The OFFICIAL rookie impressions thread pt.III

[Shem]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q6kk1ODaD8[/youtube]

[Shem]

You take this stuff way too seriously if this is what you think. I mean, my God, this is all sorts of crazy.

You're doing it. So what does that make you?

I'm doing what? not putting him on the same list as Jordan, and Oscar?

My goodness, i must be pure evil.

Yep, and watching you sarcastically put a name like Jordan in the mix now that wasn't there before as if you were using him as a reference makes you look so innocent how? You have an agenda; it's just not revealed.

[orlando1214]

Here's the Moe Harkless hightlights from the OKC game the other night. He finished with 25 points (11-18 shooting, 2-3 threes), 9 rebounds, 4 steals, and 4 block shots. He's really been playing great as of late, especially defensively. Now with Arron Afflalo being done for the season with an injury, I expect Harkless to get even more of an opportunity on the offensive end for the rest of the season. Extremely excited about him though and his potential. He's only 19 and has a great opportunity here in Orlando.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHiMGeOhygE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

[BlazeSK]

Les be real

Lebron was a 17 yr old kid coming out of HS playing a mans game

Lillard is a 22 year old fully grown adult with 4 years of college experience, non the less at a small school, but still.

I love it when people exaggerate to make a point. LeBron was 19 when he was the ROY award. Nice try!

Let's not forget, Lillard broke his foot 9 games into his junior season. Saying he had 4 years of college experience is a stretch, it was more like two then a setback then one more. People often overlook this, and I think it makes a big difference between that and being a 4 year player.

Seriously, I'm pretty suprised by the responses I'm getting here because I like Lillard as a player, and think he's the ROY, etc... But, it's like if someone isn't willing to put him up there with the all time greats you're going to get a bunch of Blazers fans jumping all over you.

No, it's as I quoted earlier in the thread, you said "players like him are not exactly uncommon." You're calling him a common player. That's just.. Ridiculous. I don't think he's the next Lebron in PG form, I don't think he's the next CP3, I even have a hard time imagining he's going to be as good as Kyrie seems like he will be. But to call him "common" is just hilariously ridiculous. That's why people are bothered. Not because you don't think he's going to go down as an all time great, but that you think he is a COMMON player based off of some unreal rookie stats.

[Dame Lizard]

Here's the Moe Harkless hightlights from the OKC game the other night. He finished with 25 points (11-18 shooting, 2-3 threes), 9 rebounds, 4 steals, and 4 block shots. He's really been playing great as of late, especially defensively. Now with Arron Afflalo being done for the season with an injury, I expect Harkless to get even more of an opportunity on the offensive end for the rest of the season. Extremely excited about him though and his potential. He's only 19 and has a great opportunity here in Orlando.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHiMGeOhygE&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

What a beast!

If I had never seen his stats before, just from that video alone I'd guess he were a superstar.

Loving the magic youngsters.

If Orlando were to hang onto these youngsters for the next 5 years, how do you reckon the future line up would look like?

Vucevic is a shoe in at centre, but Harkless/Harris and Harris/Nicholson is the real question?

[orlando1214]

What a beast!

If I had never seen his stats before, just from that video alone I'd guess he were a superstar.

Loving the magic youngsters.

If Orlando were to hang onto these youngsters for the next 5 years, how do you reckon the future line up would look like?

Vucevic is a shoe in at centre, but Harkless/Harris and Harris/Nicholson is the real question?

Well I know a lot of people on the Magic board would love to see Harkless eventually move to Shooting Guard so that Harris can start at Small Forward, but we'll see if that's how the organization wants to develop Harkless. The problem with Nicholson is that he is a pretty bad defender. So even though he is a good offensive player, for now he's just not the best fit to start next to Vucevic who is already not the greatest defender ever. We'll see how he improves during the offseason though.

I could definitely see one day having all 4 of them starting though. However, with the high draft picks the Magic will have this year and probably next year as well, and the massive capspace they will have, who knows how the team will look in 5 years. I would definitely say Harkless, Harris, Vucevic, and whoever the Magic pick in this years draft are the cornerstones of the rebuild though with Nicholson having the potential to join them. Either way though, I'm very excited about the future of the Magic, especially considering how this time last year they were going through the Dwight stuff and had pretty much zero financial flexibility. Rob Hennigan has done a fantastic job in his first year as GM getting all these good young players and creating a ton of future cap space, and I definitely think the future of the organization is in good hands.

