Tatum VS Luka

[Bob8]

What’s more important than a championship for the legacy of the best player on a team?

Dirk got one ring and it changed the narrative on him- Dirk did it in style too...beat the heatletts lol

Real talk - I love both guys - I just value chips over anything

It changed the narrative, but I'm not sure it should have. He should have been highly regarded before. Let's say Lebron in 2011 plays to the level he did for the following decade and he wins in 2011. Dirk doesn't play any differently, but now his career is looked upon vastly differently, and he may still have the label of playoff choker. Is that fair or objective analysis of a player?

No not fair to Dirk…. but it is the reality of high end competition.

Competition is about winning - not playing well - it’s about winning at the highest level.

You have to turn talent that translates into stats into wins.

Luka - like harden - can get stats- we know he is a monster - but luka won’t be in the pantheon of greats until he either does something stat wise completely outrageous like Westbrook did OR he wins a chip like Dirk. And while I love Prime Westbrook he is NO DIRK… to me and Westbrook best stat year is OUTRAGEOUS. But what Dirk did was he took his team to the mountain top. If Tatum does that in the highest leverage moment tatum will have the lead in this two man race

By your definition is Beno Udrih far better player than Luka and Tatum.

[CobraCommander]

Until Luka comes in in shape and serious about taking the league over why should y’all be vouching for him? Dude closer to Zion fitness than Tatums...think about that..

Luka generational talent with subpar work ethic off the court...

Tatum all nba 1st team talented with amazing work ethic...


If Tatum gets a ring he is ahead of Luka by default in my book...

stop treating him like zion lol hes likely eating junk food for few weeks before training camp. what does that prove tatum has amazing work ethic? and he made his 1st all nba team hes the one with the sub par improvement. when your already perennial mvp at age 20 yeah theres literally nothing to improve while even being out of shape. like you dont understand guys that have been top of the food chain for so long at a young age. doncic is pretty much a smaller version of jokic he doesnt take seriously summer vacation either. yes they would have been goat if they only did basketball 24/7 but life is bigger than a childs game.

Work out, do conditioning, eat right - get in the best possible shape because you are a quarter billion dollar athlete with Fans that would ride and die for you.

Just like Lebron, Jordan,
Giannis, Kobe, Steph, Tatum, Trae and every other work out warriors on Twitter and social media lol

[SelfishPlayer]

Luka is the best player in the league with Jokic and Giannis. Tatum is not quite there and he hasn't carried the Celtics, the Celtics got to the finals because everyone stepped up. Even when Tatum had awful games the team was winning games, that wasn't the case with the Mavs.

The Mavs won playoff games without Luka.

[CobraCommander]

It changed the narrative, but I'm not sure it should have. He should have been highly regarded before. Let's say Lebron in 2011 plays to the level he did for the following decade and he wins in 2011. Dirk doesn't play any differently, but now his career is looked upon vastly differently, and he may still have the label of playoff choker. Is that fair or objective analysis of a player?

No not fair to Dirk…. but it is the reality of high end competition.

Competition is about winning - not playing well - it’s about winning at the highest level.

You have to turn talent that translates into stats into wins.

Luka - like harden - can get stats- we know he is a monster - but luka won’t be in the pantheon of greats until he either does something stat wise completely outrageous like Westbrook did OR he wins a chip like Dirk. And while I love Prime Westbrook he is NO DIRK… to me and Westbrook best stat year is OUTRAGEOUS. But what Dirk did was he took his team to the mountain top. If Tatum does that in the highest leverage moment tatum will have the lead in this two man race

By your definition Beno Udrih is far better player than Luka and Tatum.

Wha?

Please tell me when Beno was the focal point of an nba franchise an Allstar and an allNBA first team player?

