NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 3)

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think people actually hate Jokic, I think people hate that for some reason the unwritten rules about MVP don't apply to him. Team record did not matter last year when it has in the past. Guys have had monster years, Jordan included in this and voter fatigue stopped them from getting three in a row. The defensive part of this as well, not to mention the post season stuff, which people say does not matter but we know it does.

I think a lot of people are thinking similar to this but I have to say this notion that the rules are being changed for Jokic just strikes me as something that's clearly absurd and should make everyone reconsider how they think voters are actually thinking.

As I said elsewhere, "voter fatigue" is just a label. In reality most of what's happening is more like player fatigue. When a player has a worse year than the year before, that's when he's in danger of getting underrated as a candidate by voters.

You mention Jordan here, and that's always used as the canonical example of voter fatigue, but Barkley didn't beat Jordan because voters didn't want to give him a 3rd MVP. He beat him because he was the clear cut star of the Dream Team over Jordan, then switched teams and led his new team to the best record in the league as Jordan's Bulls took a major step back from the year before.

You can certainly argue Jordan still should have won, but it's undeniable that based on how MVP voters think Jordan was a considerably weaker candidate than he'd been the year before and he was facing a guy in Barkley who had all the momentum, and trying to summarize what happened as if it was simply about voters enforcing an arbitrary rule about not letting guys 3-peat as MVP.

In the case of Jokic, if you take his last 3 seasons - '20-21, '21-22 & '22-23 - and you reverse them, there's a very good chance that he only wins titles for the first ('22-23) season, but forward what we're getting is a guy who has gotten better each year, and in such circumstances voters tend to feel silly NOT voting for a guy - as they should.

None of this is intended to elevate MVP voters as the most knowledgeable, objective basketball analysts out there - if they were then my thought experiment of reversing Jokic's years wouldn't make sense - only to say that there are clear trends to help you predict how voters will behave going forward and if you have a good grasp of them, then literally nothing about Jokic's '22-23 candidacy is surprising other than the fact that he's actually playing as well as he did.

[bearadonisdna]

Bigs dominate analytics and they free gifted mvps for it.
Greg Monroe has a career 20 PER and positive net rating but couldn’t play in the league.

You Jokic this year mvp and no one would blink an eye. Last year a lot of people blinked an eye.
6th seed ain’t valued nothing , most valued thing in nba is contention and voters screwedthe pooch last year .

[Cubbies2120]

Bigs dominate analytics and they free gifted mvps for it.
Greg Monroe has a career 20 PER and positive net rating but couldn’t play in the league.

You Jokic this year mvp and no one would blink an eye. Last year a lot of people blinked an eye.
6th seed ain’t valued nothing , most valued thing in nba is contention and voters screwedthe pooch last year .

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

[Cubbies2120]

Not just Giannis. Luka, Embiid if healthy and maybe Durant could lead a team on a better record than the Wolves and a bunch of teams that seek to lose on purpose or have no other choice because most of their starters are injured for the whole season.

The same Giannis that missed 15 games last year would have led that team to the playoffs?

Oh, I'm sorry we're using this hypothetical Giannis that doesn't load manage/suffer from injuries seemingly every year...

If the Nuggets had the same win % without Giannis in your scenario that they did without Jokic, they miss the playoffs entirely.

But nice hypothetical, I'm sure Giannis plays 82 games if he's in Denver

Would be cool to see how Jokic would play in the playoffs with:
- All NBA defenders around him
- All stars around him
- Not having the luxury to miss a dozen games because his ... hurts or he's feeling sore

[ReddoverKobe]

Bigs dominate analytics and they free gifted mvps for it.
Greg Monroe has a career 20 PER and positive net rating but couldn’t play in the league.

You Jokic this year mvp and no one would blink an eye. Last year a lot of people blinked an eye.
6th seed ain’t valued nothing , most valued thing in nba is contention and voters screwedthe pooch last year .

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Giannis averages more points, rebounds and is on another planet when it comes to defense, and has played 5 less games. It's getting insane at this point.

[HotRocks34]

I don't think people actually hate Jokic, I think people hate that for some reason the unwritten rules about MVP don't apply to him. Team record did not matter last year when it has in the past. Guys have had monster years, Jordan included in this and voter fatigue stopped them from getting three in a row. The defensive part of this as well, not to mention the post season stuff, which people say does not matter but we know it does.

