2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

[Screwston]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

[bondom34]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

Hmmm...not so sure there, he's leading Sportscenter most nights with Golden State. He's the clear MVP so far.

[MisterHibachi]

LeBron's gonna win MVP

Right now, how would it really be warranted? Because he's carrying a misfits to a better record? The Rockets are currently 28-9 (.757). The Cavs are 26-8 (.765) in a weaker conference. Both teams records are nearly the same, but its not even debatable on which team has more talent around their star? Like MrPerfect 1 said, Its hard to overcome the preset MVP mental ranking. LBJ is the reigning nba champ with 4 MVP's so a lot of people already have mindset that he should win it. Its the same thing with Westbrook, the media wanted/wants him to win it.

You realize the Cavs have played the 9th toughest schedule, Houston the 21st? So I don't know understand the 'weaker conference' comment. Despite playing in what you call the weaker conference, the Cavs have played a harder schedule.

[Triples333]

LeBron's gonna win MVP

Right now, how would it really be warranted? Because he's carrying a misfits to a better record? The Rockets are currently 28-9 (.757). The Cavs are 26-8 (.765) in a weaker conference. Both teams records are nearly the same, but its not even debatable on which team has more talent around their star? Like MrPerfect 1 said, Its hard to overcome the preset MVP mental ranking. LBJ is the reigning nba champ with 4 MVP's so a lot of people already have mindset that he should win it. Its the same thing with Westbrook, the media wanted/wants him to win it.

You realize the Cavs have played the 9th toughest schedule, Houston the 21st? So I don't know understand the 'weaker conference' comment. Despite playing in what you call the weaker conference, the Cavs have played a harder schedule.

Depends on what site you use and what system they're using for SOS. The more you see the fluctuations, the more you realize SOS is just a useless argument. Especially in the NBA where there are a lot of games, inter-conference games are abundant, and at the end of the year the gap between "toughest" and "easiest" is just generally, "the top team has the easiest schedule because they did not play themselves, ditto bottom team with the toughest schedule".

ESPN has the Cavs at #3 with a .515 SOS to Houston's #11 at .505 SOS. With Houston on a road b2b against the Magic with the Cavs against the Nets tonight, I'd expect the SOS to be about even by nights end (unless road b2b's are not factored in, in which case it's an even more meaningless stat).

Prediction Machine has the Rockets as the 15th toughest schedule, Cavs 21st.http://www.predictionmachine.com/Strength-of-Schedule-Rankings-NBA-Teams So who the hell knows.

Then there's other factors like travel distance where Cleveland flies the least every season, and teams like Golden State and even Houston end up traveling ~25-35% more distance each season. http://nbasavant.com/apps/map.php I'm sure that matters, and I'm sure SOS doesn't take it into account.

Bottom line, SOS is just not worth the time.

[MisterHibachi]

Right now, how would it really be warranted? Because he's carrying a misfits to a better record? The Rockets are currently 28-9 (.757). The Cavs are 26-8 (.765) in a weaker conference. Both teams records are nearly the same, but its not even debatable on which team has more talent around their star? Like MrPerfect 1 said, Its hard to overcome the preset MVP mental ranking. LBJ is the reigning nba champ with 4 MVP's so a lot of people already have mindset that he should win it. Its the same thing with Westbrook, the media wanted/wants him to win it.

You realize the Cavs have played the 9th toughest schedule, Houston the 21st? So I don't know understand the 'weaker conference' comment. Despite playing in what you call the weaker conference, the Cavs have played a harder schedule.

Depends on what site you use and what system they're using for SOS. The more you see the fluctuations, the more you realize SOS is just a useless argument. Especially in the NBA where there are a lot of games, inter-conference games are abundant, and at the end of the year the gap between "toughest" and "easiest" is just generally, "the top team has the easiest schedule because they did not play themselves, ditto bottom team with the toughest schedule".