Luka and Tatum in the same tier - we talking about who is better between the two - nothing else man

[BmanInBigD]

Yeah but every year a new person pops up and is ahead of him in mvp...Embiid and Booker last year...and he lost ground on Giannis and a Jokic last year....pretty much everyone but Embiid did

Luka a top 5 to 10 offensive player regular season...but top 1-3 in playoffs? That more of an indication that this guy still isn’t taking his job seriously. If Tatum wins a ring this year there will be nothing you can tell me that will convince me that that Tatum isn’t better and his playing style isn’t more conducive for winning than Luka cause I really don’t care about gaudy stats like harden and Luka if it doesn’t equal rings. I also conceded that you are a good poster and your defense of Luka are logical and well formed.

But We have seen Tatum lead a team to the finals going through KD, Kyrie, Giannis, butler and is now ahead against GSW...and even when a Tatum is having a bad shooting night he is finding ways to contribute by staying in front of his man, making the right pass and all the other things that the best basketball players do. If Lukas shot not falling his team is doomed...that’s not only about the teammates it’s about Luka being toooooo onnnneeeee dimensional at 6’8” and 23 years old when compared to all the greats like Tatum and Giannis.

Until Luka comes in in shape and serious about taking the league over why should y’all be vouching for him? Dude closer to Zion fitness than Tatums...think about that..

Luka generational talent with subpar work ethic off the court...

Tatum all nba 1st team talented with amazing work ethic...


If Tatum gets a ring he is ahead of Luka by default in my book...

Thats an awful lot of weight to put on 2-3 remaining games

What’s more important than a championship for the legacy of the best player on a team?

Dirk got one ring and it changed the narrative on him- Dirk did it in style too...beat the heatletts lol

Real talk - I love both guys - I just value chips over anything

It only changed the narrative on him for people who weren’t really paying attention. Elevating someone cuz of one ring they win when the stars line up is really kind of silly and simple-minded.

[nikster]

What’s more important than a championship for the legacy of the best player on a team?

Dirk got one ring and it changed the narrative on him- Dirk did it in style too...beat the heatletts lol

Real talk - I love both guys - I just value chips over anything

It changed the narrative, but I'm not sure it should have. He should have been highly regarded before. Let's say Lebron in 2011 plays to the level he did for the following decade and he wins in 2011. Dirk doesn't play any differently, but now his career is looked upon vastly differently, and he may still have the label of playoff choker. Is that fair or objective analysis of a player?

No not fair to Dirk…. but it is the reality of high end competition.

Competition is about winning - not playing well - it’s about winning at the highest level.

You have to turn talent that translates into stats into wins.

Luka - like harden - can get stats- we know he is a monster - but luka won’t be in the pantheon of greats until he either does something stat wise completely outrageous like Westbrook did OR he wins a chip like Dirk. And while I love Prime Westbrook he is NO DIRK… to me and Westbrook best stat year is OUTRAGEOUS. But what Dirk did was he took his team to the mountain top. If Tatum does that in the highest leverage moment tatum will have the lead in this two man race

So the question is, would you personally view Dirk in a far different light if he didnt win 2011 because of factors outside of his control?

[CobraCommander]

Thats an awful lot of weight to put on 2-3 remaining games

What’s more important than a championship for the legacy of the best player on a team?

Dirk got one ring and it changed the narrative on him- Dirk did it in style too...beat the heatletts lol

Real talk - I love both guys - I just value chips over anything

It only changed the narrative on him for people who weren’t really paying attention. Elevating someone cuz of one ring they win when the stars line up is really kind of silly and simple-minded.

To give Luka a ton of credit for not doing anything but getting offensive stats that a ton of other guys are getting while Tatum is first team all nba AND gives you a ring. Y’all willing to give Luka a pass when in a close out game he went 3 for 13 for 3 and his defense was horrible - but Tatum shoots bad and gets 12 assist and plays amazing defense… but Luka better when he is part of the problem on defense while people on GSW saying Tatum is leading the Boston team… yeah man - the goal is to win a chip -

Would Boston rather have This situation up 2-1 with Tatum this one year or Luka going forward? Tatum and right now cause there is no guarantee either team gets back to this point

