ESPN adds new overall stat...REAL PLUS/MINUS..Finally!

[justin12140]

Steve Novak was an awful defender, he has turned into a just below average defender. Hence his defensive rating of -0.33.

Raymond Felton is a bad defender, but he's a positive offensive player..

Off: 1.58
Def: -1.26

Total of 0.32, making Felton about an average player in the NBA.

These are basically the kinds of things someone who doesn't ever actually watch games but simply looks at stats would say.

There is no Toronto or New York fan that would buy any of your opinions, Bulls fans clearly don't care for what the stat says about Augustin…perhaps this stat is not as impeccable as you think?

When it comes down to a choice between the opinions of dumb fans, or the objective measure of a stat that is considered the BEST stat by everyone knowledgeable in the field. All the best teams pay good money to have guys who do these stats for them internally..that includes the Mavericks (Mark Cuban hired the first guys to make this stat), The Spurs, the Rockets, the Grizzlies, the Phoenix Suns, the Heat

not too mention the the best gamblers..see Bob Voulgaris who makes millions upon millions a year better on NBA basketball..heck he has got millions of dollars of action going on a single night and constantly tweets about how Chandler is the best player on the Knicks (per minute)

So to review...in favor of RPM we have..

The best stats guru
The best basketball minds on NBA front offices
The best basketball gamblers

or the opinion of a college age fan posting on an internet forum...hmm..tough choice...

what an awful argument. you cant refute anything he says so you go on a tangent about what other people think of the stat. All I want to know is how Novak is a higher impact player than ariza, booker, Tucker, and batum. thats all im asking

[mysticbb]

what an awful argument. you cant refute anything he says so you go on a tangent about what other people think of the stat. All I want to know is how Novak is a higher impact player than ariza, booker, Tucker, and batum. thats all im asking

It is rather simple, actually. If you would really understand the game, it would also be really easy for you to see why that happens. Novak is stretching the floor, helping the team with better spacing. He also converts his perimeter attempts with way above league average efficiency and is not turning the ball over. He is an highly efficient shooter in a specific role, which has usually seen great positive effect on the offensive performance of the team while not having a huge negative on their defense despite the belief of some random fans.

For sure, you can't give a guy like Novak more minutes and expect to be more successful, because that guy functions in his role as well as in specific matchup situations far better than he would in general. Usually coaches know that and that's why they are using those players exactly in such roles. It is the same with Matt Bonner, or Channing Frye (who is actually more than just that "stretch 4"), with McRoberts/Tolliver and then you have the very best of them in Nowitzki or Love, who are presenting even a threat for the whole game due to additonal skills beyond just excellent outside shooting at their respective size.

For Felton: The team with him on the floor plays better offense than without him. And in comparison to the league average, he even makes that bigger impact in average despite being an rather inefficient scorer. If we adjust for the inherent abilities of the players (the difference in offensive efficieny could simply be caused by playing with better offensive players together while without him worse offensive players would be on the court), we see that with Felton in comparison to an average player the players are in average scoring more effiiciently and turning the ball over less. It may not be "watchable", because in average such nuances would be hard to detect anyway, but it is a fact; those teammates of Felton are in average more efficient offensive players with him on the court. Usually, that's what PG do for their teammates; they passing the ball to them when they are in better position to do something with it (either further pass the ball or shoot or get into a better iso situation or post-up) which means the chance of a turnover is reduced as well as the chance of scoring in that possession is increased. Felton is doing that exact thing. He is not awesome offensively due to his own struggling with the scoring part, but he is still helping his teammates to perform better.

Usually, when the part about running the offense doesn't lead to an incredible amount of assists, people will not recognize that. They will then focus on the scoring part of that player and will judge the player by that. That is similar to Derek Fisher, whos ability to run the offense (in the past and partly still today) by making the right decision and passes, as well as his ability to organize the defense by giving the necessary instruction to his teammates, is greatly underappreciated. But well, some fans need to stick with their belief that they know better than those coaches using such players as well as dismissing the real results happening on the court. It is a quite interesting behaviour ...

