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vanhowell wrote:The Cavs without Lebron will not even pose a threat in the East. The Heat on the other hand even without Lebron is still a threat to make a little noise and upset some teams in the Playoffs.


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I realize your logic, but I do not get your math. I would be more surprised at the heat being better than the cavs than I would be the magic being better than the heat. How are
You guys so awesome without the best player in the game?
Chris bosh got diminished to a roll player for your teams success, and it didn't work last year! So you assume he returns to form of his Toronto days? Dafawk?


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heat4life wrote:

SmoothKobra wrote:

heat4life wrote:Nothing tells me that the Heat would not make it to the NBA Finals again - after 4 straight seasons - with the same core and the additions of McBob and Granger. The Heat beat up the East on their way to the finals last season.

The Cavs still need lots of questions answered. For all the Wade health crap people keep bringing up, Love and Irving have not been any healthier in their short careers. Defensively, the Cavs need more than just Lebron. Who has shown they can do it when it counts? Is Mike Miller going to have another healthy season? How about Verajao? He's been injury prone. Dion Waiters has nice talent but he couldn't play nice offensively with Irving. It was a struggle to run the offense. Can they resolve those issues? Cavs need more depth. Where is the depth?

Lots of questions if you ask me.

The defense and injury issues are legitimate. But the Cavs are definitely deeper than Miami ever was. Waiters is more talented than anyone they've had outside the Big 3. Tristan will thrive as a role player too.

Regardless, depth is still a question mark. Cavs have yet to play a game. Miami with their depth went to 4 NBA finals. Right now there are a bunch of names on paper.

I remember last season people saying Indiana had better depth than Miami. You saw how that worked out for them. Cleveland is going to learn that names on paper are meaningless unless there is true chemistry between those players. Miami dealt with that on their first season with the Big 3.

This is why contending teams love to sign veteran/older players because they are easier to incorporate into a winning situation. Young players usually have to buy into this mentality. This is why Lebron wants Ray Allen, Mike Miller, James Jones... to speed up the process.

Indiana lost because Miami had more star power. Not because of role players. But if we do want to talk about role players, the Cavs absolutely have better ones than Miami ever did. Waiters has major talent and could potentially make an all star game at some future point in his career. Can't say that for anyone outside of Miami's big 3 during their stint.

Experience is nice...but it doesn't trump talent. Ask Pat Riley if he'd rather have James Jones or Dion Waiters.

We should revisit this post at the end of the season. Arguing hypotheticals is cringeworthy. Let's see how this season goes first. The truth is, neither team is the same as last years. There is no acurate way of answering this question without diluting your response with bias in either direction. I know that the dog days of offeseason are upon us but come on people, RealGM is better than the 1000th Cavs vs. Heat thread.

Laimbeer wrote:Which would have given LeBron a better chance of winning the East? With the Cavs, assuming Love is there. Or if he was still with the Heat?

I said Cavs.

Key thing for me is really that I think the Heatles got their back broken by the Spurs. Had it been a close battle and LeBron chosen to stay, they'd have come back absolutely hungry and on a mission. They knew though that they were on the downward side of their peak together, and the Spurs made it crystal clear that it wasn't close between the two teams. They'd be much more likely to crumble going forward than this new Cavs team that's full of home and energy.

Run DLC wrote:If the Cavs plays at least 60% of the kind of defense Miami did in 2012/13, then It's easily the Cavs. The Cavs will be a better rebounding team than the Heat ever were in the last four years, and they'll probably be just as good offensively. The only question mark will be their defensive scheme.

I remember saying the spurs would wipe out the heat if Kawhi stepped up. And I was right. I will now say that there is even more pressure for Lebron to win a ring in Cleveland when it just isn't possible.

People don't get that Lebron is going to have to work a lot harder on the cavs. There is no wade to fall back on and look to when things get tough. There is no other championship caliber player. And you also have a 1st year NBA coach. The cavs season has the possibility of being a disaster. They will probably retool the roster on the fly...but I'll guarantee that a team with Dion waiters and Anderson verajeao is not winning a championship.

KobeKenobi wrote:

Run DLC wrote:If the Cavs plays at least 60% of the kind of defense Miami did in 2012/13, then It's easily the Cavs. The Cavs will be a better rebounding team than the Heat ever were in the last four years, and they'll probably be just as good offensively. The only question mark will be their defensive scheme.

I remember saying the spurs would wipe out the heat if Kawhi stepped up. And I was right. I will now say that there is even more pressure for Lebron to win a ring in Cleveland when it just isn't possible.