No one changed the criteria.

The only thing I can think of that has changed -- and it's for the best -- is that "individual wins" may matter now as much as "team wins" does. And that's good. So, for example, if the Sixers win a bunch of games while Embiid is out then Embiid should not be credited with those wins if he didn't play.

When Jokic correctly won the 2021 award, I made a chart about the magnitude of what he accomplished. I'll repost it here and it can be seen in its original version here:

viewtopic.php?p=91056251#p91056251

I'll quote that post now.

Here's a way to understand the magnitude of what Jokic accomplished this year. In the history of the sport going back to at least 1974 (season when Box Plus Minus is first calculated, looking back), there are only five seasons (before Jokic this year) that attained the following metrics:

31 PER
.300 WS48
11 BPM

Here are those seasons, in chronological order, along with how the player fared in the MVP voting.


1988 Jordan.................31.7 PER..........308 WS48............12.96 BPM............................Won MVP
1991 Jordan.................31.6 PER..........321 WS48............12.01 BPM............................Won MVP
2009 LeBron.................31.7 PER..........318 WS48............13.24 BPM............................Won MVP
2013 LeBron.................31.6 PER..........322 WS48............11.71 BPM............................Won MVP
2016 Curry...................31.5 PER..........318 WS48............11.94 BPM............................Won MVP
2021 Jokic...................31.3 PER..........301 WS48............11.68 BPM............................Will win MVP


Embiid (30.3 PER; .266 WS48; 7.2 BPM) and Curry (26.3 PER; .201 WS48; 8.1 BPM) had excellent years, especially Embiid, but not at the level of Jokic. And when you throw in the 20+ missed games for Embiid to Jokic's zero missed games, there was no chance anyone but Jokic was going to win the award.

Going by historical context, there was no way that the voters could choose anyone but Jokic in 2021. If they did, they would then be "changing criteria" and going against historical precedent.

Additionally, Jokic missed 0 games that year. Giannis missed 11 and Embiid 21. Embiid was on track to win the award and then he got hurt late in the year and his candidacy collapsed. Jokic had more individual wins (47) than either Embiid (39) or Giannis (40). Not giving Jokic the award would have been a crime. But the voters got it right.

Then we move on to 2022. The thought was that Jokic would need an even better year to win MVP again. And he had it. He recorded the best PER in NBA history, the best BPM in NBA history, and the best RAPTOR in NBA history while also collecting a .295 WS48 stat to again lead the league. All while Murray missed the entire season and Porter played 9 games in the regular season. Jokic played in 46 individual wins, while Embiid and Giannis each played in 45 individual wins. Another no-brainer MVP award for Jokic.

And so here we are in 2023. People wanted to see Jokic at the top of the standings and there he is. He's averaging a triple double, crushing advanced stats and playing in, and winning, more games than his MVP competitors (except for Tatum, who seems to be fading as a candidate).

These choices are easy for the MVP voters.

The Bucks are on a strong run. Let's see if Giannis can narrow the gap as we go down the stretch. And, of course, injuries can always change things.

Embiid should destroy the Mavs tonight. So that should help his case.

[Cubbies2120]

Bigs dominate analytics and they free gifted mvps for it.
Greg Monroe has a career 20 PER and positive net rating but couldn’t play in the league.

You Jokic this year mvp and no one would blink an eye. Last year a lot of people blinked an eye.
6th seed ain’t valued nothing , most valued thing in nba is contention and voters screwedthe pooch last year .

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Giannis averages more points, rebounds and is on another planet when it comes to defense, and has played 5 less games. It's getting insane at this point.

If he's on another planet when it comes to defense, Jokic is on another planet when it comes to offense and creating it for the TEAM (not just himself).

I'm talking about last season, in case you didn't see the post I was directly responding to, where Giannis missed almost double the games Jokic did (and half of Jokic's games missed were Covid, where he was fine to play but...we're still afraid of a virus).

2021: Jokic missed 0 games. ZERO. | Giannis missed 11
2022: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 15
2023: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 13

Also, let this fact sink in:
Giannis is closer to Iverson's shooting % than Jokic's true shooting %...THAT IS HOW BIG THE GULF BETWEEN THEM IS Giannis averages more points because he shoots 1.5x as many times as Jokic does per game.

