Clutchness in elimination games..stats of Jordan, Kobe..

[microfib4thewin]

A first round elimination isn't nearly the pressure or quality of ball as the finals.

A great performance in a loss isn't always as good as a good performance in a win.

Extending a series when down 0-3 or 1-3 with a great performance is nice, but not that meaningful, and often it means your team is much worse and leans on the star much more.

You can talk about circumstances all you want. Kobe has been through pretty much any situation possible. Down in the series from the get go, up 3-1 and let the other team come back 3-3, playing elimination game at home or away, in the first-second-third-fourth round. He has been through every circumstances possible you can think of for elimination games, and the one and only constant is that Kobe is terrible when he's facing elimination over his 16 year playoff career.

blowouts change things

It would help if Kobe was capable of stopping the bleeding.

2003: Lost by 28 to the Spurs
2004: Lost by 20 heading into the 4th against the Pistons
2006: Lost by 31 to the Suns
2008: Lost by 39 to the Celtics
2011: Lost by 36 to the Mavs
2012: Lost by 16 to the Thunder

Kobe's team getting eliminated in a humiliating manner is as common of a theme as Shaq's team getting swept. If Kobe is this warrior who can will his team then why does his team always lose in such a fashion? Let's talk context since that's what certain people like to do.

2003: The Spurs played as a better team than the Lakers, so by technical means the Spurs does have the upper hand. What some people may not want to hear is that the Spurs were contemplating on rebuilding. They had no reliable player after Duncan and D-Rob was going to retire after that year. On a talent standpoint, there was nothing impressive about the 03 Spurs. Neither Parker and Manu were star players back then, Bowen has not established himself as a premier defender and the rest of the team were made of spare parts. Even when you take Shaq's laziness kicking in and Kobe's injury into account it is still a disappointment for the Lakers to get blown out by a supposed rebuilding team.

2004: Talk about how great Detroit was since the Sheed trade, excruciating circumstances for Kobe, etc, but that still won't nearly be enough to wipe the sour taste of perhaps the biggest upset of the last decade after the 2007 Mavs-Warriors series. If 2004 hadn't concluded in such an ugly way then Shaq and Malone would have most likely stayed for another year, Phil wouldn't have left, and the Lakers wouldn't need to tear everything down followed by 3 years of mediocrity. Kobe's terrible play in 2004 was the biggest reason the Lakers became a bad team, so I always get a chuckle whenever people talk about Kobe as if he was a victim when he was the catalyst that destroyed the franchise.

2006; On the year where Kobe is supposed to be the best player in the league(according to some people anyways), he put up a 19 PER performance against the Suns who was ranked 16th on defense, and PER is supposed to favor scorers. The rationale for the blowout was:

-Kobe >>>>> Nash
-Mike D was a good coach for Nash(oh, the irony)
-Nash's team >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe's team

So it's the same old drivel, Kobe is the best, his team is the worst so that is why he lost. Not losing the 3-1 lead and not letting his team get blown out in game 7 is simply too much to ask from the best player in the league against the guy who undeservedly stole the MVP award from Kobe.

2008: It's not the fact that the Lakers lost that is disappointing, but how they lost. The Celtics were the favorites but the Lakers were expected to put up a fight. By putting up a fight I mean not losing a 24 point lead in game 4 and losing by 39 in game 6, which I believe are still the NBA Finals records.

2011: If this was any other player they would be completely killed, but because Kobe already has winning creds no one blamed him for getting swept by the Mavs. The Lakers were 10-3 against Dallas since acquiring Gasol and won the season matchup 2-1. Dallas barely got rid of Portland in 6 games and Dirk didn't look all that great against a weak Blazer team. Just about everyone predicted the Lakers to win. Instead Dirk stepped up the pedal and the Lakers crumbled in the worst way possible. Some blamed it on Kobe's knees and they said Kobe will come back better than ever after his trip to Germany, and he ended up posting the lowest TS% in his career the following year.

2012: Unlike the other knockouts this one was easier to swallow. The Thunder did not stretch to a decisive lead until the middle of the 4th and Kobe had a monster game himself. What was often left unsaid however is that Kobe shot 38% in the first four games and he choked in game 2 and 4.

In extreme circumstances teams employ extreme tactics, ie doubling the star on every touch, packing the paint all game daring to shoot, fouling constantly, etc.