[justin12140]

what an awful argument. you cant refute anything he says so you go on a tangent about what other people think of the stat. All I want to know is how Novak is a higher impact player than ariza, booker, Tucker, and batum. thats all im asking

It is rather simple, actually. If you would really understand the game, it would also be really easy for you to see why that happens. Novak is stretching the floor, helping the team with better spacing. He also converts his perimeter attempts with way above league average efficiency and is not turning the ball over. He is an highly efficient shooter in a specific role, which has usually seen great positive effect on the offensive performance of the team while not having a huge negative on their defense despite the belief of some random fans.

For sure, you can't give a guy like Novak more minutes and expect to be more successful, because that guy functions in his role as well as in specific matchup situations far better than he would in general. Usually coaches know that and that's why they are using those players exactly in such roles. It is the same with Matt Bonner, or Channing Frye (who is actually more than just that "stretch 4"), with McRoberts/Tolliver and then you have the very best of them in Nowitzki or Love, who are presenting even a threat for the whole game due to additonal skills beyond just excellent outside shooting at their respective size.

For Felton: The team with him on the floor plays better offense than without him. And in comparison to the league average, he even makes that bigger impact in average despite being an rather inefficient scorer. If we adjust for the inherent abilities of the players (the difference in offensive efficieny could simply be caused by playing with better offensive players together while without him worse offensive players would be on the court), we see that with Felton in comparison to an average player the players are in average scoring more effiiciently and turning the ball over less. It may not be "watchable", because in average such nuances would be hard to detect anyway, but it is a fact; those teammates of Felton are in average more efficient offensive players with him on the court. Usually, that's what PG do for their teammates; they passing the ball to them when they are in better position to do something with it (either further pass the ball or shoot or get into a better iso situation or post-up) which means the chance of a turnover is reduced as well as the chance of scoring in that possession is increased. Felton is doing that exact thing. He is not awesome offensively due to his own struggling with the scoring part, but he is still helping his teammates to perform better.


Usually, when the part about running the offense doesn't lead to an incredible amount of assists, people will not recognize that. They will then focus on the scoring part of that player and will judge the player by that. That is similar to Derek Fisher, whos ability to run the offense (in the past and partly still today) by making the right decision and passes, as well as his ability to organize the defense by giving the necessary instruction to his teammates, is greatly underappreciated. But well, some fans need to stick with their belief that they know better than those coaches using such players as well as dismissing the real results happening on the court. It is a quite interesting behaviour ...

Im sorry but this stat is still useless to me. Ariza has been shooting lights out from 3 all season, while guarding the best player on the opposing team, while scoring, assisting, rebounding, and getting steals. Novak shoots a marginal .026% better at 3 point range (on half the attempts as Ariza). As a knick fan I know to well the spacing that novak provides but it is crazy to watch both the Wizards and the Raptors and come to the conclusion that Novak is a more impactful player than Ariza your crazy. Since GM's are using this formula do you think if they had the opportunity they would sign Novak over Ariza? afterall he does have a higher RPM.

and felton can def be useful in certain situations. Hes the only pg on the team that can actually break down the defense and that is valuable in itself but when this stat tries to tell me his offensive impact is greater than Kemba Walker or Reggie Jackson I cant take it seriously. Your trying to make excuses for felton, but if his impact is sooo great why did the knicks try so aggressively to trade him before the deadline (for PGs with "worse" impact than him like Collison) and yet no team would bite.

this stat has inncositencies everywhere that just simply watching the game would tell you. Ryan Kelly more impactful on the offesnive end than Blake Grifiin and Lamarcus Aldrige?

[primecougar]

what an awful argument. you cant refute anything he says so you go on a tangent about what other people think of the stat. All I want to know is how Novak is a higher impact player than ariza, booker, Tucker, and batum. thats all im asking

It is rather simple, actually. If you would really understand the game, it would also be really easy for you to see why that happens. Novak is stretching the floor, helping the team with better spacing. He also converts his perimeter attempts with way above league average efficiency and is not turning the ball over. He is an highly efficient shooter in a specific role, which has usually seen great positive effect on the offensive performance of the team while not having a huge negative on their defense despite the belief of some random fans.

For sure, you can't give a guy like Novak more minutes and expect to be more successful, because that guy functions in his role as well as in specific matchup situations far better than he would in general. Usually coaches know that and that's why they are using those players exactly in such roles. It is the same with Matt Bonner, or Channing Frye (who is actually more than just that "stretch 4"), with McRoberts/Tolliver and then you have the very best of them in Nowitzki or Love, who are presenting even a threat for the whole game due to additonal skills beyond just excellent outside shooting at their respective size.