Jokic battles for rebounds (48% contested) whereas Giannis does not (33% contested). Again, to put this in perspective...remember when people called Westbrook a stat padder cause his team was letting him get rebounds? Giannis is closer to Westbrook's contested rebound % than he is to Jokic.

[bearadonisdna]

Bigs dominate analytics and they free gifted mvps for it.
Greg Monroe has a career 20 PER and positive net rating but couldn’t play in the league.

You Jokic this year mvp and no one would blink an eye. Last year a lot of people blinked an eye.
6th seed ain’t valued nothing , most valued thing in nba is contention and voters screwedthe pooch last year .

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Is being a projected 1st round out valuable ? You are NOT projected to be on the court hence a decline in value .

Most these mvps lately seem like PER farming but st least these other guys had competitive teams to back up the hype.
It’s the nba guys can put up a good show individually it’s the competiveness of the whole which scales the volume and last years nuggets were only a 6th seed 1st round fodder .

Usually the playoffs aren’t typically accounted for but there is a Reason why lower seeded teams don’t get mvp . Because it’s the biggest straw man .

[ReddoverKobe]

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Giannis averages more points, rebounds and is on another planet when it comes to defense, and has played 5 less games. It's getting insane at this point.

If he's on another planet when it comes to defense, Jokic is on another planet when it comes to offense and creating it for the TEAM (not just himself).

I'm talking about last season, in case you didn't see the post I was directly responding to, where Giannis missed almost double the games Jokic did (and half of Jokic's games missed were Covid, where he was fine to play but...we're still afraid of a virus).

2021: Jokic missed 0 games. ZERO. | Giannis missed 11
2022: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 15
2023: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 13

Also, let this fact sink in:
Giannis is closer to Iverson's shooting % than Jokic's true shooting %...THAT IS HOW BIG THE GULF BETWEEN THEM IS Giannis averages more points because he shoots 1.5x as many times as Jokic does per game.

Jokic battles for rebounds (48% contested) whereas Giannis does not (33% contested). Again, to put this in perspective...remember when people called Westbrook a stat padder cause his team was letting him get rebounds? Giannis is closer to Westbrook's contested rebound % than he is to Jokic.

You don't watch games I take it. Jokic stans are embarrassing at this point. Whats next the vorply/ worp pei over under stat?

[Cubbies2120]

Giannis averages more points, rebounds and is on another planet when it comes to defense, and has played 5 less games. It's getting insane at this point.

If he's on another planet when it comes to defense, Jokic is on another planet when it comes to offense and creating it for the TEAM (not just himself).

I'm talking about last season, in case you didn't see the post I was directly responding to, where Giannis missed almost double the games Jokic did (and half of Jokic's games missed were Covid, where he was fine to play but...we're still afraid of a virus).

2021: Jokic missed 0 games. ZERO. | Giannis missed 11
2022: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 15
2023: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 13

Also, let this fact sink in:
Giannis is closer to Iverson's shooting % than Jokic's true shooting %...THAT IS HOW BIG THE GULF BETWEEN THEM IS Giannis averages more points because he shoots 1.5x as many times as Jokic does per game.

Jokic battles for rebounds (48% contested) whereas Giannis does not (33% contested). Again, to put this in perspective...remember when people called Westbrook a stat padder cause his team was letting him get rebounds? Giannis is closer to Westbrook's contested rebound % than he is to Jokic.

You don't watch games I take it. Jokic stans are embarrassing at this point

When you can't rebut the point, it's easy to attack the poster.

That's how you know you lost the argument

Posting objective stats = "you dont watch games" - ok chief

[ReddoverKobe]

If he's on another planet when it comes to defense, Jokic is on another planet when it comes to offense and creating it for the TEAM (not just himself).

I'm talking about last season, in case you didn't see the post I was directly responding to, where Giannis missed almost double the games Jokic did (and half of Jokic's games missed were Covid, where he was fine to play but...we're still afraid of a virus).

2021: Jokic missed 0 games. ZERO. | Giannis missed 11
2022: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 15
2023: Jokic missed 8 games | Giannis missed 13

Also, let this fact sink in:
Giannis is closer to Iverson's shooting % than Jokic's true shooting %...THAT IS HOW BIG THE GULF BETWEEN THEM IS Giannis averages more points because he shoots 1.5x as many times as Jokic does per game.