The way to defend Kobe is to lure him into trying difficult shots, and Kobe is more than happy to play into the defense's hands. The defense on Kobe isn't all that stingent. It only looks that way because Kobe only shoots when the shot is difficult to connect.

types of games played also makes a big deal. For example: 2010
Game 7 of a finals, unbelieveable pressure
Final score was 79-83 - a defensive slugfest
Team FG% was 40% and 32%

Kobe was the best player in that series by far according to Kobe backers, so shouldn't the best player in a series have influence on the flow of the game? If Kobe can't dictate the flow in his team's favor on a game 7 in the Finals then one has to wonder just how much influence Kobe has on the outcome of a game.

The train of excuses just never seems to stop with Kobe. I also like how Laker fans like to crap on Malone for choking. I guess it's understandable because after all, Malone is probably the closest to Kobe as far as their career goes, but since Karl was always labeled a choker for not winning they can't dirty Kobe's name by associating Kobe with him. Ironically Malone was the only star who actually played for the team in 2004 while the other three guys were too busy stroking their own ego.

[Gideon]

At one point, I calculated Bird's stats in series-deciding games (i.e. game 7 in a 7-game series, game 5 in a 5-game series, or game 3 in a 3-game series). There was some info missing from a couple of his earlier series, but all stats were there for most games. I also did not include Bird's final game 7 vs. the Cavs, since he out injured most of that PS, never should have been in the game at all, and retired afterwards.

Even though I rate Bird higher than most people on this forum, and felt confident that he would have a strong record in the most-important/highest-pressure games, I was still surprised at how exceptional the results were... we have to be talking GOAT-level (or damn close at the absolute minimum) stats for this specific scenario (i.e. level of play in deciding PS games) when it comes to Bird.

In 10 deciding PS games between 1981-1991, Bird's team went 8-2, and his averages were:

29.3 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.2 spg, and 1.5 bpg on .625 TS%

[Yoshun]

It's interesting how many of the top players actually have losing records all time in elimination games. Kobe, Mj, Duncan, etc... I really wasn't expecting to see that. It just goes to show you that with great success comes a good amount of failure. What makes these guys great is there ability to bounce back from this stuff.

Also, nice stats for TMac. So many consider him a choker.

[LakerFanMan]

Kobe was the best player in that series by far according to Kobe backers, so shouldn't the best player in a series have influence on the flow of the game? If Kobe can't dictate the flow in his team's favor on a game 7 in the Finals then one has to wonder just how much influence Kobe has on the outcome of a game.

The train of excuses just never seems to stop with Kobe. I also like how Laker fans like to crap on Malone for choking. I guess it's understandable because after all, Malone is probably the closest to Kobe as far as their career goes, but since Karl was always labeled a choker for not winning they can't dirty Kobe's name by associating Kobe with him. Ironically Malone was the only star who actually played for the team in 2004 while the other three guys were too busy stroking their own ego.

If you follow the logic of the bolded part, no star player or "player with influence" should ever lose a big game. They would just will their team to victory every time with their influence over game flow.

Also the second part is a huge stretch. Malone had the worst season of his career during that year with the Lakers. He posted career lows in every category and played pretty much the whole season with a pretty bad knee injurty. He's definitely not the reason we lost and often gets too much criticism, but saying he was the only star who played is a pretty big stretch.

[Joao Saraiva]

I'm actually surprised by Kobe's % at the line. Less than 80% for him is not normal.

[Joao Saraiva]

At one point, I calculated Bird's stats in series-deciding games (i.e. game 7 in a 7-game series, game 5 in a 5-game series, or game 3 in a 3-game series). There was some info missing from a couple of his earlier series, but all stats were there for most games. I also did not include Bird's final game 7 vs. the Cavs, since he out injured most of that PS, never should have been in the game at all, and retired afterwards.

Even though I rate Bird higher than most people on this forum, and felt confident that he would have a strong record in the most-important/highest-pressure games, I was still surprised at how exceptional the results were... we have to be talking GOAT-level (or damn close at the absolute minimum) stats for this specific scenario (i.e. level of play in deciding PS games) when it comes to Bird.

