

michael @1 just hurts lbj because it's easier to slide when you're not #1
i dont know who drafts mj but IF its detroit, lbj in the atg convo is almost toast. detroit at that time was a top team in the league with a great coach and mj had a charismatic likeable game

ancillary stuff like popularity will come into play

butterfly effect stuff like "does lebron hook up with bosh/wade @miami"

does mj create his own posse? it's a consensus given that the game is just easier to score today

anyway,,it all heavily favors mj and that would kill lbj's muscle. lbj's career has been built on muscle and manipulation

[Iwasawitness]

Are we assuming they go 1st and 3rd like it happened? How would this affect Darko´s legacy?

What legacy?

[Backcountry]

LeBron for sure. MJ turned 40 in 2003, he was way past his prime.

But still, you know that LeBron would be trying to get MJ to create a super team with him.

[bledredwine]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of me to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

At this entire post. The leaps you go through to try to justify your stupid takes are always a joy to see.

A good ol' case of "Tell me that you're 15 without telling me that you're 15."

[DimesandKnicks]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of my above sentence to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. For a stretch, were no superstars in the Eastern conference aside from Paul George and briefly, Derrick Rose and he even had more superstars on his own team than the entire conference. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

Getting out of the east against Ewing and starts and Reggie and the Dunking Dutchman would have been a breeze

[Ferulci]

"I'm going to take my talents to Windy City"

[bledredwine]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of my above sentence to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. For a stretch, were no superstars in the Eastern conference aside from Paul George and briefly, Derrick Rose and he even had more superstars on his own team than the entire conference. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

Getting out of the east against Ewing and starts and Reggie and the Dunking Dutchman would have been a breeze

Have you forgotten about Shaq and Penny?

And the Ewing Knicks were like Dwight's Magic, in your language, and you saw how much Lebron struggled then

But it's disingenuous and dishonest, trying to paint the Knicks like they were some sort of 1-2 punch. They had numerous John Starks level 2-way players at each position surrounding Ewing, who was a monster on both ends.
It was a defensive war in the East, at that time and that was an awesome team with Pat Riley as coach. Ewing was better than whoever you want to name in the 10's aside from the Heatles top 2.

Are you really trying to call Paul George's Pacers better? And by the way, I stated entire league, not just eastern conference, which was a joke in Lebron's time, as we all know and freely admit.

In the west? You had Hakeem, Malone/Stockton, Robinson, Payton/Kemp, Hardaway/Mullin/Richmond for a stretch (eventually Mullin/Hardaway), Larry Johnson/Morning...

so get out of here with that take.

1 Patrick Ewing 30 81 81 37.1 9.6 19.1 .503 0.0 0.1 .143 9.6 19.0 .504 .503 4.9 6.9 .719 2.4 9.7 12.1 1.9 0.9 2.0 3.3 3.5 24.2
2 John Starks 27 80 51 31.0 6.4 15.0 .428 1.4 4.2 .321 5.1 10.8 .469 .473 3.3 4.1 .795 0.7 1.9 2.6 5.1 1.1 0.2 2.2 2.9 17.5
3 Anthony Mason 26 81 0 30.6 3.9 7.8 .502 0.0 0.0 3.9 7.8 .502 .502 2.5 3.6 .682 2.9 5.0 7.9 2.1 0.5 0.2 1.7 3.0 10.3
4 Charles Oakley 29 82 82 27.2 2.7 5.3 .508 0.0 0.0 .000 2.7 5.2 .509 .508 1.5 2.1 .722 3.5 5.1 8.6 1.5 1.0 0.2 1.5 3.5 6.9
5 Charles Smith 27 81 68 26.8 4.4 9.4 .469 0.0 0.0 .000 4.4 9.4 .470 .469 3.5 4.5 .782 2.1 3.2 5.3 1.8 0.6 1.2 1.9 3.1 12.4
6 Doc Rivers 31 77 45 24.5 2.8 6.4 .437 0.5 1.6 .317 2.3 4.8 .477 .477 1.7 2.1 .821 0.3 2.2 2.5 5.3 1.6 0.1 1.5 2.8 7.8
7 Greg Anthony 25 70 35 24.3 2.5 6.0 .415 0.1 0.4 .133 2.4 5.6 .437 .420 1.5 2.3 .673 0.6 1.8 2.4 5.7 1.6 0.2 1.5 2.0 6.6

[og15]

MJ's stats would be even better with the faster pace league and rule changes that would help him. I think it would be an even bigger gap than what it is now.