For Felton: The team with him on the floor plays better offense than without him. And in comparison to the league average, he even makes that bigger impact in average despite being an rather inefficient scorer. If we adjust for the inherent abilities of the players (the difference in offensive efficieny could simply be caused by playing with better offensive players together while without him worse offensive players would be on the court), we see that with Felton in comparison to an average player the players are in average scoring more effiiciently and turning the ball over less. It may not be "watchable", because in average such nuances would be hard to detect anyway, but it is a fact; those teammates of Felton are in average more efficient offensive players with him on the court. Usually, that's what PG do for their teammates; they passing the ball to them when they are in better position to do something with it (either further pass the ball or shoot or get into a better iso situation or post-up) which means the chance of a turnover is reduced as well as the chance of scoring in that possession is increased. Felton is doing that exact thing. He is not awesome offensively due to his own struggling with the scoring part, but he is still helping his teammates to perform better.

Usually, when the part about running the offense doesn't lead to an incredible amount of assists, people will not recognize that. They will then focus on the scoring part of that player and will judge the player by that. That is similar to Derek Fisher, whos ability to run the offense (in the past and partly still today) by making the right decision and passes, as well as his ability to organize the defense by giving the necessary instruction to his teammates, is greatly underappreciated. But well, some fans need to stick with their belief that they know better than those coaches using such players as well as dismissing the real results happening on the court. It is a quite interesting behaviour ...

see this is the problem with using stats in a team sport. this is what you said about novak regarding his defense " while not having a huge negative on their defense despite the belief of some random fans".

every time novak steps on the floor, the raptors put him on the worst offensive player on the other team. this also forces another guy to guard a player that he probably shouldn't ( this also forces one of derozan or amir to cover a small forward.). of course his defensive numbers dont look bad.

why do you think novak cant play a lot of mins? despite his def numbers, he's top 3 worst defender in the league, and he forces you to change your matchups. what he provides offensively is dependent on ball movement and can be nulled easily because he cant dribble.

in what world is chandler a better offensive player than melo is an offensive player? chandler is having a terrible season while melo is having a good season 26 or 28ppg on 45% while grabbing close to 9rpg.

any stat that says felton is doing anything this year should be disregarded, let alone say hes having more impact than kyrie irving (who btw had a bad season).

btw dice: youre right, DJ has been a saviour for the bulls. idc what his +/- is because with him on the team, they keep winning.

basketball is a team sport, any stat that tries to paint the whole pic will nevr ever be anything other than an arbitrary number.

[DanTown8587]

The reason DJ has a bad +/- is that when he first got to Chicago, he had some terrible numbers in low minutes (a tough thing to overcome in +/- evaluation)

Pre Deng Trade (12 games):
349 minutes
29.1 minutes
-36 on/off
-3 average
10.2 points
6.1 assists
.394 FG%
.346 3pt%

Post Deng Trade (47 games)
1442 minutes
30.7 minutes
+134 on/off
+3.1 average
16.2 points
4.9 assists
.429 FG%
.433 3pt%

[jinxed]

RPM ranks Raymond Felton as the 31st best PG in the NBA on a per minute basis and we've spent 4 pages of people complaining how the stat is BS because it rates him too high!! It rates him even behind his own back up Pablo Prigioni.

31st best PG in the league! The travesty! What nonsense! How dare Raymond Felton be in the top 40 point guards!

[jinxed]

Prime Cougar,

You have literally misunderstood nearly everything about this stat..

in what world is chandler a better offensive player than melo is an offensive player?

The stat doesn't say anything like that at all. It says Melo is a very good offensive player and Chandler is an average offensive player.

every time novak steps on the floor, the raptors put him on the worst offensive player on the other team. this also forces another guy to guard a player that he probably shouldn't ( this also forces one of derozan or amir to cover a small forward.). of course his defensive numbers dont look bad.

The stat is based on how the TEAM plays defense while Novak is on the floor. So Novak is NOT hurting his team's defense when he is on the floor.

any stat that says felton is doing anything this year should be disregarded, let alone say hes having more impact than kyrie irving (who btw had a bad season).

This stat says Felton is the 31st best PG in the NBA, is that really so unbelievable to you?