In 10 deciding PS games between 1981-1991, Bird's team went 8-2, and his averages were:

29.3 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.2 spg, and 1.5 bpg on .625 TS%

Deciding games are much different from elimination games. For example, LeBron had deciding vs Detroit 4-0 and Atlanta 4-0 in 2009. How much is the last game worth? Not much I'd say. Facing elimination is diferent, it means you have a great team in front of you. Just to see LeBron, he faced elimination vs Spurs, Pacers 2x, Boston since he joined the Heat. It's quite different than analyzing a game 5 against the Bucks.

EDIT: and Dallas of course.

[supaflash]

Wow Microfib, hate flow throughh you much. I wasn't even talking specifically about Kobe, every guy and game on that list has context, and much of yours is way off.


2003 - WTF are you talking about? The Spurs were a rebuilding team? They won 60 games and won the title. Are you kidding? The Lakers just came off 3 straight titles, they were beat up and tired, they added no new pieces, lost old ones. Fish was injured, Devean George was the starting SF, Horry was guarding Duncan, and Slava Medvedenko was the 6th man in that series.

2004 - Everyone knows Kobe played bad, but not that bad. Shaq wasn't his dominant self, Sheed and Wallace were giving him trouble, and they took Malone out of the series. Prince sagged off Kobe with his length and dared Kobe to shoot all series and he didn't shoot well, but they had no spacing. Fish was hurt, GP couldn't hit a shot and Kobe was going back and forth chasing Rip through screens or trying to stop Billups' pick and roll. Don't forget that it was Chauncey who was FMVP because Shaq couldn't stop the pick and roll at all and they abused him to death.

2006 - Really? The Suns were a 54 win team and a heavy favorite. Don't forget Kobe had 50/8/5 on 57% in game 6 when all they needed was a rebound to win the series. He also had 23pts on 56% in the first half of that game 7 and his team was still losing by 17. They tried to pound it inside (like how they started winning the series in the first place) Kwame and co completely botched it and the game was out of hand within just a few minutes into the 3rd and Phoenix was rolling. I love the revisionist history that somehow Kobe quit on his team this game, when in reality his team failed him and Phoenix just kicked their butts.

2008 - Yeah the loss stings, but the Cs were a 66 win team and one of the best defenses ever. The comeback loss he didn't play great, he shot bad but didn't turn it over very much and had 10 assists, the team as a whole choked, Gasol missing dunks and layups, Vujacik missing wide open shots all game, Turiaf blowing the dunk and missing both free throws on two crucial gimmie assists by Kobe. It killed the spirit of the team but they got back to Boston. Kobe almost led the Lakers to their own comeback in game 2 despite being ravaged by the officials. Don't forget that in that game 6 Kobe had 13 pts just in to the second quarter and it was only a 4 pt game when Boston just started hitting on everything. They were rolling at home and nothing was going to stop them. No one man can stop a land slide, he was trying but no one came with and Boston simply willed harder as a team. They were a great team and won the championship in a convincing manner. I'd say Kobe responded pretty well. Kobe didn't play that great, but he also didn't play that bad. That team started a Thibs style defensive movement since.

2011 - Sweep was bad, but it wasn't much of an anomaly considering Dallas streaked to the title. They were hot and LA couldn't stop them, no one did. LA was in bad shape before that though, struggling down the stretch, Phil was checked out and Pau disappeared in the playoffs. Game 1 was the turning point though. Kobe had 36 on 48% in game 1 but they lost, but that was also where his biggest choke was in that series. There was the big Pau miss and the foul of Dirk at half court but Kobe also missed an easy layup and had a bad turnover in the final minutes. He played a great game until those final mins. Metta was also completely out of this series. Dallas went on to exploit the slowness and put on a shooting display like no other. When they went on the run in game 4 there was nothing anyone was going to do, Pau was pouting and Bynum was being an ass getting ejected. This was also a tired team after 3 straight finals... Say what you will but that takes a toll.

2012 - Kobe played a good series against a team they were simply overmatched with. The Thunder went to the finals with that athleticism. LA had their chances though and kept it close, Kobe did struggle in the late 4th of that cruicial game 2 no doubt. He had crucial misses and turnovers late in that game. Maybe it was legs, maybe it was a choke. And he played a great game 4 also but couldn't close it in the last few mins. Then he had a monster game 5 and it didn't matter. Considering he was also trying to defend Westbrook, while his PGs disapeared, pretty hard to fault him much last year. Maybe he shot a bit too much and tried too hard, but Metta was shooting horrible that year and so was the bench, and Pau and Bynum weren't quite working as well together as people believed that it should be so easy to just continue to pound them.

