Better team this season= Utah Jazz or Sacramento Kings?

[King Baller]

I see way to much emphasis on last season. The Kings changed out 10 players! I give the Jazz an edge the first half of the season. The Kings will come on strong and win out as the season goes along. The Kings are deeper, more experienced and they have the best player.

SF88, you know George Karl is coaching the Kings, right?

[sdballer]

Jazz.

Players wise it's almost the same but coaching gives Utah the edge.

Wait, what?

[teerfour+40LG]

The Jazz have no point guard and no bench. This goes to the Kings easily.

[Jkam31]

Saying that adding koufos and Belinelli is a minor move cause there rotation players is false.
You have to look who there replacing. Koufos is replacing possibly the worst back up PF/C last year in Landry. While Belinelli is replacing a guy who was a 0 and had a season for the ages in a bad way. The upgrade from Belinelli/KK from Stauskas/Landry is monumental those guys wernt just 0s on the court they were negatives.

Now if rondo can play at an average level (which it looks like he will) than it gets even better. This means Collison comes off the bench where he would replacing another negative player from last year in McCallum.
Look at the improvement on the bench McCallum,Stauskas,Landry to Collison,Belinelli,Koufos

I'm more than a little surprised that so many people in this thread think that this is so close.

Last year the Jazz won 38 games, the Kings won 29. By SRS the Jazz (+0.71) were nearly 4 points better than the Kings (-3.07). By comparison (by this measure) the Jazz were about as much better than the Kings as the Hawks (+4.75) were better than the Jazz. If this thread were a Hawks vs Jazz thread, we all know how well that would go over.

In addition to this, the Jazz are a young team that is almost certain to take another jump up. They won 38 games after starting the year 6-25. They played over .500 ball for the last 2/3 of the season and ended the year playing the last 30 games like a 50 win team. It's reasonable to think that they could take another significant leap up into the high 40s or even low 50s based upon all the evidence in place.

The Kings, meanwhile, added Rondo and the rookie WCS as the only serious additions. The rest of their moves are simply rotation players. Rondo was a disaster last year and there is no discernible evidence of him having a positive impact on a team at any time in the last 3 years. He also is known for being a prima donna and being very difficult to manage in the way he interacts with the team and coaching staff. Cousins, who is the primary basis for any pro-Sacramento argument, is commonly known as the biggest knucklehead in the league despite his enormous physical talents.

So here is the question for those making the arguments for the Kings: where is the improvement coming from and how much of it will we see? Is this a team that you expect to win 40 games? 45? Or do you think its more like 35 games and that the Jazz will actually regress from their final record last season? If you think they will will more than 40, how can you have any confidence? They have not done so in the last decade and are mired as one of the most dysfunctional franchises in the league. The Jazz, meanwhile, are near the top in terms of stability and cohesion.

It wouldn't be the strangest thing in the world if Sacramento outperformed Utah this season, but if you are betting on it, I don't know how any reasonable person would consider taking Sacramento, all things considered. In fact, one wouldn't, since Vegas is predicting the Jazz to be 10 wins better.

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[Jkam31]

You're underestimating Collisions injury. The fall off from Collison to McCullum is huge espically at an important position. Basically going from a top 18 pg to a PF that should be a 12th man on the team. Add that to Corbin coachibg the team and your 2 best player missing games.

1) Injuries/Illness: Cousins only player 59 games last year. Given that he is very far and away their best player, that absence proved very significant. Collison also played very well last year, but was only able to play in 45 games.

2) Coaching: Last year the team juggled three coaches. The Kings are set to start the year with a proven veteran coach.

3) Additions: Kings fans are enthusiastic about the new additions to the team. Koufos, Belinelli, WCS as well as a myriad of x factor players ranging from household names (Rondo) to relative unknowns (Curry) will bring needed depth the team has sorely missed for years. Butler is also known as a great locker room leader. During their heyday in the early 00's, Kings were a great team due to depth, not a reliance on 3-4 players.

