RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bledredwine]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

Providing your franchise with 6 championships as the head honcho and expanding basketball domestically and worldwide is pretty insane value, not to mention influencing all of Wade, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, Rose etc as their basketball hero.

[The Explorer]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

It was outlier level good.

And if 41% more minutes amounts to the all time leader in turnovers, soon to be all time leader in missed field goals, and near the top of the list of most finals losses, then those additional minutes don't have as much value as you think.

[Special_Puppy]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

It was outlier level good.

And if 41% more minutes amounts to the all time leader in turnovers, soon to be all time leader in missed field goals, and near the top of the list of most finals losses, then those additional minutes don't have as much value as you think.

What's the evidence that Jordan's peak was an outlier compared to everyone else in NBA history?

[ScrantonBulls]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

It was outlier level good.

And if 41% more minutes amounts to the all time leader in turnovers, soon to be all time leader in missed field goals, and near the top of the list of most finals losses, then those additional minutes don't have as much value as you think.

What's the evidence that Jordan's peak was an outlier compared to everyone else in NBA history?

Rangz!

[bledredwine]

It was outlier level good.

And if 41% more minutes amounts to the all time leader in turnovers, soon to be all time leader in missed field goals, and near the top of the list of most finals losses, then those additional minutes don't have as much value as you think.

What's the evidence that Jordan's peak was an outlier compared to everyone else in NBA history?

Rangz!

agreed!

2 3-peatz Rangz, statz, accoladez, 1st team defenzez, scoring titlez, mvpz, the full shabangz.

[ScrantonBulls]

What's the evidence that Jordan's peak was an outlier compared to everyone else in NBA history?

Rangz!

agreed!

2 3-peatz Rangz, statz, accoladez, 1st team defenzez, scoring titlez, mvpz, the full shabangz.

You forgot your main points of evidence: gut feeling, nostalgia, and what Rasheed Wallace says.

[Special_Puppy]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

Or Peak would have to be far more important than is commonly believed

[SNPA]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

It was outlier level good.

And if 41% more minutes amounts to the all time leader in turnovers, soon to be all time leader in missed field goals, and near the top of the list of most finals losses, then those additional minutes don't have as much value as you think.

What's the evidence that Jordan's peak was an outlier compared to everyone else in NBA history?

It’s satire level dumb, so I’m going to give credit. I’m going with trolling.

[bledredwine]

Rangz!

agreed!

2 3-peatz Rangz, statz, accoladez, 1st team defenzez, scoring titlez, mvpz, the full shabangz.

You forgot your main points of evidence: gut feeling, nostalgia, and what Rasheed Wallace says.

True, perception, gut and pro players matter. Sheed knows far more than you ever will, as an example.

[Djoker]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

Or Peak would have to be far more important than is commonly believed

Peak is far more important.

Longevity is so situational. Lebron entered the NBA three years younger, never lost his father mid-career, never had his GM break up a dynasty he was on, and never felt no need to keep playing because he accomplished all there was to accomplish.

And for the record I don't believe Jordan's peak was an outlier but it was still probably much higher than Lebron's peak. Peak MJ was superior based on box score stats and elevated his team much higher with arguably less talented supporting casts.

[pepe1991]

Longevity changes with advance of medicine, training etc. In 10 years you will probably see somebody who is 43 and playing well because injury prevention, advanced drugs, PEDs will get even more advanced (and it's not like in nba anybody gets tested among stars).

[bledredwine]

Longevity changes with advance of medicine, training etc. In 10 years you will probably see somebody who is 43 and playing well because injury prevention, advanced drugs, PEDs will get even more advanced (and it's not like in nba anybody gets tested among stars).

Exactly.

Look at the best players of their sports lately- Mayweather, Pacquiao, Messi, Djokovic/Federer, Brady

They're all praised by insane longevity.

It's sports medicine/science, no coincidence that all of them played to 40'ish at the highest level.