This isn't about Kobe though, this is about elimination pressure and almost every star here has had bad games, choked, lost early and late. Kobe hasn't been great in elimination games, and I don't think anyone here has said he has, my only point is many stats are misleading without context. Dirk choked in 07 and this year, Duncan lost int he first round as a favorite a few times and had bad closeout games. Bron had bad closeout games, lost in the finals, had injury concerns. Remember elbow? Jordan had a few bad games, lost in first rounds, choked in finals games, and had bad stat games which he won (see the Seattle series)

People say numbers don't lie, but they do without context man. I too remember Stockton and Malone games, Stock was clutch, Malone was often not late, yet the numbers don't really show it. Barkley was beast in eliminations, he still lost a lot and didn't win a title. These games and stats are very very interesting and say a lot, but they don't say the whole picture, and they need to be looked at much deeper then just throwing some numbers in columns and saying look there wow... A couple of the MDEs Shaq and Wilt often struggled in closeouts because teams could double and foul and force their teammates to win for one game. Sometimes Shaq had teammates like Kobe and Wade that helped him out. Sometimes Kobe and Wade struggled and had teammates like Shaq and Bron that helped them out. Sometimes Jordan had a teammates like Pip and Rodman and a team like the Bulls. Jordan also shot poor % in both Utah series and shot more shots then Kobe has in any series. (Fun fact Bulls picked up Brian Williams just before the playoffs, he was a 16 and 8 guy the year before and starts playing late in the finals after Utah ties the series and is a big factor to them winning, I remember thinking that if they didn't have him they may have lost that finals, speculation I know, but those were close close games and he played big parts kind of like PJ Brown in 2008).

Anyway I'm rambling. Again, nobody is perfect under pressure. Bron had maybe the best game 7 ever this year. PEACE.

[Rasho_libre]

Wow Microfib, hate flow throughh you much. I wasn't even talking specifically about Kobe, every guy and game on that list has context, and much of yours is way off.


2003 - WTF are you talking about? The Spurs were a rebuilding team? They won 60 games and won the title. Are you kidding? The Lakers just came off 3 straight titles, they were beat up and tired, they added no new pieces, lost old ones. Fish was injured, Devean George was the starting SF, Horry was guarding Duncan, and Slava Medvedenko was the 6th man in that series.

2004 - Everyone knows Kobe played bad, but not that bad. Shaq wasn't his dominant self, Sheed and Wallace were giving him trouble, and they took Malone out of the series. Prince sagged off Kobe with his length and dared Kobe to shoot all series and he didn't shoot well, but they had no spacing. Fish was hurt, GP couldn't hit a shot and Kobe was going back and forth chasing Rip through screens or trying to stop Billups' pick and roll. Don't forget that it was Chauncey who was FMVP because Shaq couldn't stop the pick and roll at all and they abused him to death.

2006 - Really? The Suns were a 54 win team and a heavy favorite. Don't forget Kobe had 50/8/5 on 57% in game 6 when all they needed was a rebound to win the series. He also had 23pts on 56% in the first half of that game 7 and his team was still losing by 17. They tried to pound it inside (like how they started winning the series in the first place) Kwame and co completely botched it and the game was out of hand within just a few minutes into the 3rd and Phoenix was rolling. I love the revisionist history that somehow Kobe quit on his team this game, when in reality his team failed him and Phoenix just kicked their butts.

2008 - Yeah the loss stings, but the Cs were a 66 win team and one of the best defenses ever. The comeback loss he didn't play great, he shot bad but didn't turn it over very much and had 10 assists, the team as a whole choked, Gasol missing dunks and layups, Vujacik missing wide open shots all game, Turiaf blowing the dunk and missing both free throws on two crucial gimmie assists by Kobe. It killed the spirit of the team but they got back to Boston. Kobe almost led the Lakers to their own comeback in game 2 despite being ravaged by the officials. Don't forget that in that game 6 Kobe had 13 pts just in to the second quarter and it was only a 4 pt game when Boston just started hitting on everything. They were rolling at home and nothing was going to stop them. No one man can stop a land slide, he was trying but no one came with and Boston simply willed harder as a team. They were a great team and won the championship in a convincing manner. I'd say Kobe responded pretty well. Kobe didn't play that great, but he also didn't play that bad. That team started a Thibs style defensive movement since.