People don't get that Lebron is going to have to work a lot harder on the cavs. There is no wade to fall back on and look to when things get tough. There is no other championship caliber player. And you also have a 1st year NBA coach. The cavs season has the possibility of being a disaster. They will probably retool the roster on the fly...but I'll guarantee that a team with Dion waiters and Anderson verajeao is not winning a championship.

Lebron has to work much harder on defense, for sure.
But on this cavs team, he has plenty of help on the other end.

kyrie and love can get buckets, man. Both are vastly better shooters than their counterparts in MIA. Both averaged over 20 points and 26 points respectively last season. One is 22 and the other 25, hard to imagine them not getting better. Along with Miller, they have some of the best spacing in the game and its not even really all that close. Now lets compare fourth options for a minute. Waiters >> chalmers and can be relied on to score in bunches. Not sure where LeBron cant "fall back" on any of these guys.

although defensively they might not be as good, the rebounding will be unreal. Varajaeo and Thompson are both above average in that respect, and love is one of the best in the game. LeBron is a good rebounder as well.

Their one true weakness, and I think might be the one thing keeping them from winning a championship, is a lack of a rim protector. If Haywood can step in and play 15 min or so of quality backup ball like he is capable, or they can convince okafor to come on board, they will be unstoppable.

^ Yup Brendon Haywood and Okafor are the answer to the Cavs being "unstoppable"

lolololololololololol

Think about what you just said man.

Why does everyone forget that the Cavs somehow managed to be 15th overall in D last year? I think adding Lebron along with the natural growth of players finally getting a taste of winning basketball can push them into the top 10.

Irving for 82 games > Wade for 50
Love > Bosh
Varejao > Anderson
Marion (if signed) > Battier

Obviously it may take a season for them to become accustomed to each other and hit their stride - but they have a better roster of players than Miami, and they have players on the upside of their career, rather than the down.

Even if LeBron doesn't win a championship this year, he will be poised for the next 3 or 4 years minimum to contend.

If he had stayed in Miami with a resigned Wade and Bosh, they may have had an outside chance this year, but then he faced either 3 or 4 years with no cap flexibility and a broken down Wade taking up a huge chunk of cap or moving on and being a year behind where he will be with the Cavs in terms of building a dynasty.

This was definitely the right time for him to move on.

Heat aren't a threat to do anything except maybe win 42 games or so and lose in the 1st round. Wade is washed up and sits out at least a third of the regular season. Bosh is clearly inferior to Love.

Heat role players are all old too, whereas Cavs' depth is better and younger. If we're talking 2011-2013 Heat here, they have a very reasonable case.

But that team is gone and the Cavs are easily better than the Heat would be with LeBron now. Just look how pathetic every non-LeBron Heat player was in the Finals this year.

jpengland wrote:Irving for 82 games > Wade for 50
Love > Bosh
Varejao > Anderson
Marion (if signed) > Battier

I think unsigned Marion is still > Battier was last year

SmoothKobra wrote:

heat4life wrote:

SmoothKobra wrote:
The defense and injury issues are legitimate. But the Cavs are definitely deeper than Miami ever was. Waiters is more talented than anyone they've had outside the Big 3. Tristan will thrive as a role player too.

Regardless, depth is still a question mark. Cavs have yet to play a game. Miami with their depth went to 4 NBA finals. Right now there are a bunch of names on paper.

I remember last season people saying Indiana had better depth than Miami. You saw how that worked out for them. Cleveland is going to learn that names on paper are meaningless unless there is true chemistry between those players. Miami dealt with that on their first season with the Big 3.

This is why contending teams love to sign veteran/older players because they are easier to incorporate into a winning situation. Young players usually have to buy into this mentality. This is why Lebron wants Ray Allen, Mike Miller, James Jones... to speed up the process.

Indiana lost because Miami had more star power. Not because of role players. But if we do want to talk about role players, the Cavs absolutely have better ones than Miami ever did. Waiters has major talent and could potentially make an all star game at some future point in his career. Can't say that for anyone outside of Miami's big 3 during their stint.

Experience is nice...but it doesn't trump talent. Ask Pat Riley if he'd rather have James Jones or Dion Waiters.

This way of thinking is so flawed. So. Michael Beasley has more talent than Waiters, what does that mean?

Yes, talent matters but only talent that meets BBIQ. This is why Beasley is playing for his career at this juncture.
Waiters needs to show that still. And James Jones - the guy The Cavs are counting on for depth - was not part or our regular rotation the past four seasons so comparing him to Waiters to make your point is absurd.

