2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 2

PeptoKlepto · Post #141 » by **PeptoKlepto** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:22 am

fromthetop321 wrote:There needs to be allot more respect for Lebron in this thread.

He's in almost everyone's top 3 or 4. What does "a lot more respect" look like?

Ballerhogger · Post #142 » by **Ballerhogger** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:27 am

Definelty helps a lebrons case. Wow.

WinisKing · Post #143 » by **WinisKing** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:29 am

Lelbron just needs to go on his usual February form to round off the year and get the Cavs back in groove for the PO. Still a great chance for that 5th MVP.

Ballerhogger · Post #144 » by **Ballerhogger** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:32 am

Aldridge good god man you suck.

Post #145 » by **-Sammy-** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:37 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
His percentages are still all comparable to what he was in his prime. He's just not getting the same amount of volume.

No, they're not; his per-36 numbers this year are 19 and 8, which is down from 24 and 10 per-36 two seasons ago. His PER is down, too.

FUN FACT: Parker, Green, and Gasol's per-36 numbers are all also down this season.

Hogwash. I'm not a fan of this tactic. Don't tear down your players' supporting cast to prop up a single player. It's not a good look.

His PER is down a mere two points from two years ago. His rebounding rate is slightly down as well. But his TS% is up from 53% to 56%, assist rate slightly up, and his blocking rate is up. He also has a better WS/48 and BPM than he did two years ago.

The biggest factor in the drop off in production is the fact that his usage rate has gone down from 30 to about 24, not because he can no longer put up the volume stats he's used to putting up.

Regardless, Leonard has an outstanding cast around him. Considering they're +10.7 with him sitting on the bench, don't even think about tearing them down just prop him up as the MVP. Not gonna happen.

That's not what I was doing at all. Everything I stated was true, just as your statement that they're +10 with him out is true. Now, does the fact that all his teammates' numbers are worse mean they aren't a good team? No-- and that's my point. My citation of out-of-context stats doesn't validate the ridiculous notion that the Spurs aren't a good team any more than your citation of out-of-context stats validates the ridiculous notion that they're better with Kawhi on the bench.

Leonard's not the MVP, and I'm not trying to angle him for it; he's probably 4th behind Harden, Westbrook, and LeBron. But the notion that the Spurs are actually better when he's not in the game is silly; you don't even need to watch the Spurs to know it's silly, but if you have watched them, you know that it's downright insulting to the forum's collective intelligence to even make the assertion.

Hero · Post #146 » by **Hero** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 4:00 am

The gap between Houston and OKC is way too large for anyone to have Russ over Harden at this point.

If the Cavs could improve their record LeBron would have a chance.

WinisKing · Post #147 » by **WinisKing** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 4:08 am

Hero wrote:The gap between Houston and OKC is way too large for anyone to have Russ over Harden at this point.

If the Cavs could improve their record LeBron would have a chance.

If Cavs can get their defense to NBA level for the 2nd half of the season and win 60+ with Lebron playing the way he has, and Houston continuing to plummet in the standings, I don't see how this isn't a MVP for Lebron. His stats are great, albeit the usual atrocious FT shooting :banghead:

PeptoKlepto · Post #148 » by **PeptoKlepto** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 4:16 am

BombsquadSammy wrote:
PeptoKlepto wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
No, they're not; his per-36 numbers this year are 19 and 8, which is down from 24 and 10 per-36 two seasons ago. His PER is down, too.

FUN FACT: Parker, Green, and Gasol's per-36 numbers are all also down this season.

Hogwash. I'm not a fan of this tactic. Don't tear down your players' supporting cast to prop up a single player. It's not a good look.

His PER is down a mere two points from two years ago. His rebounding rate is slightly down as well. But his TS% is up from 53% to 56%, assist rate slightly up, and his blocking rate is up. He also has a better WS/48 and BPM than he did two years ago.

The biggest factor in the drop off in production is the fact that his usage rate has gone down from 30 to about 24, not because he can no longer put up the volume stats he's used to putting up.