2011 - Sweep was bad, but it wasn't much of an anomaly considering Dallas streaked to the title. They were hot and LA couldn't stop them, no one did. LA was in bad shape before that though, struggling down the stretch, Phil was checked out and Pau disappeared in the playoffs. Game 1 was the turning point though. Kobe had 36 on 48% in game 1 but they lost, but that was also where his biggest choke was in that series. There was the big Pau miss and the foul of Dirk at half court but Kobe also missed an easy layup and had a bad turnover in the final minutes. He played a great game until those final mins. Metta was also completely out of this series. Dallas went on to exploit the slowness and put on a shooting display like no other. When they went on the run in game 4 there was nothing anyone was going to do, Pau was pouting and Bynum was being an ass getting ejected. This was also a tired team after 3 straight finals... Say what you will but that takes a toll.

2012 - Kobe played a good series against a team they were simply overmatched with. The Thunder went to the finals with that athleticism. LA had their chances though and kept it close, Kobe did struggle in the late 4th of that cruicial game 2 no doubt. He had crucial misses and turnovers late in that game. Maybe it was legs, maybe it was a choke. And he played a great game 4 also but couldn't close it in the last few mins. Then he had a monster game 5 and it didn't matter. Considering he was also trying to defend Westbrook, while his PGs disapeared, pretty hard to fault him much last year. Maybe he shot a bit too much and tried too hard, but Metta was shooting horrible that year and so was the bench, and Pau and Bynum weren't quite working as well together as people believed that it should be so easy to just continue to pound them.

This isn't about Kobe though, this is about elimination pressure and almost every star here has had bad games, choked, lost early and late. Kobe hasn't been great in elimination games, and I don't think anyone here has said he has, my only point is many stats are misleading without context. Dirk choked in 07 and this year, Duncan lost int he first round as a favorite a few times and had bad closeout games. Bron had bad closeout games, lost in the finals, had injury concerns. Remember elbow? Jordan had a few bad games, lost in first rounds, choked in finals games, and had bad stat games which he won (see the Seattle series)

People say numbers don't lie, but they do without context man. I too remember Stockton and Malone games, Stock was clutch, Malone was often not late, yet the numbers don't really show it. Barkley was beast in eliminations, he still lost a lot and didn't win a title. These games and stats are very very interesting and say a lot, but they don't say the whole picture, and they need to be looked at much deeper then just throwing some numbers in columns and saying look there wow... A couple of the MDEs Shaq and Wilt often struggled in closeouts because teams could double and foul and force their teammates to win for one game. Sometimes Shaq had teammates like Kobe and Wade that helped him out. Sometimes Kobe and Wade struggled and had teammates like Shaq and Bron that helped them out. Sometimes Jordan had a teammates like Pip and Rodman and a team like the Bulls. Jordan also shot poor % in both Utah series and shot more shots then Kobe has in any series. (Fun fact Bulls picked up Brian Williams just before the playoffs, he was a 16 and 8 guy the year before and starts playing late in the finals after Utah ties the series and is a big factor to them winning, I remember thinking that if they didn't have him they may have lost that finals, speculation I know, but those were close close games and he played big parts kind of like PJ Brown in 2008).

Anyway I'm rambling. Again, nobody is perfect under pressure. Bron had maybe the best game 7 ever this year. PEACE.

Everyone has had bad eliminations games, Kobe's just had 17 years worth of em.

[Jimmy Recard]

snip

Agreed with pretty much everything you said. Only one nitpick though; iirc, the Lakers were favored to be beat Boston going into the '08 Finals.

[Frank Mulely]

points off (to me) for Dirk getting sonned by GSW and Stephen Jackson in 07. I never saw Jordan get handled like that.

Yea, because he's no Jordan.
But take for example the Denver series in 09, Nowitzki averaged 34/12/4 on 53% shooting, and the Mavs won only 1 single game in that series. Those are ridiculous superstar stats but people never bring them up. They'll bring up 07. It's just one-sided, people love to hate.