Jokic battles for rebounds (48% contested) whereas Giannis does not (33% contested). Again, to put this in perspective...remember when people called Westbrook a stat padder cause his team was letting him get rebounds? Giannis is closer to Westbrook's contested rebound % than he is to Jokic.

You don't watch games I take it. Jokic stans are embarrassing at this point

When you can't rebut the point, it's easy to attack the poster.

That's how you know you lost the argument

Kind of like how Jokic loses games that matter I guess. He gets he rest while the playoffs are going on

[Cubbies2120]

Bigs dominate analytics and they free gifted mvps for it.
Greg Monroe has a career 20 PER and positive net rating but couldn’t play in the league.

You Jokic this year mvp and no one would blink an eye. Last year a lot of people blinked an eye.
6th seed ain’t valued nothing , most valued thing in nba is contention and voters screwedthe pooch last year .

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Is being a projected 1st round out valuable ? You are NOT projected to be on the court hence a decline in value .

Most these mvps lately seem like PER farming but st least these other guys had competitive teams to back up the hype.
It’s the nba guys can put up a good show individually it’s the competiveness of the whole which scales the volume and last years nuggets were only a 6th seed 1st round fodder .

Usually the playoffs aren’t typically accounted for but there is a Reason why lower seeded teams don’t get mvp . Because it’s the biggest straw man .

Ahhh! I see, here's where you're missing something...the MVP is given for regular season performances, not for what happens in the playoffs - glad to be able to clarify for you!

They were 1st round fodder running into the NBA champions - unlike other MVP candidates who lost to teams that...didn't even make the Finals...

Very specific question for you - I know you will avoid it, but I'll pose it anyways: Which MVP candidate in NBA history could you take the #2/3 options off their team, with no replacement, and they beat the NBA champs of that year in a 7 game series?

[Cubbies2120]

You don't watch games I take it. Jokic stans are embarrassing at this point

When you can't rebut the point, it's easy to attack the poster.

That's how you know you lost the argument

Kind of like how Jokic loses games that matter I guess. He gets he rest while the playoffs are going on

After watching Bucks fans bitch in this thread about "Khris/Jrue weren't healthy!" when Khris alone has played double the games MPJ/Murray played all game last year, I know you're aware of how much teammates matter

I just want you on record - if Khris/Jrue are injured in the playoffs, Giannis has zero excuses not to win it all right? Just to confirm. I wouldn't want you to be a hypocrite

[MarcusBrody]

I don't think people actually hate Jokic, I think people hate that for some reason the unwritten rules about MVP don't apply to him. Team record did not matter last year when it has in the past. Guys have had monster years, Jordan included in this and voter fatigue stopped them from getting three in a row. The defensive part of this as well, not to mention the post season stuff, which people say does not matter but we know it does.

Who would you have voted for last year?

You're missing the point. Its not one thing, its everything added up. So in the past record mattered, until it didn't. People failing the postseason like Giannis mattered when he was going for his 3rd MVP, until it just didn't for Jokic. Dirk got killed for after losing the playoffs and he was never getting another vote but that does not matter for Jokic. It just odd.

Wins: I'm saying that all the things you mention are factors/talked about. Last year, none of the other leading candidates (Embiid, Giannis) had many more than 51 wins and both of them missed at least 6 more games than Jokic (I think Jokic played in more wins than either, though I'd have to check that).

Defense: The Nuggets - with their poo poo platter of defensive guards - were only one spot lower than the Bucks defensively with Jrue (and 3 below the 76ers, with the three coming in at 12, 14, 15). Very little hard data suggests that Jokic is a bad defender, despite what people claim.

Playoff success: Overall, Jokic has been very good in the playoffs. The three series they lost (LA, Phoenix, GSW) were against two eventual champions and a finalist and Denver was substantial underdogs going into all of them and missing their 2nd (or 2nd and 3rd) best players in the seasons where Jokic won MVP (the Warriors were -430 favorites last year). Giannis won a title 2 years ago. Embiid never has. They both lost in the second round last year to teams that were less good than the team that beat the Nuggets.

So while I do think those things matter, there isn't big enough gaps to overtake the advantages Jokic has other places.