Also, if you think Norris Cole defense on Stephenson, Andersen defense on Hibbert or West, Allen's timely offense did not help the Big 3 in the Indiana series, you know nothing about basketball. Collective BBIQ beat the Pacers led by the talent of our stars. Before the series, everyone was pounding on how much more talented and younger Indiana was. What happened? The top talent matters but the game is 5-on-5, not 5-on3. You'll learn that now.

The Heat only won 54-games last season. Their defense slipped out of the top-10.

The wildcard is all Wade.

With a healthy Wade able to give something close to 100% on BOTH sides of the floor the Heat get the nod, but without that Wade they're not even better than the '08/'09 and '09/'10 Cavs teams.

Team chemistry and playoff experience are factors, but not for long...

te887848 wrote:Heat aren't a threat to do anything except maybe win 42 games or so and lose in the 1st round. Wade is washed up and sits out at least a third of the regular season. Bosh is clearly inferior to Love.

Heat role players are all old too, whereas Cavs' depth is better and younger. If we're talking 2011-2013 Heat here, they have a very reasonable case.

But that team is gone and the Cavs are easily better than the Heat would be with LeBron now. Just look how pathetic every non-LeBron Heat player was in the Finals this year.

Lebron wasn't great either and was owned by Leonard. Lebron did get a lot of empty stats though so que the stat guys.

JonFromVA wrote:The Heat only won 54-games last season. Their defense slipped out of the top-10.

The wildcard is all Wade.

With a healthy Wade able to give something close to 100% on BOTH sides of the floor the Heat get the nod, but without that Wade they're not even better than the '08/'09 and '09/'10 Cavs teams.

Team chemistry and playoff experience are factors, but not for long...

Playoff experience matters big time. The cavs would be a 1st to 2nd round exit in the west. Its only because they are in the east that they have a chance of getting to the conference finals.

heat4life wrote:This way of thinking is so flawed. So. Michael Beasley has more talent than Waiters, what does that mean?

Please. Beasley is a pot head who stopped caring about improving his game once he started cashing NBA pay checks. He doesn't apply himself at all. If you were given the choice between Waiters and Beasley, you'd take Waiters every time. I know Riley would.

Yes, talent matters but only talent that meets BBIQ. This is why Beasley is playing for his career at this juncture. Waiters needs to show that still.

Again, Beasley is a loser pothead that doesn't care. BBIQ isn't some magical potion that only select players can have. Waiters has shown more heart in 2 years than I've ever seen from Beasley.

And James Jones - the guy The Cavs are counting on for depth - was not part or our regular rotation the past four seasons so comparing him to Waiters to make your point is absurd.

I just threw out a name in James Jones. Mike Miller, Cole, Chalmers, you can pretty throw out any rotation perimeter player (or anyone outside the Big 3 for that matter) Waiters is clearly more talented than any of them.

Also, if you think Norris Cole defense on Stephenson, Andersen defense on Hibbert or West, Allen's timely offense did not help the Big 3 in the Indiana series, you know nothing about basketball.

It was largely irrelevant. Replace Miami's mediocre role players with any other NBA team's mediocre role players and you'll get the same result. Plenty of NBA guys can look great hitting open shots next to 3 stars.

Collective BBIQ beat the Pacers led by the talent of our stars. Before the series, everyone was pounding on how much more talented and younger Indiana was. What happened? The top talent matters but the game is 5-on-5, not 5-on3. You'll learn that now.

No, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade led Miami past Indiana. The role players came along for the ride, getting easy shots and more time to rest their legs along the way.

LBJVirus218 wrote:Why does everyone forget that the Cavs somehow managed to be 15th overall in D last year? I think adding Lebron along with the natural growth of players finally getting a taste of winning basketball can push them into the top 10.

They managed to be 15th overall under, Mike Brown. Brown isn't a good coach, but he's a coach who focuses on defense, and he's a decent defensive head coach. Blatt is an offense type of head coach. Mark my words, Cavs are going to be worse defensively.

KobeKenobi wrote:

JonFromVA wrote:The Heat only won 54-games last season. Their defense slipped out of the top-10.

The wildcard is all Wade.

With a healthy Wade able to give something close to 100% on BOTH sides of the floor the Heat get the nod, but without that Wade they're not even better than the '08/'09 and '09/'10 Cavs teams.

Team chemistry and playoff experience are factors, but not for long...