Nowitzki's stat are really impressive, but Chandler during that title run was playing DPOY level defense. Nowitizki didn't need a secondary star scorer, but he absolutely depended upon Chandler (& to a lesser extent Marion) to shore up their defense.

Looking back, I think It was all about team defense. Even 38-year Kidd was very valuable on the defense end at that point. And Nowitzki's help defense played a very important role, too (ask LeBron). Actually, I think Nowitzki is underrated defensively. RAPM shows it year after year.

listen I think peak Dirk is probably closer to GOAT status than most people tend to acknowledge. honestly the only guys I've seen dominate more emphatically throughout a playoff run as best player on a title team are Jordan, Shaq, and Dream. maybe Bird but I'm a bit young to have really watched his entire 85-86 run which was probably his peak. Dirk's one super dominant playoff run can't be understated how good it was. that said, I'm just saying: Dirk's not on the top level of clutch players TO ME because I saw him - in his prime (MVP season) and not injury ridden - get ran off the court in a way that Jordan, in-shape Shaq, healthy Dream and healthy Bird never did. it matters. I'll take Jordan, Bird, and Dream in an elimination game over Dirk any day. stats be damned.

[microfib4thewin]

Wow Microfib, hate flow throughh you much. I wasn't even talking specifically about Kobe, every guy and game on that list has context, and much of yours is way off.

Please. Any time Kobe's failures get pointed out there will be people who will try to use context to excuse Kobe for every shortcoming.

2003 - It does sound ridiculous doesn't it. How can a 60 win team that ended up winning the title even consider rebuilding? That's when you should look at context and not just try to make excuses for the player you are trying to defend. The Spurs went 3 years without a title. Robinson was close to retirement. No one knew what Manu and Parker's future will be. S-Jax and Bowen were still unknowns who did not establish their reputation as some of the league's best defenders until later, and I doubt you would give a crap about Malik Rose, Steve Smith in his twilight years, 40 year old Kevin Willis, or Speedy Claxton if those guys are on the Lakers. If the Spurs weren't thinking of a massive retool why would they even think about trading Parker for Kidd after they won the title? The 2003 Spurs did not win a title because they had a huge stack of offensive or defensive talent. They won the title because Duncan was able to elevate an average team in a way that Kobe and Shaq have never achieved. On a talent standpoint, the 03 Lakers were superior. On a chemistry standpoint, the Spurs were much better and that is why they beat the Lakers.

2004 - Kobe did not have a single series in the playoffs where you can say he played well, and 'he did not play that bad in the Finals'? Are we even watching the same series? Shaq taking a dump playing defense is nothing comparable to Kobe who hurts the team with his chucking and his no show on defense against Rip. Spacing is created by superstars who are willing to let the shooters shoot an uncontested 3, in Kobe's case he's much more willing to shoot a contested 2 than let shooters touch the ball. If you can excuse Kobe for 2004 then you can excuse Kobe from pretty much anything. What Kobe did would have damaged the franchise beyond repair had they not landed Gasol four years later.

2006 - Yes. The Suns was the favorite, though they weren't the heavy favorite by any means. We also have to consider that with a 3-1 lead the guy who you label as the best player in the game should have been able to seal the series against the so called fake MVP that Laker fans frequently labeled Nash as. Apparently this fake MVP and Mike D were too much for Kobe and Phil to handle.

As for Kobe's performance in game 7, there is already a 16 year sample of him playing badly in elimination. Him taking only 3 shots in the second half is hardly the only damning evidence of Kobe disappearing when the team needs him the most.

2008 - I really like 'The team as a whole choked' statement, because it gives off the impression that Kobe playing badly should have no effect on the rest of the team. Ever wonder that maybe, just maybe, the Lakers wouldn't be steamrolled if Kobe actually showed up?

If you are going to disassociate Kobe from his team's failing, then it's only fair to do the same when the team won despite Kobe playing like crap, game 7 of 2010 for example, but who am I kidding? You guys will continue to pile it on the team when they failed even though Kobe was the worst player on the court and you guys will continue to credit Kobe when his team wins even though there is no indication that he played well.