[Archx]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Luka, Tatum and Ja are easily the 3 best young players in NBA. When Tatum is not on the floor, the Celtics are really bad. So for all the talk about how balanced and well constructed their roster is…. It falls apart without Tatum. The Grizzlies won a lot of games without Ja. The Mavs played very well against Utah without Luka. Of the three, Tatum is the one guy who is a huge positive every minute he is on the court because he is a huge lynchpin for the Celtics defense as well as being the focal point of offense. Ja is far and away the best athlete so his ceiling could be the highest. Luka is the most skilled with the best feel. Tatum is the biggest, longest and most balanced 2 way player. I think this argument should be tabled for a decade as all 3 are off to amazing careers.

What are we talking about here? People keep flip flopping between regular season and playoffs. I'm really confused now. It used to be playoff is the real deal and a proper way to evaluate players. Now suddenly it's all about regular season?

But here are some minor details for the playoffs. Since that's mostly what actual players do care about.

How do you explain the fact that Celtics are +4.6 and Mavs -2.6 in the playoffs without their stars on the floor? This doesn't look like Celtics just fall apart without Tatum, it's quite the opposite lol... And btw, Luka has better On/Off numbers for the playoffs than Tatum. But it's true that Tatum still has few games where he can drastically improve though.

I asked the other guy to explain how Mavs won those two games vs Jazz and he ignored it because he's mostly trolling, but i would love to hear your opinion on that.

[Bob8]

No not fair to Dirk…. but it is the reality of high end competition.

Competition is about winning - not playing well - it’s about winning at the highest level.

You have to turn talent that translates into stats into wins.

Luka - like harden - can get stats- we know he is a monster - but luka won’t be in the pantheon of greats until he either does something stat wise completely outrageous like Westbrook did OR he wins a chip like Dirk. And while I love Prime Westbrook he is NO DIRK… to me and Westbrook best stat year is OUTRAGEOUS. But what Dirk did was he took his team to the mountain top. If Tatum does that in the highest leverage moment tatum will have the lead in this two man race

By your definition Beno Udrih is far better player than Luka and Tatum.

Wha?

Please tell me when Beno was the focal point of an nba franchise an Allstar and an allNBA first team player?

Luka and Tatum in the same tier - we talking about who is better between the two - nothing else man

Ok. Is Tatum with title better than young MJ?

[CobraCommander]

By your definition Beno Udrih is far better player than Luka and Tatum.

Wha?

Please tell me when Beno was the focal point of an nba franchise an Allstar and an allNBA first team player?

Luka and Tatum in the same tier - we talking about who is better between the two - nothing else man

Ok. Is Tatum with title better than young MJ?

Jordan was considered by all his peers except for like Isiah to be the best individual player on earth- the best guys on earth not saying Luka better than them… Giannis and KD and Definitely not Jokic are not seeing Luka as a threat to their dominance lol

Mj was literally considered the next evolution of basketball player- wilt like athletic gifts and Bird like manic competitive energy -

Let’s not put Luka or Tatum in the MJ category-

Closes thing we saw of that was Lebron and maybe Giannis - Luka not that cause he is not

[GeorgeMarcus]

Nobody can give you an answer what would have happened.

Like most things on this basketball board, we can give our speculative reasoning as to what we think would happen. And in that sense I am surely in the majority.

[BmanInBigD]

What’s more important than a championship for the legacy of the best player on a team?

Dirk got one ring and it changed the narrative on him- Dirk did it in style too...beat the heatletts lol

Real talk - I love both guys - I just value chips over anything

It only changed the narrative on him for people who weren’t really paying attention. Elevating someone cuz of one ring they win when the stars line up is really kind of silly and simple-minded.