ESPN has the Cavs at #3 with a .515 SOS to Houston's #11 at .505 SOS. With Houston on a road b2b against the Magic with the Cavs against the Nets tonight, I'd expect the SOS to be about even by nights end (unless road b2b's are not factored in, in which case it's an even more meaningless stat).

Prediction Machine has the Rockets as the 15th toughest schedule, Cavs 21st.http://www.predictionmachine.com/Strength-of-Schedule-Rankings-NBA-Teams So who the hell knows.

Then there's other factors like travel distance where Cleveland flies the least every season, and teams like Golden State and even Houston end up traveling ~25-35% more distance each season. http://nbasavant.com/apps/map.php I'm sure that matters, and I'm sure SOS doesn't take it into account.

Bottom line, SOS is just not worth the time.

My point still stands. Houston has not had a harder schedule than the Cavs, so the 'weaker conference' comment was unnecessary.

[Triples333]

You realize the Cavs have played the 9th toughest schedule, Houston the 21st? So I don't know understand the 'weaker conference' comment. Despite playing in what you call the weaker conference, the Cavs have played a harder schedule.

Depends on what site you use and what system they're using for SOS. The more you see the fluctuations, the more you realize SOS is just a useless argument. Especially in the NBA where there are a lot of games, inter-conference games are abundant, and at the end of the year the gap between "toughest" and "easiest" is just generally, "the top team has the easiest schedule because they did not play themselves, ditto bottom team with the toughest schedule".

ESPN has the Cavs at #3 with a .515 SOS to Houston's #11 at .505 SOS. With Houston on a road b2b against the Magic with the Cavs against the Nets tonight, I'd expect the SOS to be about even by nights end (unless road b2b's are not factored in, in which case it's an even more meaningless stat).

Prediction Machine has the Rockets as the 15th toughest schedule, Cavs 21st.http://www.predictionmachine.com/Strength-of-Schedule-Rankings-NBA-Teams So who the hell knows.

Then there's other factors like travel distance where Cleveland flies the least every season, and teams like Golden State and even Houston end up traveling ~25-35% more distance each season. http://nbasavant.com/apps/map.php I'm sure that matters, and I'm sure SOS doesn't take it into account.

Bottom line, SOS is just not worth the time.

My point still stands. Houston has not had a harder schedule than the Cavs, so the 'weaker conference' comment was unnecessary.

Well I just showed you a link to a site that says they have had the harder schedule than the Cavs, but agreed on the latter. Although the Rockets certainly have a lot more to worry about in the West than the Cavs in the East, that's more of a playoff thing than SOS.

SOS is just a useless side-bar in the debate that I've never heard an actual voter bring up.

[scrabbarista]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

Just listening to the realgm MVP discussion released today. They pick Westbrook and then make an argument that sounds almost the opposite of the one the media used to argue in favor of Curry in '15.

The MVP award is so silly when you look at the historical results.

The way to choose your MVP is to set your (concrete, numerical) criteria before the season and vote for the guy who matches the criteria. Narrative-driven retrospective justification is a joke.

[scrabbarista]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

Hmmm...not so sure there, he's leading Sportscenter most nights with Golden State. He's the clear MVP so far.

Only since the 53-17-16 game. Before that it was all Westbrook.

[K_chile22]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

Just listening to the realgm MVP discussion released today. They pick Westbrook and then make an argument that sounds almost the opposite of the one the media used to argue in favor of Curry in '15.

The MVP award is so silly when you look at the historical results.

The way to choose your MVP is to set your (concrete, numerical) criteria before the season and vote for the guy who matches the criteria. Narrative-driven retrospective justification is a joke.

That and the Dunc'd on Twitter show did the same thing after those same guys dismissed that argument two years ago. It's really disappointing to hear. Especially since the difference between that Warriors and Rockets team was smaller than this Thunder and Rockets, assuming they hold their pace

[bondom34]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

Hmmm...not so sure there, he's leading Sportscenter most nights with Golden State. He's the clear MVP so far.

Only since the 53-17-16 game. Before that it was all Westbrook.