2011 - Dallas didn't start the train UNTIL they played the Lakers. It would have been more understandable if Dallas beat Portland like a lost puppy, but Dallas barely won in game 6 to fend off the Blazers. It is the Lakers themselves underperforming that gave Dallas the emotional high needed to finish their playoff run. The Lakers could have played a lot better and it would have been the Lakers that advanced, not the Mavs.

2012 - If anyone else shot 38% on the field for four games they would be murdered without a corpse. Kobe played good defense on Harden but he was horrible as a scorer. Game 5 is magnificient on an individual standpoint, but is it good for 5 on 5 basketball? Kobe pretty much went Pistol Pete and go at it 1 on 5. That simply doesn't work against a better team.

Kobe was terrible on the offensive end and it has nothing to do with what Pau, Metta or the rest of the Lakers did. It is not their fault that Kobe went 0-1 with 2 TOs in the final two minutes of game 2 when they had a 7 point lead and 1-5 with 2 made FTs in the final 6 minutes of game 4 when they had a 10 point lead.



Again, stop lumping Kobe with the other greats. They have had their share of bad games in elimination but plenty of successful ones, and none of them have played anywhere as badly as Kobe had over their whole career. This is strictly a problem that only Kobe has, and it's time to stop using his team as a meatshield whenever Kobe fails.

[BmanInBigD]

micro tellin' it like it is. Yep, that was for the win.

[NBA4EVA2010]

Wow Microfib, hate flow throughh you much. I wasn't even talking specifically about Kobe, every guy and game on that list has context, and much of yours is way off.

Please. Any time Kobe's failures get pointed out there will be people who will try to use context to excuse Kobe for every shortcoming.

.

Great question

[trex_8063]

I'll take a Stockton/Michael/Lebron/Dirk/Duncan line-up FTW!

[semi-sentient]

2003

Applying context is only possible when you actually know what happened in the games that you're referring to. As it pertains to 2003, you would have to take into consideration Kobe's shoulder injury. You also would need to consider that the Spurs completely trashed the Lakers in the closeout game, and the majority of Kobe's misses came in the 4th quarter when he was bombing away from 3-point land trying to reduce a large deficit. Kobe was 8-12 heading into the 4th quarter and the Lakers were still down by 11 points. Was he expected to keep up that type of efficiency?

So yeah, don't worry about applying context or anything. The stat line says it all, right?

2004 - Kobe did not have a single series in the playoffs where you can say he played well

This is one of the most ridiculous things you've managed to pull out of your ass in this thread. Against the Spurs, the #1 defense in the league, he put up 26.3 pts (.534 ts%), 6.3 reb, 5.3 ast, and 3.3 tov. Before you go criticizing his scoring efficiency realize that the average ts% in the post-season that year was .499 so he was well above average.

Against the Wolves (the 6th best defense), he put up 24.3 pts (.519 ts%), 4.0 reb, 5.5 ast, and 2.8 tov.

I don't know what crazy ass world you live in, but he played well in both of those series even if you just look at it from a purely statistical standpoint.

If you want anyone to take you seriously then you should at least make an attempt at being honest every now and then regarding Kobe instead of letting your hatred cloud your judgement.

2006 - Yes. The Suns was the favorite, though they weren't the heavy favorite by any means. We also have to consider that with a 3-1 lead the guy who you label as the best player in the game should have been able to seal the series against the so called fake MVP that Laker fans frequently labeled Nash as. Apparently this fake MVP and Mike D were too much for Kobe and Phil to handle.

Good lord. The series would have been over after 6 had the Lakers been able to get a defensive rebound at the end of regulation, so yeah, he performed well enough to seal the deal.

Anyway, all of your posts are just horrible and you're going back on ignore. You offer little, if any, real insight into what actually happens on a basketball court, and you hide behind statistics and false information knowing that most of the kids on this board don't know any better. People like you force others to defend Kobe even when they don't want to because you spout nothing but nonsense due to some misplaced hatred for a person you don't even know. It's pathetic.

[14nowitzki41]

It's great to finally see Dirk get some recognition. Most people remember him for his epic run in 2011 but if you look at his stats, his run wasn't much different from his career averages in the playoffs. The only difference is he scored more in the 4th in 2011 than in his other years. All he needed was a defensive minded center next to him who could fill in the hole in the paint and a hard-nosed gritty attitude (Stevenson and Chandler) and at last gets recognized.