To give Luka a ton of credit for not doing anything but getting offensive stats that a ton of other guys are getting while Tatum is first team all nba AND gives you a ring. Y’all willing to give Luka a pass when in a close out game he went 3 for 13 for 3 and his defense was horrible - but Tatum shoots bad and gets 12 assist and plays amazing defense… but Luka better when he is part of the problem on defense while people on GSW saying Tatum is leading the Boston team… yeah man - the goal is to win a chip -

Would Boston rather have This situation up 2-1 with Tatum this one year or Luka going forward? Tatum and right now cause there is no guarantee either team gets back to this point

That literally has NOTHING to do with what I said. My point was that Tatum winning a ring doesn’t necessarily elevate his status, just means he’s still a really good player on a really good team. Just like Dirk. And they (especially Dirk) were really good and positively impactful before winning a “chip” as well as if they hadn’t won one. But ringz….oh brother.

[CobraCommander]

It only changed the narrative on him for people who weren’t really paying attention. Elevating someone cuz of one ring they win when the stars line up is really kind of silly and simple-minded.

To give Luka a ton of credit for not doing anything but getting offensive stats that a ton of other guys are getting while Tatum is first team all nba AND gives you a ring. Y’all willing to give Luka a pass when in a close out game he went 3 for 13 for 3 and his defense was horrible - but Tatum shoots bad and gets 12 assist and plays amazing defense… but Luka better when he is part of the problem on defense while people on GSW saying Tatum is leading the Boston team… yeah man - the goal is to win a chip -

Would Boston rather have This situation up 2-1 with Tatum this one year or Luka going forward? Tatum and right now cause there is no guarantee either team gets back to this point

That literally has NOTHING to do with what I said. My point was that Tatum winning a ring doesn’t necessarily elevate his status, just means he’s still a really good player on a really good team. Just like Dirk. And they (especially Dirk) were really good and positively impactful before winning a “chip” as well as if they hadn’t won one. But ringz….oh brother.

So what exactly sets Luka apart from anyone ? He isn’t the best at literally anything? Neither is Tatum? They both really good - nearly equally so- I have Tatum better because his best offensive games equal to Luka and his defense is a million miles ahead -

So if all things close or equal - I gave the nod to the champion

[SelfishPlayer]

If Tatum gets a ring, it will come with the highest status because he got it as the best player on the team that drafted him.

[Woodsanity]

To give Luka a ton of credit for not doing anything but getting offensive stats that a ton of other guys are getting while Tatum is first team all nba AND gives you a ring. Y’all willing to give Luka a pass when in a close out game he went 3 for 13 for 3 and his defense was horrible - but Tatum shoots bad and gets 12 assist and plays amazing defense… but Luka better when he is part of the problem on defense while people on GSW saying Tatum is leading the Boston team… yeah man - the goal is to win a chip -

Would Boston rather have This situation up 2-1 with Tatum this one year or Luka going forward? Tatum and right now cause there is no guarantee either team gets back to this point

That literally has NOTHING to do with what I said. My point was that Tatum winning a ring doesn’t necessarily elevate his status, just means he’s still a really good player on a really good team. Just like Dirk. And they (especially Dirk) were really good and positively impactful before winning a “chip” as well as if they hadn’t won one. But ringz….oh brother.

So what exactly sets Luka apart from anyone ? He isn’t the best at literally anything? Neither is Tatum? They both really good - nearly equally so- I have Tatum better because his best offensive games equal to Luka and his defense is a million miles ahead -

So if all things close or equal - I gave the nod to the champion

Tatum isn't even half the offensive player Luka is. A guy who gives you 50 points one game and then 10 points the next game. He isn't carrying any mediocre team anywhere but the lottery.

Celtics are a very good balanced team that is all.

[CobraCommander]

That literally has NOTHING to do with what I said. My point was that Tatum winning a ring doesn’t necessarily elevate his status, just means he’s still a really good player on a really good team. Just like Dirk. And they (especially Dirk) were really good and positively impactful before winning a “chip” as well as if they hadn’t won one. But ringz….oh brother.

