RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[bledredwine]

Category: excuses

[Statlanta]

I think the Centers are underrated in this conversation. The media wants us to think its a Jordan vs. LeBron debate when the top 11 spots are dominated by 5 Centers(6 if you include Duncan). Considering we don't have good defensive statistics, the DPOY didn't take hold until 1980 and that blocks weren't counted until 73 I think the conversation has been heavily skewed to smaller offensive oriented players.


Hell even the poll having Oscar Robertson over George Mikan seems bad given how portable the Mikan archetype is versus Robertson's.

[ReggiesKnicks]

I think the Centers are underrated in this conversation. The media wants us to think its a Jordan vs. LeBron debate when the top 11 spots are dominated by 5 Centers(6 if you include Duncan). Considering we don't have good defensive statistics, the DPOY didn't take hold until 1980 and that blocks weren't counted until 73 I think the conversation has been heavily skewed to smaller offensive oriented players.


Hell even the poll having Oscar Robertson over George Mikan seems bad given how portable the Mikan archetype is versus Robertson's.

Oscar is incredible portable.

-High IQ
-GOAT level passer
-GOAT level ball handling (era relative)
-Incredible size for a lead guard
-Great shooter

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

I will say, Kevin Durant is likely the single most skilled, unstoppable scorer I've watched in 30+ years of NBA fandom.

I understand why he isn't in the GOAT debate, but it's still a shame.

He's become the textbook example of why great players still need elite coaching, a top organization (plus a little bit of luck) to reach superstardom on a contender.

See:
Duncan, Tim
Bryant, Kobe
Jordan, Michael
Curry, Steph

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[HighFlyer23]

Doesn't manufacture this "GOAT" debate between MJ and LeBron

Does it ever occur at any point, because they warrant a comparison?

Really don't see it except maybe 09 LeBron

[-Luke-]

Give us each day our daily MJ vs. LeBron thread.
(Luke 11:2-4)

[AmIWrongDude]

What a new and interesting discussion to have

[EmpireFalls]

I actually have to ask how old you are, because someone who lived through the LeBron HS era would never ask that question. Klutch didn’t exist back in 2002. LeBron James was the most hyped HS prospect ever and at age 16/17 was being interviewed by Bob Costas saying if he isn’t a top tier hall of famer he would have failed. Unless you think the media machine was being puppet-mastered by a teenager, most of the noise is pretty obviously coming from elsewhere.

I really think we need to go back and look at how history played out. Before he had played a single NBA game the comparisons to MJ were abundant. Did you think they would stop when he actually played up to those expectations, winning the MVPs and titles and setting records?

If you think MJ is ahead that’s fine, his 6 FMVPs will live forever. But let’s not act as if the LeBron-Jordan comparisons haven’t been ongoing for two decades now.

Two YouTube videos for you:

From 2002: https://youtu.be/mZE4NuH_uuA?si=xWBsRd7CQ9YD_GeO

From 2010: https://youtu.be/C62zHgyt9cU?si=6Nfu9Dwld294pP5c

[Prince187]

Honestly it never does. LeBron is the most astroturfed and manufactured superstar in sports history.

[SlimShady83]

[Karate Diop]

Lol man... You can tell who didn't grow up in the 90's

If we're talking media manipulation, there's never been a worse player than Jordan.

[Stan]

They were comparing an inferior player in Kobe to Jordan for a while so yes, I would say LeBron still gets the GOAT discussion, no matter how upset this makes OP lol

[bkkrh]

So you are wanting to start a debate about the GOAT debate being a conspiracy? That has to be Lebron's biggest 4D chess move yet. Seems like nobody is safe from him.

[HighFlyer23]

I actually have to ask how old you are, because someone who lived through the LeBron HS era would never ask that question. Klutch didn’t exist back in 2002. LeBron James was the most hyped HS prospect ever and at age 16/17 was being interviewed by Bob Costas saying if he isn’t a top tier hall of famer he would have failed. Unless you think the media machine was being puppet-mastered by a teenager, most of the noise is pretty obviously coming from elsewhere.

I really think we need to go back and look at how history played out. Before he had played a single NBA game the comparisons to MJ were abundant. Did you think they would stop when he actually played up to those expectations, winning the MVPs and titles and setting records?

If you think MJ is ahead that’s fine, his 6 FMVPs will live forever. But let’s not act as if the LeBron-Jordan comparisons haven’t been ongoing for two decades now.

Two YouTube videos for you:

From 2002: https://youtu.be/mZE4NuH_uuA?si=xWBsRd7CQ9YD_GeO

From 2010: https://youtu.be/C62zHgyt9cU?si=6Nfu9Dwld294pP5c

Iverson Kobe Vince tmac every damn all star wing or sg was compared to MJ. The media has a tendency to get into these comparisons.

The current debate is manufacturered. A guy who had to learn how to win from another player and team hopped failed harder than any superstar in NBA history in 2011 and who has a losing record in the finals is not on the level of Jordan.


Would only have two titles if it weren't for Ray Allen and kyrie Irving.

[RRR3]

Hope MJ fans enjoyed that game winner yesterday.

[The High Cyde]

Hope MJ fans enjoyed that game winner yesterday.

Like them Wizards years, it never happened!

[Ainosterhaspie]

Jordan isn't the reason there weren't other dynasties in the 90s. No other team was good enough to become one and if Jordan never existed, the 90s would have looked more like the 70s with several different one year winners. Houston still gets 2 max. Utah gets two max. Maybe New York gets a couple. Outside of that, you get a few more teams who win one. There just wasn't another team stacked with enough talent, health and good coaching in that decade.

The discussion is too focused on the word though instead of the broader picture. It doesn't really.matter if a team was or could have been a dynasty. It matters how good the team was the year a player faced them. The 83 Sixers weren't a dynasty, but beating them that year would have been as impressive an achievement as beating any dynasty. It doesn't matter how good a team was the year before or the next year, it matters how good they are the year you face them.

[michaelm]

Jordan probably did have something to do with the Bulls dynasty, 6 wins in 8 years with 6 FMVPs, the only 6 titles the Bulls have ever won while being a rather hapless franchise otherwise.

However you guys try to explain it away this is what happened in the real world rather than hypothetically, and one of his teams was very possibly the best ever.

[michaelm]

Hope MJ fans enjoyed that game winner yesterday.

You can get back to me when he does it in the finals this year.