Depends on which part of his career you're comparing to.

The average pace in Jordan's rookie season was 102.1, the highest we reached in the 2020's is 100.3. Now this doesn't mean Jordan's teams were playing at average pace or faster all the time, but that's a team and playstyle decision, not the league playing slow.

Pace:
84-85 to 90-91: 102.1 - 97.8
91-92: 96.6
92-93: 96.8
93-94 (out) to 1st retire: 95.1 - 90.3

NBA didn't get past 96 again until 17-18

If Jordan started in 03-04 at 19 years old, he would be 33 years old by the time the league average pace reached the level of his first 7 seasons in the NBA.

Jordan before first retirement only played 3 years plus 17 games of the actual slow pace around the whole league.

If he starts in 03-04 at 19, he would instead play 12 seasons of pace between 90.1 and 93.8, so until 14-15. Then in 15-16 when he's 31, the league would finally cross 95 pace. In his real career he played 9 seasons with 95+ pace, sat out another. If he doesn't do baseball and doesn't retire and come back this time and plays straight until let's just say 38 instead for example, he would have 6 seasons with pace from 95.8 to 100.3.

84-85 vs 03-04:
6 seasons vs 12 seasons 95 pace or lower
9 seasons vs 6 seasons 95+ pace


So overall he actually doesn't get a pace advantage, but a disadvantage, and even worse would be that the faster pace would come when he's in his mid to late 30's vs his early career where he could utilize it more.

[TheHartBreakKid]

important question(s) that need to be asked;


In this scenario, does MJ retire and not play in what would be his 10th and 11th seasons (12-13 and 13-14). Going off that, does he take off the 3 seasons a few years later (2018-2020)? Does he retire after the 2022 (his 19th) season?

I know I'm being difficult, but that obviously changes the whole game, the same way the GOAT debate would probably be a lot more one sided if MJ never had his retirements in real life.

[EmpireFalls]

A ton of it depends on who drafts them.

The funniest scenario is Jordan getting drafted by Miami in Wade’s place and then them teaming up in 2010 just like in real life lol.

I can’t answer this without knowing where Jordan gets drafted though

[AbeVigodaLive]

You can't do this without settling how the H2H playoff battles resolved and that can't be done. The entire context of this discussion would have been different if they had squared off against each other. Sort of like how Jordan helped establish his legacy by dethroning Isiah and Magic in '91.

Yeah, this thread is sure to get a ton of responses...

... because there's no real way to answer it objectively.

[Iwasawitness]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of me to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

At this entire post. The leaps you go through to try to justify your stupid takes are always a joy to see.

A good ol' case of "Tell me that you're 15 without telling me that you're 15."

Apart from the fact that I’m probably older than you, it’s ironic given that your arguments are the kind a 15 year old would use. No person in their right mind would ever describe those Spurs teams as “very old”. They’re better than any team Jordan ever beat in the playoffs or finals. And the best part is, that’s not even the best team LeBron’s ever beaten.

[TheHartBreakKid]

A ton of it depends on who drafts them.

The funniest scenario is Jordan getting drafted by Miami in Wade’s place and then them teaming up in 2010 just like in real life lol.

I can’t answer this without knowing where Jordan gets drafted though

lol yeah...too many unknowns.

But honestly, he obviously would get drafted second by the Pistons, and win a championship in his rookie year (Lebron was the more hyped prospect). As he ascends to superstardom while winning endless rings, he'll team up with Wade and Bosh in 2010 as the Pistons age.

He obviously wouldn't have his early retirements in this scenario. Clearly, he would play 21 seasons like Lebron has because of modern medicine, statistically benefiting from the new NBA, winning rings along the way. (Bosh never has health issues; MJ's presence cures him).

[TheGOATRises007]

I honestly think they'd end up on the same team at some point.

[Quattro]

How many different ways can this question be asked?

[TheHartBreakKid]

How many different ways can this question be asked?

What's next?


"If Lebron and MJ switched bodies like Jamie Lee Curtis and Linsdey Lohan in the hit 2003 movie Freaky Friday, who would be the GOAT?"

[The Big O]

LeBron was the better player to me, and did it for considerably longer, therefore LeBron ends up higher on the all time list.