So basically you're left with the idea that players need to be more than be the best player in a year to win multiple MVPs, but other people in the forum have pretty persuasively argued that there are less voter fatigue MVPs than people might think. Which ones do you think Jordan should have won that he didn't? 1993 seems like the best option for potential "voter fatigue" as he'd won two in a row previously had probably the best stats, but Barkley's Suns won 62 games, vs. the the Bulls' 57. Jordan actually was also pretty poorly represented in Player of the Week/Month for that year. He won one PotW the second week of the season and the PotM November. Barkley was better represented (as was Hakeem and even Ewing). Obviously those awards are largely narrative, but it shows that Jorden wasn't dominating the narrative that year. Same with 1997. In each of his MVP years, he had stronger showings winning multiple PotW or PotM. In 1993, Jordan wasn't even second in the MVP voting, he was 3rd behind Hakeem. Should he have won in 1997? Probably, but you would have expected all the narrative things you mention to be in his favor. In most semi-advanced statistical ways, Jordan was better in 1997 and Malone was better in 1998. So one maybe fatigue award 25 years ago? It doesn't seem like it's that big a deal.

[ReddoverKobe]

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Is being a projected 1st round out valuable ? You are NOT projected to be on the court hence a decline in value .

Most these mvps lately seem like PER farming but st least these other guys had competitive teams to back up the hype.
It’s the nba guys can put up a good show individually it’s the competiveness of the whole which scales the volume and last years nuggets were only a 6th seed 1st round fodder .

Usually the playoffs aren’t typically accounted for but there is a Reason why lower seeded teams don’t get mvp . Because it’s the biggest straw man .

Ahhh! I see, here's where you're missing something...the MVP is given for regular season performances, not for what happens in the playoffs - glad to be able to clarify for you!

They were 1st round fodder running into the NBA champions - unlike other MVP candidates who lost to teams that...didn't even make the Finals...

Very specific question for you - I know you will avoid it, but I'll pose it anyways: Which MVP candidate in NBA history could you take the #2/3 options off their team, with no replacement, and they beat the NBA champs of that year in a 7 game series?

What was his vorp though?

[dygaction]

You don't watch games I take it. Jokic stans are embarrassing at this point

When you can't rebut the point, it's easy to attack the poster.

That's how you know you lost the argument

Kind of like how Jokic loses games that matter I guess. He gets he rest while the playoffs are going on

That's the reason Giannis got one Finals MVP a few years back. While we are talking about regular seasons, why not take the facts that Jokic is playing while Giannis injured/resting and let Jokic gets his deserved MVP?

[ReddoverKobe]

Who would you have voted for last year?

You're missing the point. Its not one thing, its everything added up. So in the past record mattered, until it didn't. People failing the postseason like Giannis mattered when he was going for his 3rd MVP, until it just didn't for Jokic. Dirk got killed for after losing the playoffs and he was never getting another vote but that does not matter for Jokic. It just odd.

Wins: I'm saying that all the things you mention are factors/talked about. Last year, none of the other leading candidates (Embiid, Giannis) had many more than 51 wins and both of them missed at least 6 more games than Jokic (I think Jokic played in more wins than either, though I'd have to check that).

Defense: The Nuggets - with their poo poo platter of defensive guards - were only one spot lower than the Bucks defensively with Jrue (and 3 below the 76ers, with the three coming in at 12, 14, 15). Very little hard data suggests that Jokic is a bad defender, despite what people claim.

Playoff success: Overall, Jokic has been very good in the playoffs. The three series they lost (LA, Phoenix, GSW) were against two eventual champions and a finalist and Denver was substantial underdogs going into all of them and missing their 2nd (or 2nd and 3rd) best players in the seasons where Jokic won MVP (the Warriors were -430 favorites last year). Giannis won a title 2 years ago. Embiid never has. They both lost in the second round last year to teams that were less good than the team that beat the Nuggets.

So while I do think those things matter, there isn't big enough gaps to overtake the advantages Jokic has other places.