[Hendrix]

Yep, and watching you sarcastically put a name like Jordan in the mix now that wasn't there before as if you were using him as a reference makes you look so innocent how? You have an agenda; it's just not revealed.

My God, I fear Lillard is driving you insane.

Take a step back and try and understand what you are saying. You are accusing me of having an agenda because because I only think Lillard is a very good rookie that deserves ROY, but doesn't belong on manipulated short lists with all time greats because they try and make him look better than he is. And, that is true for all players.

I have no clue what you are referring to with Jordan. Maybe try reading the last few pages where Lillard was put on short lists with Jordan, and a Blazer fan said Lillard had a comparable season to Jordan.

If anyone has an agenda it is quite clearly, and obviously you, if you can't handle someone saying that Lillard is a great rook but doesn't belong on lists with the likes of all time greats.

[Hendrix]

No, it's as I quoted earlier in the thread, you said "players like him are not exactly uncommon." You're calling him a common player. That's just.. Ridiculous. I don't think he's the next Lebron in PG form, I don't think he's the next CP3, I even have a hard time imagining he's going to be as good as Kyrie seems like he will be. But to call him "common" is just hilariously ridiculous. That's why people are bothered. Not because you don't think he's going to go down as an all time great, but that you think he is a COMMON player based off of some unreal rookie stats.

I believe you are referring to someone else saying that he is not exactly uncommon.

And, what I think the guy was referring to is that there is about a dozen very good PG's in the league, so it's hard to be a real difference maker at that position.

[Wizenheimer]

No, it's as I quoted earlier in the thread, you said "players like him are not exactly uncommon." You're calling him a common player. That's just.. Ridiculous. I don't think he's the next Lebron in PG form, I don't think he's the next CP3, I even have a hard time imagining he's going to be as good as Kyrie seems like he will be. But to call him "common" is just hilariously ridiculous. That's why people are bothered. Not because you don't think he's going to go down as an all time great, but that you think he is a COMMON player based off of some unreal rookie stats.

I believe you are referring to someone else saying that he is not exactly uncommon.

And, what I think the guy was referring to is that there is about a dozen very good PG's in the league, so it's hard to be a real difference maker at that position.

actually, the statement was this:

"I guess defense also doesn't matter at all? Anthony Davis is already an impactful defender while Lillard is one of the worst defensive Pgs in the league.

I wouldn't put Davis over Lillard for ROY simply because Davis has missed many games but when healthy he can be a much bigger game changer. Drummond also has no case due to similar issues but also a much bigger game changer. Players like Lillard are not exactly uncommon. Plenty of good PGs in the league, some of them can play defense as well."

which is completely laughable. Somehow, someway, a giant mythology has developed giving Davis credit for being a great defender now. But statistically, he's anything but a great defender now

Synergy data lists Davis as giving up 0.94 points/possession. That ranks 344th in the NBA. In case your math is bad, that would mean that 343 NBA players have a better mark. Perhaps even more noticeable is his post-up number. He gives up 0.91 points/possession which ranks 169th. For a frontcourt player to rank 169th is not impressive at all

to further say he is an "impactful defender" displays some imagination. If he was truly impactful this season, the Hornets would be a better defensive team when he was on the floor. But unfortunately for the 'Davis = great defender narrative', the Hornets are actually a little better defensively when Davis is on the bench then on the floor

furthermore, Davis splits his time, according to 82games, between PF and C. He's giving up an eFG% of .528 to PF's and .568 to C's. He's also allowing opposing PF's to post a 19.7 PER and C's to post a 20.1 PER. For comparison, Robin Lopez, full-time C, is giving up a .533 eFG% and a 18.5 PER. For chrissakes, JJ Hickson, who is barely 6'9 and clearly a weak defender is holding opposing C's to an eFG% of .519 and a PER of 19.5, both of which are better marks then Davis

it's just a bit loopy to claim that Davis is an impactful defender this season

Now, it may be that a realistic projection of his career trajectory shows the potential for him to become and elite defender. He has the length and he has the mobility. He obviously needs to develop more physically and put on some effective mass. I'd say he has a pretty good chance to do so. But it isn't certain he will, and he's not anywhere close to that level yet

I'm not saying he isn't a great prospect. There's a reason he was the clear #1 pick. He's certainly shown that his offensive skills are a little better then advertised. But that does not extend, yet, to the the other end of the floor
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as far as Lillard's defense, there is no doubt he needs to work on it. He can be good at times on that end of the floor; other times he's lost.