[McBubbles]

LeBron has played 41% more minutes than MJ so MJ's peak would have to be outlier level good in order to match LeBron in terms of career value

Or Peak would have to be far more important than is commonly believed

Peak is far more important.

Longevity is so situational. Lebron entered the NBA three years younger, never lost his father mid-career, never had his GM break up a dynasty he was on, and never felt no need to keep playing because he accomplished all there was to accomplish.

And for the record I don't believe Jordan's peak was an outlier but it was still probably much higher than Lebron's peak. Peak MJ was superior based on box score stats and elevated his team much higher with arguably less talented supporting casts.

Anyone that brings up how situational or luck based Lebron's longevity is, is being silly. Of all the situational factors that affect one's basketball career, his longevity is pretty far down on the list. Why? Because everyone Lebron is playing with and against has access to the same resources that LeBron does, yet his longevity has trumped theirs regardless. For MULTIPLE years now Lebron has been the only player in his draft class that's even still in the league.

Hell there have been multiple All Stars that were drafted years after him whom are now worse than him despite being younger or who are now also out of the league.

Compare this to how situational the front office, coaching staff and teammates that MJ was given is, and it's not even close. Lebron's basketball ability is less luck based than MJ's team success.

Furthermore, Michael Jordan's competitiveness is vastly overrated. He retired because he "had nothing left to accomplish?" He had less rings than Bill Russell and less points AND MVP's than Kareem. There were several major milestones he had left to accomplish. He retired because he wanted to retire. His dedication to basketball was never as obsessive to the level of a Lebron, or a Kareem, or a Russell. Dude partied before playoff games constantly and LITERALLY GAVE UP ON BASKETBALL THREE TIMES but I'm supposed to believe he's more dedicated to the game than anyone else because he punches his teammates in the face and cheats against grandmas when playing board games lmao, please.

[McBubbles]

Longevity changes with advance of medicine, training etc. In 10 years you will probably see somebody who is 43 and playing well because injury prevention, advanced drugs, PEDs will get even more advanced (and it's not like in nba anybody gets tested among stars).

Exactly.

Look at the best players of their sports lately- Mayweather, Pacquiao, Messi, Djokovic/Federer, Brady

They're all praised by insane longevity.

It's sports medicine/science, no coincidence that all of them played to 40'ish at the highest level.

If Michael Jordan had notable longevity for his era you'd have a point...

But he didn't.

So you don't lol. You're talking about today's athletes as if MJ didn't have worse longevity than Kareem

[Djoker]

Anyone that brings up how situational or luck based Lebron's longevity is, is being silly. Of all the situational factors that affect one's basketball career, his longevity is pretty far down on the list. Why? Because everyone Lebron is playing with and against has access to the same resources that LeBron does, yet his longevity has trumped theirs regardless. For MULTIPLE years now Lebron has been the only player in his draft class that's even still in the league.

Lebron is also the only star in his draft class who came into the NBA out of high school. Wade/Melo/Bosh all went to college. That major situational factor got Lebron a 3-4 year head start over most legends through no merit of his own.

Hell there have been multiple All Stars that were drafted years after him whom are now worse than him despite being younger or who are now also out of the league.

Sure. And? We can give Lebron credit for his durability. He is exceptional at that but so was MJ. He too was extremely durable and that's an aspect of a player's longevity actually related to basketball. There is no basketball reason to believe that MJ couldn't have played longer.

Compare this to how situational the front office, coaching staff and teammates that MJ was given is, and it's not even close. Lebron's basketball ability is less luck based than MJ's team success.

This perception is skewed by the Bulls winning winning winning. His teams weren't extraordinarily talented. 90's players themselves were saying how the Bulls would lose to 80's teams because they had less talent. Pippen plus good role players isn't historically great support by any stretch.