So what exactly sets Luka apart from anyone ? He isn’t the best at literally anything? Neither is Tatum? They both really good - nearly equally so- I have Tatum better because his best offensive games equal to Luka and his defense is a million miles ahead -

So if all things close or equal - I gave the nod to the champion

Tatum isn't even half the offensive player Luka is. A guy who gives you 50 points one game and then 10 points the next game. He isn't carrying any mediocre team anywhere but the lottery.

Celtics are a very good balanced team that is all.

Luka had 20 against GSW in game one of a horrible game and then missed 10 threes against them to lose the series against GSW….we got a comparison against equal teams - Boston is a defensive juggernaut and Tatum is more than double what Luka is on defense -

[Floody100]

Needs to hit the weight room this off season. He consistently looks like a child against men when driving to the basket.

[HotRocks34]

Tatum is not on Luka's level and a Ring/FMVP won't change that.

It's similar to Magic in 1987 with 1 MVP, 4 rings and 3 FMVP not being as good as Jordan (no rings, no FMVP and no MVP then). Took awhile to sort that out, but it got sorted out. The hardware is not enough to place one player over another by itself.

Luka being like Harden is laughable (particularly as regards the playoffs). All respect to Harden, he's a first-ballot Hall Of Famer and a 6-time All-NBA 1st Team player, MVP and no doubt a great player. But if you put Luka on a team with Embiid (even hurt), Harris and Maxey they win the title. The Sixers made it to the 2nd round with that setup. That is, one round less far than the Mavs made it this year.

Steph tonight in Game 4 showed why Tatum isn't Luka. Sometimes you need an Alpha to take over and carry the squad, high usage rate and all. I don't know what Steph's usage rate in the game was, but it was high. And without that high usage, the Dubs are down 3-1 in the series and it's basically over.

Tatum, on the other hand, looked like this in the implosion 4th quarter:
3/1/3, 1=5 FG, 1 TO, 2 BK

He did almost nothing.

To be fair to Tatum, he has Alpha in him. But the Celtics needed Alpha Tatum tonight and he didn't deliver. They needed Game 6 Bucks Tatum (46/9/4). In that game, Tatum had a usage rate of 41.8%. Very Luka-esque.

Guess what?

Celtics won by 13 points.

The next-closest person on Boston to Tatum in usage that game was Brown at 24%.

The talent-evaluation people in the NBA understand the situation. I'm sure it's already been mentioned in this thread (I think by myself, probably by others), but there was a repeat survey done not long ago on "best young player to build around":

https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-execs-poll-luka-doncic-top-young-player-zion-williamson-lamelo-ball-evan-mobley/

Luka is 1st for the second year running, and Tatum remains second but his stock has apparently slipped. Of course, the evaluation was done before the current playoff run and, honestly, before Boston turned things around this season.

Still, don't expect much change in the survey next year. Even if Tatum wins a Ring and FMVP.

Tatum can still alter things in the last 3 games of these Finals. Whatever happens is unlikely to change the pecking order with him and Luka, but it obviously could help Tatum's image and legacy nonetheless.

[Jkam31]

This is embarrassing

[DroseReturnChi]

This thread is getting ridiculous. Luka, Tatum and Ja are easily the 3 best young players in NBA. When Tatum is not on the floor, the Celtics are really bad. So for all the talk about how balanced and well constructed their roster is…. It falls apart without Tatum. The Grizzlies won a lot of games without Ja. The Mavs played very well against Utah without Luka. Of the three, Tatum is the one guy who is a huge positive every minute he is on the court because he is a huge lynchpin for the Celtics defense as well as being the focal point of offense. Ja is far and away the best athlete so his ceiling could be the highest. Luka is the most skilled with the best feel. Tatum is the biggest, longest and most balanced 2 way player. I think this argument should be tabled for a decade as all 3 are off to amazing careers.

just because tatum is the best 3 player means ja,tatum even belongs on the same tier with luka. this post is way more ridiculous trying to compare to luka. no young player in the modern era has a resume like luka therefore its not even comparable. that includes 0.1% tatum winning finals and fmvp. tatum has gotten exposed in the biggest stage he is not a clutch performer chokes in critical moments.