4) Experience: The Jazz are certainly an intriguing young team, but they are still developing. The Kings, on the other hand, have numerous players entering their primes, and have made several veteran additions with playoff experience.


Certainly you have every right to disagree, but your tone is unnecessarily disrespectful. I believe in a forum like RealGM, where different viewpoints are welcome and nothing is at stake, respecting the opinions of others is as important than defending your own opinion effectively.

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful, but it's always funner when arguments have a little teeth in them

I appreciate that you actually addressed my points, unlike many of your compatriots. Kudos for that.

I'll respond briefly below:

1) Every team has injuries. Cousins is the only one who's absence was particularly painful, though Collison hurt as well. I don't see last season's team being particularly beset by them. You will have players go down this year and it will hurt your team. The only real argument here is that the timing of DMC's injury was particularly bad as the team was off to a solid start and his absence led to Malone's firing which sort of derailed the season. Still, there's no proof that all those things wouldn't have happened anyway and the Kings were largely the same team they had been the 3 years previous.

2) This is the simplest and best point. Karl could be an upgrade and if a turn around DOES happen, it will largely be due to his influence. Still, he is obviously not on the same page as Cousins (at least from what we've seen) and he does not have a team that fits the style he likes to play. We'll see, but this is the most valid reason to believe.

3) Koufos, Belinelli and WCS are supposed to transform them from a 29 win team to a playoff team? I like the moves and they could help, but there isn't a headline move that should really take them up a level. WCS is a rookie. He can't be counted on for much this year. These are the types of marginal moves that a team makes to go from 56 to 59 wins. If you're trying to go from 29 to 40, it takes something more substantial.

4) This one is the hardest to buy. Every team has bottom-of-the-roster guys who have been around and experienced high stakes basketball on successful teams. It's a nice story when a team makes the leap, how the veterans really mentored the young players and blah blah blah, but it's really just window dressing. What matters is your best players, the core of the team. If you're looking at the core of the Kings team, it is a Cousins/Gay foundation with a supporting cast of Collison and maybe McLemore. There is a possibility that one or more of the WCS, Bellinelli, and Koufous might join them this year if they are able to bear a larger load than they did at previous stops. Cousins has never played in a playoff game. Gay (7 career playoff games) has proven to be a net negative on the teams he has played on as evidenced by their getting better after he left. Those are your top two players and they are no more veteran than the Jazz' best players. Rondo is a possible X-factor but he has been so toxic lately that he was essentially sent home during the playoffs last year for his behavior. Until he proves otherwise, that's who he is. The core of this team is not a "proven" or "experienced" group of guys. Hard to argue otherwise.


None of this is to say that it's impossible that the Kings could leap forward this year. The 13-14 Suns were a team that no one expected anything from who vastly out performed expectations. It happens. But the case for the Kings is not a strong one. The baseline of expectancy, derived from last year's team, is weak and the improvements added to it aren't compelling either. At least not compared to the Jazz, who did much more last year and have probably improved more upon that baseline as well. Just can't see how this is a real argument.

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[mvpshaq32]

What I want to know is if people tink the Kings will eclipse 30 wins. seems like a gimme bet from vegas

[the throg]

i know it was a pre-season game but boogie and rondo had a big game vs. spurs..i think the kentucky konnection was kicking in..

[NBAfan3024]

What I want to know is if people tink the Kings will eclipse 30 wins. seems like a gimme bet from vegas

Depends on cousins impact


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[Revived]

Jazz.

Players wise it's almost the same but coaching gives Utah the edge.

Wait, what?

Snyder > snake

[NBAfan3024]

rooting for Gobert big time now i've picked him for my fantasy team ha

[King Baller]

Jazz.

Players wise it's almost the same but coaching gives Utah the edge.

Wait, what?