And yet the media thinks its Harden's award.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2017/01/06/memo-to-russell-westbrook-it-will-take-more-than-a-historical-season-to-win-nba-mvp/?utm_term=.3aa7a68af38a

It may have just been one regular season game in early January — though a wildly entertaining one — but it also was a symbolic one in terms of looking at the MVP race. Despite all of Westbrook’s exploits, Harden is the leader for the award — something that was reinforced by the Post’s utterly unscientific straw poll of a combination of 90 coaches, scouts, executives and media members from across the NBA universe the past two days.

While Harden emerged well ahead in the poll, virtually everyone who submitted a vote said they had a tough time deciding between two or more of the four leading candidates: Harden, Westbrook, Durant and LeBron James. Harden finished the voting with 61 out of 90 votes, followed by Westbrook (18), James (six) and Durant (five).

Despite the margin of victory, though, there’s still plenty of time left in the season for different developments on the court. But, as of now, in a league where stars are putting up video game numbers on a nightly basis, averaging a triple-double alone won’t be enough for Westbrook to walk away with the award.

[Clyde Frazier]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi

Thunder currently on pace for 46-47 wins. Just a gut feeling, but say the thunder win 48 games, westbrook finishes the year at like 29/10/10 — i’d be pretty surprised if he doesn’t win MVP, even with history not being on his side wins-wise. Obviously comes down to where the rockets finish, how lebron’s #s and games played look by the end of the year, etc.

[Dadouv47]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/mvp.cgi

Thunder currently on pace for 46-47 wins. Just a gut feeling, but say the thunder win 48 games, westbrook finishes the year at like 29/10/10 — i’d be pretty surprised if he doesn’t win MVP, even with history not being on his side wins-wise. Obviously comes down to where the rockets finish, how lebron’s #s and games played look by the end of the year, etc.

Problem is that our schedule for january/february is very very hard. Don't think we will win 47 games

Even if i think that Westbrook is way better than Harden, right now harden should be the MVP (still a long way to go)

[Vator]

I have to constantly guard checking my fan bias at the door when it comes to this topic. I will admit that there have been times during the season where I honestly felt like Westbrook was leading the MVP race. Even as recently as a week ago. This is a very dynamic situation and although I think Harden has the edge right now, there are a lot of games left to be played and Westbrook can certainly make up ground and once again surpass Harden.

The thing is, as impressive as 49 points is, I don't think he made up ground in the race with his performance last night because of the way he played. Unfortunately for him, had they won, I think that people would have a completely different take on it this morning which when you really think about it, is a little crazy. I don't know, there were a lot of people who bashed him for taking 44 shots in that game earlier this year, but others were like he did what he had to in order to win. As impressed as I was with his 3 point shooting while I watched the game, it didn't escape my attention that he was getting up a ton of shots again. By the end, he'd taken 34 shots. I'm sorry, but that is a lot of shots for a point guard. I don't care how little help you say he has, 34 shots is a lot for a point guard to take. Kanter, Oladipo, and Adams all make a lot of money too and are capable of getting buckets. It's almost like he came into the game with the mindset that it was a big game and he was going to win it all by himself if he had to and he almost succeeded with that approach, but since they ended up losing, it just looks like he tried to do too much again. On the flipside, I was proud of Harden for not making it a one on one battle. He had to know people were going to put their point totals side by side and yet he still only took 16 shots and was committed to running the offense and making the right play. I think that took a lot of guts and maturity considering this was billed as an MVP matchup.

That being said, I think Westbrook is one of the most astonishingly athletic players I've ever seen. He is fun to watch and he competes. The competitor in him won't allow him to concede this race already. He'll have more to say on it for sure.

[Impuniti]

Just saying in general, media switches their narrative against Harden however it suits 'em.

Just listening to the realgm MVP discussion released today. They pick Westbrook and then make an argument that sounds almost the opposite of the one the media used to argue in favor of Curry in '15.

The MVP award is so silly when you look at the historical results.