So basically you're left with the idea that players need to be more than be the best player in a year to win multiple MVPs, but other people in the forum have pretty persuasively argued that there are less voter fatigue MVPs than people might think. Which ones do you think Jordan should have won that he didn't? 1993 seems like the best option for potential "voter fatigue" as he'd won two in a row previously had probably the best stats, but Barkley's Suns won 62 games, vs. the the Bulls' 57. Jordan actually was also pretty poorly represented in Player of the Week/Month for that year. He won one PotW the second week of the season and the PotM November. Barkley was better represented (as was Hakeem and even Ewing). Obviously those awards are largely narrative, but it shows that Jorden wasn't dominating the narrative that year. Same with 1997. In each of his MVP years, he had stronger showings winning multiple PotW or PotM. In 1993, Jordan wasn't even second in the MVP voting, he was 3rd behind Hakeem. Should he have won in 1997? Probably, but you would have expected all the narrative things you mention to be in his favor. In most semi-advanced statistical ways, Jordan was better in 1997 and Malone was better in 1998. So one maybe fatigue award 25 years ago? It doesn't seem like it's that big a deal.

Been there for all of it. If you paid any attention to the NBA you have would know that things that should not matter when it comes to MVP have in the past, and for whatever reason they dont for Jokic. Like Hakeem basically made sure Robinson was never going to get an MVP again in that playoff series. There is no stat I can link to back that up but if you followed basketball at all you know its true. And we have seen things like team record matter before, Hell people were pushing team record this year when the nuggets were ahead of the bucks, and now suddenly its not important. I find the whole thing really strange that this one guy has different standards then many of the great players of the past and present when it comes to MVP

[ReddoverKobe]

When you can't rebut the point, it's easy to attack the poster.

That's how you know you lost the argument

Kind of like how Jokic loses games that matter I guess. He gets he rest while the playoffs are going on

That's the reason Giannis got one Finals MVP a few years back. While we are talking about regular seasons, why not take the facts that Jokic is playing while Giannis injured/resting and let Jokic gets his deserved MVP?

5 games!

[bearadonisdna]

Y'all hung up on seeding, but seeding is a product also of how your team does WITHOUT you.

The facts:
Jokic played in more wins than the runner ups (Giannis/Embiid).

If you want to give Giannis/Embiid credit for things that happened when they're in street clothes cause they're not as durable as Jokic, that's your choice. Thankfully, the voters realize that to be VALUABLE, you typically have to be on the court.

Is being a projected 1st round out valuable ? You are NOT projected to be on the court hence a decline in value .

Most these mvps lately seem like PER farming but st least these other guys had competitive teams to back up the hype.
It’s the nba guys can put up a good show individually it’s the competiveness of the whole which scales the volume and last years nuggets were only a 6th seed 1st round fodder .

Usually the playoffs aren’t typically accounted for but there is a Reason why lower seeded teams don’t get mvp . Because it’s the biggest straw man .

Ahhh! I see, here's where you're missing something...the MVP is given for regular season performances, not for what happens in the playoffs - glad to be able to clarify for you!

They were 1st round fodder running into the NBA champions - unlike other MVP candidates who lost to teams that...didn't even make the Finals...

Very specific question for you - I know you will avoid it, but I'll pose it anyways: Which MVP candidate in NBA history could you take the #2/3 options off their team, with no replacement, and they beat the NBA champs of that year in a 7 game series?

Let’s see maybe Joel freakin embiid who was without Ben Simmons the entire year .
Jokic had 5 double digit scorers to help all season.
Embiid had only 2 until the harden trade.

Guess what you wouldn’t have to face the eventual champs in round 1 if the team performed better.

Look man we’ve been here before , this is maddening to me but what can you do it’s a vote. It’s freakin democracy . Should their be a makeup call this season ? Yes.
If Boston was better I’d give it to Tatum no blink .
3x straight mvp for a guy unlikely to ever make the finals as the best player on his team ?

This guy Jokic might be the most supplemental superstar I ever seen . Even Murray had to play like DM possessed to get to WCF.

[Cubbies2120]

Let’s see maybe Joel freakin embiid who was without Ben Simmons the entire year .
Jokic had 5 double digit scorers to help all season.

Wait, the same Simmons who Sixers fans trashed all year? The 6/6/6 Simmons?

Let's check out what those 5 double digit scorers are up to now? Or how they played w/o Jokic on the court last season?

Any player in the NBA becomes a double digit scorer if they play with Jokic enough. That is part of what makes him the MVP...he's not just great himself, he makes G-league caliber players look like NBA players, and when those guys go to other teams they end up buried...ever wonder why that is?