Furthermore, Michael Jordan's competitiveness is vastly overrated. He retired because he "had nothing left to accomplish?" He had less rings than Bill Russell and less points AND MVP's than Kareem. There were several major milestones he had left to accomplish. He retired because he wanted to retire. His dedication to basketball was never as obsessive to the level of a Lebron, or a Kareem, or a Russell. Dude partied before playoff games constantly and LITERALLY GAVE UP ON BASKETBALL THREE TIMES but I'm supposed to believe he's more dedicated to the game than anyone else because he punches his teammates in the face and cheats against grandmas when playing board games lmao, please.

Or you could consider the unique circumstances that caused Jordan's retirements. One's father getting assassinated is a pretty big deal and would make many people to contemplate retirement. The magnitude of that tragedy should not be minimized. Although of course, he didn't retire. He spent a year and a half playing another professional sport. The amount of hard work required for that goes under the radar. If anything, his baseball stint is a testament to his dedication. Is it harder for a basketball GOAT to just keep playing basketball or start playing another completely different sport at age 30? You tell me.

In 1998, the Bulls management behind Krause decided to break up a winning dynasty. How many times in history has that happened? But honestly, at that point, MJ himself has said that he had no desire to return to play for some for some other team. I guess you had to be there but EVERYONE in 1998 thought MJ was the GOAT and that no one would ever come close to surpassing him. That's how cemented his legacy was. Of course since then, peoples' stance has softened and there are other GOAT candidates but the worship that MJ experienced back then is only matched by Ali in the history of North American sports.

[bledredwine]

Longevity changes with advance of medicine, training etc. In 10 years you will probably see somebody who is 43 and playing well because injury prevention, advanced drugs, PEDs will get even more advanced (and it's not like in nba anybody gets tested among stars).

Exactly.

Look at the best players of their sports lately- Mayweather, Pacquiao, Messi, Djokovic/Federer, Brady

They're all praised by insane longevity.

It's sports medicine/science, no coincidence that all of them played to 40'ish at the highest level.

If Michael Jordan had notable longevity for his era you'd have a point...

But he didn't.

So you don't lol. You're talking about today's athletes as if MJ didn't have worse longevity than Kareem

What?

He shattered scoring records at age 40. That's just false.

[pepe1991]

Longevity changes with advance of medicine, training etc. In 10 years you will probably see somebody who is 43 and playing well because injury prevention, advanced drugs, PEDs will get even more advanced (and it's not like in nba anybody gets tested among stars).

Exactly.

Look at the best players of their sports lately- Mayweather, Pacquiao, Messi, Djokovic/Federer, Brady

They're all praised by insane longevity.

It's sports medicine/science, no coincidence that all of them played to 40'ish at the highest level.

If Michael Jordan had notable longevity for his era you'd have a point...

But he didn't.

So you don't lol. You're talking about today's athletes as if MJ didn't have worse longevity than Kareem

Kareem is literally THE oldest Allstar in nba history at age of 41. Matter of fact he makes near half of "oldest allstars ever".

You can make strong case for him as GOAT based on fact he was best player in the world for longest among MJ/LBJ/Kareem, won first ring at age of 23, last at age of 40, only nba player with 6 MVP awards, if DPOY award existed during vast majority of his career, he would rack probably 5+ such awards . He literally was second best defender in nba as rookie ( probably not first due fact Wilt existed).

Lebron isn't only player who in current sport shows, due new, modern medicine, that playing long is possible. In that regard he is no different than Federrer, Đoković, Modrić, Messi, Ronaldo.
Lebron isn't even only player in current league that is old and going strong, Curry, Durant are turning 37 , Mike Conley just started on team that went to WCF at age of 36, turns 37 in about 9 days.

Times have changed. Penalizing players from past to not having modern medicine & knowledge of present is just flat out dumb. Jabbar being so good for so long in times when athletes trained in ways that today would consider idiotic, barbaric , is just testiment of his name, not "normal".