Snyder > snake

1142/775 > 38/44

[510TWSS]

Jazz. Healthier than last year with Burks and a full year of Gobert may get the Jazz into the playoff picture. Solid team they built there, I'm a real big fan of Favors. If he can continue to improve he could be a solid #2 option.

[Daddy 801]

Wait, what?

Snyder > snake

1142/775 > 38/44

As a Jazz fan I have to agree it's absurd to be calling Snyder a better coach already. Thing is, I think he will be and I'm glad we have him. But, he has to prove much more than he has so far to he considered a better coach.



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[Catchall]

Jazz look like they're treading water at the PG spot. Raul Neto reminds me a bit of a young Earl Watson so far. Trey Burke is essentially the same player as before, except that he's not trying to do as much. That said, he's the starter for now. I think the Jazz need Alec Burks to play regular productive minutes at the 1, or they're going to have to make a move.

[jazzfan1971]

Snyder seems like an amazing coach. But, then he followed up Corbin. Anyone would probably look amazing.

[babyjax13]

I think Sacramento will be better. Our point guard situation is just awful, and we have to gel with a major player out all year (Exum) and a major player that wasn't playing when we were good last year (Burks) being reinserted into the lineup. We are younger, and we don't have a star on the level of Cousins. And at this point, Gay might be a better player than Hayward. I still think we will be more successful over the next 3 years, though.

[erudite23]

The thing that isn't getting enough play in this thread is the difference between the two franchises.

Sacramento is one of the 3 most dysfunctional teams in the league that has a very well deserved reputation for self sabotage. Utah is the polar opposite with a solid foundation built around sound business principles and continuity.

This matters.

[erudite23]

Saying that adding koufos and Belinelli is a minor move cause there rotation players is false.
You have to look who there replacing. Koufos is replacing possibly the worst back up PF/C last year in Landry. While Belinelli is replacing a guy who was a 0 and had a season for the ages in a bad way. The upgrade from Belinelli/KK from Stauskas/Landry is monumental those guys wernt just 0s on the court they were negatives.

Now if rondo can play at an average level (which it looks like he will) than it gets even better. This means Collison comes off the bench where he would replacing another negative player from last year in McCallum.

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Landry used to be a top tier backup as well. He was a big part of the GS squad before the Kings brought him in. Things change and rotation players can look dramatically better or worse in different systems with different players around them.

Bellineli was a scrap heap pickup for the Spurs who they rehabilitated and put in a position for success.

Again, I like both moves. But it's flawed thinking to expect both players to come in and be what they were at previous stops. So much of it is in the way they are deployed. But even best case, it should only add 3-5 wins to the bottom line.

[reapaman]

This is super tough one. The Jazz have some good pieces, strong defensive potential, looks to be a cohesive unit and the organization overall is stable even if over-conservative. The problem is that the Jazz are unbalanced and have too many guys that play best with the ball in their hands or need touches to get going (which usually one or two of the main contributors will suffer and under-perform each game because of this), no alpha dog on offense or clear leader, weak bench, lack spacing and outside shooting (what else is new?), and alf (aka trey burke) is still on the team and likely will be the starting pg which means lots of over-dibbling, broken plays, many ill-advised missed shots, and little defense.

The kings on the other hand have an alpha dog on offense. They have a distributor (judging Rondo by last year doesn't count since that was the first time he has played with heavy play calling which contradicts his whole playing style) and there is balance in their line up. Decent bench and while their defense likely won't be great, it can still be pretty good. Their main problem is that ... they are the kings. You just have this feeling things will go wrong. No need to go further with that.

What happened last season especially at the end of the season when team like the Jazz typically over-achieve, doesn't matter. If most things go right for both teams ... I see the kings being able to get the 7th or 8th seed while I can't see the Jazz get any higher than the 10th seed. I personally hope that is not true since I'm a Jazz fan and want them to finally start ascending up the ranks, but I don't see them making the playoffs this year.

[Gomagic44]

I have the Jazz slightly. Better team play wins it for them.


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