The way to choose your MVP is to set your (concrete, numerical) criteria before the season and vote for the guy who matches the criteria. Narrative-driven retrospective justification is a joke.

People who want a guy whose leading his team to 7th in the conference to be MVP shouldn't be taken all that seriously anyways.

[red96]

We're looking at this from 2 different viewpoints. Your talking east seedings while Im looking at league rankings/seedings. For me its about context. Imo, if Malone's team actually finished 13th in the league he wouldn't have got MVP. Seeds 4-12 in the east are only separated by 4.5 games and none of them are in the nba's top 10. The difference between all those teams is small. In the west its an 11 game difference. 7 of the leagues top 10 are in the west with the west's 3rd seed only .015 behing the east's 1st seed. The seeds Milwaukee are fighting for are for mediocre teams. No MVP has ever came from a mediocre team, at least none that im aware of. Its fun to get wrapped up into big numbers, but you also have to step back and look at the big picture.

A) I'm trying to explain that the Bucks are in fact outperforming the Thunder by both net differential and SRS (generally seen as more indicative of who the better team is than W/L record). And I think that, coupled with the fact that the Bucks are outperforming expectations while OKC is not, should matter (Bucks are 8th in SRS to OKC's 11).
B) We disagree on what is more important between interconference and league wide standings. If they get HCA in their conference but were 9th best in the NBA overall, that will be viewed as a bigger accomplishment for an MVP debate than if he was the 5 seed but the 8th best team in the league.
C) Harden and Westbrook are leading 3 and 6 seeds, respectively. A leader of a 3 seed hasn't won in ages and a 6 seed much farther back, yet Westbrook is the co-MVP to most right now. If he's a front-runner ... again ... then clearly that opens the debate up to other players from teams in that tier.

Bear in mind that OKC's gauntlet only gets tougher over the month, and it's highly possible that the Bucks have both the better SRS and record than them going into All Star weekend. If/when that is the case, would you consider him a top candidate alongside Harden/Westbrook, or would you simply remove Westbrook all together?

A)I agree that net differental and SRS are good statistical tool to help determine with team are actually better. But when teams are in different conferences, not even halfway through the season, and with a 2 game difference between them(the difference between the 4th and 8th seeds in the east), its not definate stat to rate all nba teams.
B)Well thats an entirely different scenario. A comparison between the 8th and 9th best teams in the league is reasonable, but 13th(Bucks are currently) isnt. If the Bucks can get in that range, the Freak could have a real case over Westbrook if their records are close.
C)The Thunder have just fallen to 7th in the west and 10th in the league record wise. If they stay there, Westbrook winning MVP would be unprecedented. Not only would he be the MVP who's won from the lowest seed in his conference ever, but also from the lowest ranked team in the league ever. His numbers are not so astronomicaly superior to his competition to achieve that imo. Westbrooks pre-season favoritism will have wore off by seasons end if they finish that low and he wouldn't be called a front-runner anymore. Either way, Westbrook was picked to be MVP before the season started so Giannis will be playing catch-up all year, even more so than Harden.

[bondom34]

Westbrook isn't even a frontrunner right now. Media poll had Harden in a landslide.

[K_chile22]

Westbrook isn't even a frontrunner right now. Media poll had Harden in a landslide.

What media poll? Link?

[bondom34]

Westbrook isn't even a frontrunner right now. Media poll had Harden in a landslide.

What media poll? Link?

I linked it a few posts ago. Quoted it too.

[K_chile22]

Westbrook isn't even a frontrunner right now. Media poll had Harden in a landslide.

What media poll? Link?

I linked it a few posts ago. Quoted it too.

Thanks, missed it, I'm shocked it was that big though

[Rastas]

Prediction for seasons end -
Player A = 27/8/9 with 64 wins - no1 seed
Player B = 28/8/12 with 56 wins - no 3 or 4 seed
Player C = 31/10/10 with 46 wins - no 7 seed

Who wins it - I got A