Just quick story to understand where training for basketball was in 1987 for example. There is documentary called 250 stairs, about Yugoslavian u19 basketball team. Familiar names: Toni Kukoc, Dino Rada, Vlade Divac . Oh and Zoran Kalpic, who happend to be my former coach.
Anyway, as a group they would go to mountain Igman in central Bosnia. No houses in sight, no tehnology, no phones. Nothing, one empty house , in the morning people would bring food and leave, for damn month they haven't seen a single soul but 15 players & 4 coaches.
Now "training quality": well... there were, you guessed it right - 250 stairs that were made centuries ago.
So early in the moring they would have usual uphill sprints through that stairs. After that breakfest.
After that, still early in the morning they would go and jump over chairs with one leg, or do crunches and bodyweight squats or do resistence sprints while being held back by other player through some resistence bands.
After that lunch, in the afternoon- you are allowed to train with ball

Anyway, that U19 Yugoslavia team won world cup in 1987 without single loss, including finals win vs USA. (Gary Payton, Larry Johnson, Larry Brown as coach)


As you can see, those stairs weren't safe by any streach of imagination

Why this is important for context? This sort of training, by today standards would be considered:
1) overtraining
2 ) Kids abuse
3) too dangerous
3) barbaric
4) overkill

but that was all they knew. That's why longjevity in basketball is important, but needs context of time to understand. Just 14 years ago pro coaches were preachign that in squat you should never squat close to parallele because it will wrack your knees, now, with new studies it shows that if you didn't break parallel , you didn't even activate your glutes all that much as main focus. If you think 14 years ago it's 2007.

Spoiler:

And squatting like for damn sure isn't reason of Lebron's longevity. PEDs also work. ( for a record, imo, most nba players and athletes in general are on something, so it's not just attack on Lebron. It's just dirty little secret that fans aren't allowed to know, to paint their favorite athletes in more cartoonish, superhero-ish fashion than they are.

[Special_Puppy]

Anyone that brings up how situational or luck based Lebron's longevity is, is being silly. Of all the situational factors that affect one's basketball career, his longevity is pretty far down on the list. Why? Because everyone Lebron is playing with and against has access to the same resources that LeBron does, yet his longevity has trumped theirs regardless. For MULTIPLE years now Lebron has been the only player in his draft class that's even still in the league.

Lebron is also the only star in his draft class who came into the NBA out of high school. Wade/Melo/Bosh all went to college. That major situational factor got Lebron a 3-4 year head start over most legends through no merit of his own.

LeBron was able to go to the NBA straight out of high school unlike Wade/Melo/Bosh because he was so good so early. How is that not merit?

[Djoker]

Anyone that brings up how situational or luck based Lebron's longevity is, is being silly. Of all the situational factors that affect one's basketball career, his longevity is pretty far down on the list. Why? Because everyone Lebron is playing with and against has access to the same resources that LeBron does, yet his longevity has trumped theirs regardless. For MULTIPLE years now Lebron has been the only player in his draft class that's even still in the league.

Lebron is also the only star in his draft class who came into the NBA out of high school. Wade/Melo/Bosh all went to college. That major situational factor got Lebron a 3-4 year head start over most legends through no merit of his own.

LeBron was able to go to the NBA straight out of high school unlike Wade/Melo/Bosh because he was so good so early. How is that not merit?

I meant in comparison to legends in other eras when players didn't enter the NBA from high school. Sorry for not being clear.

[Special_Puppy]

Lebron is also the only star in his draft class who came into the NBA out of high school. Wade/Melo/Bosh all went to college. That major situational factor got Lebron a 3-4 year head start over most legends through no merit of his own.

LeBron was able to go to the NBA straight out of high school unlike Wade/Melo/Bosh because he was so good so early. How is that not merit?

I meant in comparison to legends in other eras when players didn't enter the NBA from high school. Sorry for not being clear.

This applies more to Kareem than Jordan and Russell. Kareem would have been a lock to be a top 3 pick if he was able to join the NBA straight out of high school. Russell wasn’t good enough at that point to get drafted even if he was able to. Jordan was able to get drafted and but probably wouldn’t have been a first rounder if he declared