[semi-sentient]

People get too caught up in Dirk's failures to realize that he's generally been an awesome post-season performer, and it's mostly because they're clueless to begin with. It's perfectly fine that all-time greats have bad series from time to time, but when they do it somehow gets amplified since most fanatics on this board have a need to hate successful players. What a waste of time.

[Gideon]

At one point, I calculated Bird's stats in series-deciding games (i.e. game 7 in a 7-game series, game 5 in a 5-game series, or game 3 in a 3-game series). There was some info missing from a couple of his earlier series, but all stats were there for most games. I also did not include Bird's final game 7 vs. the Cavs, since he out injured most of that PS, never should have been in the game at all, and retired afterwards.

Even though I rate Bird higher than most people on this forum, and felt confident that he would have a strong record in the most-important/highest-pressure games, I was still surprised at how exceptional the results were... we have to be talking GOAT-level (or damn close at the absolute minimum) stats for this specific scenario (i.e. level of play in deciding PS games) when it comes to Bird.

In 10 deciding PS games between 1981-1991, Bird's team went 8-2, and his averages were:

29.3 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.2 spg, and 1.5 bpg on .625 TS%

Deciding games are much different from elimination games. For example, LeBron had deciding vs Detroit 4-0 and Atlanta 4-0 in 2009. How much is the last game worth? Not much I'd say. Facing elimination is diferent, it means you have a great team in front of you. Just to see LeBron, he faced elimination vs Spurs, Pacers 2x, Boston since he joined the Heat. It's quite different than analyzing a game 5 against the Bucks.

EDIT: and Dallas of course.

The parenthetical in the first sentence of my original post explains that when I use the term "deciding games" I'm referring ONLY to PS games that are "win or go home" for BOTH teams.

Just to be really clear, I wasn't "analyzing a game 5 against the Bucks" at all. I'm doing almost the exact opposite of that -- only analyzing the games with the absolute most importance where the series is tied going into the game, so no matter which team wins, the game decides who wins the entire series

Obviously, there will be very small sample sizes with this method, but I still think it's interesting to look at players' performance during these "deciding games" since it is the overall highest-pressure/most-at-stake possible situation in the NBA.

[UnbelievablyRAW]

A .53TS% is trash

lmao at trying to sneak that in there and give it a pass because other people were worse

[Joao Saraiva]

At one point, I calculated Bird's stats in series-deciding games (i.e. game 7 in a 7-game series, game 5 in a 5-game series, or game 3 in a 3-game series). There was some info missing from a couple of his earlier series, but all stats were there for most games. I also did not include Bird's final game 7 vs. the Cavs, since he out injured most of that PS, never should have been in the game at all, and retired afterwards.

Even though I rate Bird higher than most people on this forum, and felt confident that he would have a strong record in the most-important/highest-pressure games, I was still surprised at how exceptional the results were... we have to be talking GOAT-level (or damn close at the absolute minimum) stats for this specific scenario (i.e. level of play in deciding PS games) when it comes to Bird.

In 10 deciding PS games between 1981-1991, Bird's team went 8-2, and his averages were:

29.3 ppg, 9.5 rpg, 7.3 apg, 1.2 spg, and 1.5 bpg on .625 TS%

Deciding games are much different from elimination games. For example, LeBron had deciding vs Detroit 4-0 and Atlanta 4-0 in 2009. How much is the last game worth? Not much I'd say. Facing elimination is diferent, it means you have a great team in front of you. Just to see LeBron, he faced elimination vs Spurs, Pacers 2x, Boston since he joined the Heat. It's quite different than analyzing a game 5 against the Bucks.

EDIT: and Dallas of course.

The parenthetical in the first sentence of my original post explains that when I use the term "deciding games" I'm referring ONLY to PS games that are "win or go home" for BOTH teams.

Just to be really clear, I wasn't "analyzing a game 5 against the Bucks" at all. I'm doing almost the exact opposite of that -- only analyzing the games with the absolute most importance where the series is tied going into the game, so no matter which team wins, the game decides who wins the entire series

Obviously, there will be very small sample sizes with this method, but I still think it's interesting to look at players' performance during these "deciding games" since it is the overall highest-pressure/most-at-stake possible situation in the NBA.

Sorry, misread it. Thanks for replying my bad