I do think the other poster was significantly exaggerating Lillard's defensive flaws.

Synergy shows Lillard as giving up 0.85 points/possession which ranks 159th (remember that Davis was at 0.95 for 344th). For comparison, Chris Paul gives up 0.86 points/possession which ranks 173rd. Deron Williams gives up 0.84 which ranks 129th.

Lillard allows opposing PG's to post a .458 eFG%, a points/48 mark of 18.7 and a PER of 14.3

how does that stack up against some other PG's?

Lillard: eFG% .458....pts/48 18.7....PER 14.3

Deron Williams: eFG% .502....pts/48 - 20.0....PER 14.8
Chris Paul: eFG% ..499....pts/48 - 18.4....PER 15.7
Kyrie Irving: eFG% .518....pts/48 - 21.7....PER 18.6
Ty Lawson: eFG% .503....pts/48 - 20.9....PER 15.0
Stephen Curry: eFG% .502....pts/48 - 21.0....PER 16.6
Mike Conley: eFG% ..445....pts/48 - 18.5....PER 13.9
Russel Westbrook: eFG% ..478....pts/48 - 15.4....PER 19.2
Jrue Holiday: eFG% ..492....pts/48 - 20.5....PER 16.4
Ty Lawson: eFG% .503....pts/48 - 20.9....PER 15.0
Tony Parker: eFG% .436....pts/48 - 18.5....PER 13.2

for being credited as being such a bad defender it's pretty interesting how he stacks up against a bunch of other NBA PG's. Especially considering he's a rookie being compared to veterans, almost all of whom play on better defensive teams then Portland. If I was to go back and track each of those players in their rookie seasons, how do you suppose the comparison would look then?

granted, probably all supposed defensive metrics should be viewed individually as a bit suspect. Too many variables. However when several metrics tend to show the same thing, you can probably give them a little more credence

like I said at the beginning of this post, I think there's some mythology giving Davis credit for being a better defender then he is. I also think the same type of mythology is debiting Lillard for being a worse defender then he is. If Lillard is a bad defender, then almost all starting NBA PG's are bad defenders

[Shem]

I have no clue what you are referring to with Jordan. Maybe try reading the last few pages where Lillard was put on short lists with Jordan, and a Blazer fan said Lillard had a comparable season to Jordan.

I have read what happened and it's you who has been obsessing with Jordan like people are trying to bring him into the conversation and they're not while others have been trying to compare Lillard's rookie season to other NBA point guards and Lillard having a season where a player in their rookie season.

The only exception is LeBron James because it hasn't been since LeBron that Lillard is doing in terms of scoring and assists. Granted LeBron doing it at 19 is massively impressive and that he's not a point guard, but the fact that it's been 9 years since somebody is doing it now, that namely Lillard is also impressive since no other player let alone a point guard in that time has done what Lillard is doing now this season in that 9 year period.

While you didn't originally bring up that Lillard isn't exactly common argument, you sure have been the one to defend it as if you should have been the one who said it by downplaying Lillard's accomplishments like they're not a big deal.


If anyone has an agenda it is quite clearly, and obviously you, if you can't handle someone saying that Lillard is a great rook but doesn't belong on lists with the likes of all time greats.

[mopper8]

The only exception is LeBron James because it hasn't been since LeBron that Lillard is doing in terms of scoring and assists.

Dame is averaging 19.1p and 6.5a
Tyreke Evans averaged 20.1p and 5.8a as a rookie just a few years ago.

So that's not really an accurate statement at all.

[Copperhead]

Just wondering, how many mpg and field goal attempts did all those guys display in their rookie years? How many of them went all 4 years of college as to coming in as polished as Lillard?