Playoff experience matters big time. The cavs would be a 1st to 2nd round exit in the west. Its only because they are in the east that they have a chance of getting to the conference finals.

Sure they could but they could also win the west but they aren't in the west so we will never know.

SmoothKobra wrote:

heat4life wrote:This way of thinking is so flawed. So. Michael Beasley has more talent than Waiters, what does that mean?

Please. Beasley is a pot head who stopped caring about improving his game once he started cashing NBA pay checks. He doesn't apply himself at all. If you were given the choice between Waiters and Beasley, you'd take Waiters every time. I know Riley would.

Yes, talent matters but only talent that meets BBIQ. This is why Beasley is playing for his career at this juncture. Waiters needs to show that still.

Again, Beasley is a loser pothead that doesn't care. BBIQ isn't some magical potion that only select players can have. Waiters has shown more heart in 2 years than I've ever seen from Beasley.

And James Jones - the guy The Cavs are counting on for depth - was not part or our regular rotation the past four seasons so comparing him to Waiters to make your point is absurd.

I just threw out a name in James Jones. Mike Miller, Cole, Chalmers, you can pretty throw out any rotation perimeter player (or anyone outside the Big 3 for that matter) Waiters is clearly more talented than any of them.

Also, if you think Norris Cole defense on Stephenson, Andersen defense on Hibbert or West, Allen's timely offense did not help the Big 3 in the Indiana series, you know nothing about basketball.

It was largely irrelevant. Replace Miami's mediocre role players with any other NBA team's mediocre role players and you'll get the same result. Plenty of NBA guys can look great hitting open shots next to 3 stars.

Collective BBIQ beat the Pacers led by the talent of our stars. Before the series, everyone was pounding on how much more talented and younger Indiana was. What happened? The top talent matters but the game is 5-on-5, not 5-on3. You'll learn that now.

No, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade led Miami past Indiana. The role players came along for the ride, getting easy shots and more time to rest their legs along the way.

Where did I say Beasley was better than Waiters? I get now that you are lacking on the reading comprehension department so sustaining an intelligent conversation with you is pointless at this point.

In your eyes, Waiters is better than everyone on the Heat, he already posses the BBIQ of a Ray Allen and playoff experience is overrated... Ok, got it.

heat4life wrote:

SmoothKobra wrote:

heat4life wrote:This way of thinking is so flawed. So. Michael Beasley has more talent than Waiters, what does that mean?

Please. Beasley is a pot head who stopped caring about improving his game once he started cashing NBA pay checks. He doesn't apply himself at all. If you were given the choice between Waiters and Beasley, you'd take Waiters every time. I know Riley would.

Yes, talent matters but only talent that meets BBIQ. This is why Beasley is playing for his career at this juncture. Waiters needs to show that still.

Again, Beasley is a loser pothead that doesn't care. BBIQ isn't some magical potion that only select players can have. Waiters has shown more heart in 2 years than I've ever seen from Beasley.

And James Jones - the guy The Cavs are counting on for depth - was not part or our regular rotation the past four seasons so comparing him to Waiters to make your point is absurd.

I just threw out a name in James Jones. Mike Miller, Cole, Chalmers, you can pretty throw out any rotation perimeter player (or anyone outside the Big 3 for that matter) Waiters is clearly more talented than any of them.

Also, if you think Norris Cole defense on Stephenson, Andersen defense on Hibbert or West, Allen's timely offense did not help the Big 3 in the Indiana series, you know nothing about basketball.

It was largely irrelevant. Replace Miami's mediocre role players with any other NBA team's mediocre role players and you'll get the same result. Plenty of NBA guys can look great hitting open shots next to 3 stars.

Collective BBIQ beat the Pacers led by the talent of our stars. Before the series, everyone was pounding on how much more talented and younger Indiana was. What happened? The top talent matters but the game is 5-on-5, not 5-on3. You'll learn that now.

No, LeBron James, Chris Bosh, and Dwyane Wade led Miami past Indiana. The role players came along for the ride, getting easy shots and more time to rest their legs along the way.

Where did I say Beasley was better than Waiters? I get now that you are lacking on the reading comprehension department so sustaining an intelligent conversation with you is pointless at this point.

In your eyes, Waiters is better than everyone on the Heat, he already posses the BBIQ of a Ray Allen and playoff experience is overrated... Ok, got it.

Well that was an easy debate. Isn't that hard to see how Waiters is better than anyone not named James, Bosh, or Wade from last year's Miami team.