[Shem]

The only exception is LeBron James because it hasn't been since LeBron that Lillard is doing in terms of scoring and assists.

Dame is averaging 19.1p and 6.5a
Tyreke Evans averaged 20.1p and 5.8a as a rookie just a few years ago.

So that's not really an accurate statement at all.

Really? Because it wasn't that long ago that there were articles written about milestones Lillard hit that the last time it was hit was LeBron. And in those articles it was totals through certain game numbers. So whatever...

[mopper8]

The only exception is LeBron James because it hasn't been since LeBron that Lillard is doing in terms of scoring and assists.

Dame is averaging 19.1p and 6.5a
Tyreke Evans averaged 20.1p and 5.8a as a rookie just a few years ago.

So that's not really an accurate statement at all.

Really? Because it wasn't that long ago that there were articles written about milestones Lillard hit that the last time it was hit was LeBron. And in those articles it was totals through certain game numbers. So whatever...

You have zero credibility if you can't look at those stats and admit that Evans had nearly identical point/assist production to Lillard. Take the homer goggles off.

[poopdamoop]

Shem making a strong case for All-Defensive 1st Team

[Sabzi]

The only exception is LeBron James because it hasn't been since LeBron that Lillard is doing in terms of scoring and assists.

Dame is averaging 19.1p and 6.5a
Tyreke Evans averaged 20.1p and 5.8a as a rookie just a few years ago.

So that's not really an accurate statement at all.

Really? Because it wasn't that long ago that there were articles written about milestones Lillard hit that the last time it was hit was LeBron. And in those articles it was totals through certain game numbers. So whatever...

He went Clueless with his man-love.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jcvVKYrYzc[/youtube]

[Shem]

You have zero credibility if you can't look at those stats and admit that Evans had nearly identical point/assist production to Lillard. Take the homer goggles off.

Oh, so is that what Hoops Nation is doing as well for example?

http://www.hoops-nation.com/damian-lill ... -team-usa/

Damian Lillard, the first NBA player since LeBron James to record 1,000 points and 300 assists in their first 55 career games, is being considered for Team USA’s basketball team.

Or even Dime Magazine? So when data like that is released and you don't see Evan's name there, what do you expect people to think when they're using those references like I was doing. You make it sound like I deliberately blew it off.

But obviously Evans didn't put that type of production through 55 games or any other game totals that have been mentioned throughout the year as this isn't the first time this sort of comparison has happened or wouldn't his name be mentioned as well?

The the reason for the LeBron comparisons from what I'm seeing is from a certain amount of games is because of how close LeBron got to the at least 18 PPG and 6 APG in their rookie seasons. LeBron didn't have a good last game of the season which led to finishing with 5.9 APG just falling short.

But Lillard is doing something that only Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Damon Stoudamire, Allen Iverson, and Steve Francis have only done. And LeBron through the pace of the season was the last to do it thus why the LeBron comparisons. Maybe Evans' finished with a very strong season to get this APG up to a 5.8 average, but obviously when they were using through 20 games, though 30 games, through 55 games... etc, Evans wasn't there in those articles I was reading so naturally I did the math and realized that it has been 9 years since that has happened.

[Copperhead]

My goodness. I just checked out of curiosity. Have you guys seen how many mpg guys like Oscar, Lebron, Stoudamire and Iverson averaged in their rookie seasons?

[Shem]

My goodness. I just checked out of curiosity. Have you guys seen how many mpg guys like Oscar, Lebron, Stoudamire and Iverson averaged in their rookie seasons?

But have you also noticed how people talk about that being a bad thing like it's not fair or something. Especially those Anthony Davis homers.

[Copperhead]

My goodness. I just checked out of curiosity. Have you guys seen how many mpg guys like Oscar, Lebron, Stoudamire and Iverson averaged in their rookie seasons?

But have you also noticed how people talk about that being a bad thing like it's not fair or something. Especially those Anthony Davis homers.

You should hardly be quick to call anyone a homer guy.

Playing minutes isn't a bad thing. But being able to stay on the court helps you be able to get points + assists. Not every player will make the most out of their minutes though. Lillard has.

It's kind of like the Most Improved Player. A lot of MIP's aren't really all that improved at all. It may seem that way though because they've gotten more minutes or a new/different role.