Regardless, Leonard has an outstanding cast around him. Considering they're +10.7 with him sitting on the bench, don't even think about tearing them down just prop him up as the MVP. Not gonna happen.

That's not what I was doing at all. Everything I stated was true, just as your statement that they're +10 with him out is true. Now, does the fact that all his teammates' numbers are worse mean they aren't a good team? No-- and that's my point. My citation of out-of-context stats doesn't validate the ridiculous notion that the Spurs aren't a good team any more than your citation of out-of-context stats validates the ridiculous notion that they're better with Kawhi on the bench.

Leonard's not the MVP, and I'm not trying to angle him for it; he's probably 4th behind Harden, Westbrook, and LeBron. But the notion that the Spurs are actually better when he's not in the game is silly; you don't even need to watch the Spurs to know it's silly, but if you have watched them, you know that it's downright insulting to the forum's collective intelligence to even make the assertion.

At no point was my point that the Spurs are better without Kawhi. I'd have to be a fool to make that assertion, and I agree that he deserves to be in the MVP conversation. My entire point was that the difference in +/- between he and the other MVP candidates is a red flag that deserves notice and should be discussed/talked about.

In fact, I currently have him 6th in my MVP rankings, so +/- isn't an end all for me. Just another reference point.

Post #149 » by **-Sammy-** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 4:47 am

PeptoKlepto wrote:
BombsquadSammy wrote:
That's not what I was doing at all. Everything I stated was true, just as your statement that they're +10 with him out is true. Now, does the fact that all his teammates' numbers are worse mean they aren't a good team? No-- and that's my point. My citation of out-of-context stats doesn't validate the ridiculous notion that the Spurs aren't a good team any more than your citation of out-of-context stats validates the ridiculous notion that they're better with Kawhi on the bench.

Leonard's not the MVP, and I'm not trying to angle him for it; he's probably 4th behind Harden, Westbrook, and LeBron. But the notion that the Spurs are actually better when he's not in the game is silly; you don't even need to watch the Spurs to know it's silly, but if you have watched them, you know that it's downright insulting to the forum's collective intelligence to even make the assertion.

At no point was my point that the Spurs are better without Kawhi. I'd have to be a fool to make that assertion, and I agree that he deserves to be in the MVP conversation. My entire point was that the difference in +/- between he and the other MVP candidates is a red flag that deserves notice and should be discussed/talked about.

In fact, I currently have him 6th in my MVP rankings, so +/- isn't an end all for me. Just another reference point.

Fair enough!

Phreak50 · Post #150 » by **Phreak50** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 4:50 am

The +\- stat is a heap of crap.

Harden was -14 or so on their win the other day and Leonard has been down in wins where he was clearly the best player on the court.

All these so called advanced stats simply don't tell the story.

Starboy · Post #151 » by **Starboy** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 5:16 am

So one game (that the Cavs won without Lebron) overturns a month of mediocre play by them?

RCM88x · Post #152 » by **RCM88x** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 5:24 am

Starboy wrote:So one game (that the Cavs won without Lebron) overturns a month of mediocre play by them?

"Won without LeBron"

Just quit.

Starboy · Post #153 » by **Starboy** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 6:51 am

I'm sorry my post doesn't fit with your agenda. What was the score when Lebron fouled out?

K_chile22 · Post #154 » by **K_chile22** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 6:59 am

Starboy wrote:I'm sorry my post doesn't fit with your agenda. What was the score when Lebron fouled out?

That's really not fair at all. Likely wouldn't have been in OT at all had it not been for LeBron.

_Game7_ · Post #155 » by **_Game7_** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 7:36 am

Starboy wrote:I'm sorry my post doesn't fit with your agenda.

The irony.... Oh.

michaelm · Post #156 » by **michaelm** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 7:41 am

Starboy wrote:I'm sorry my post doesn't fit with your agenda. What was the score when Lebron fouled out?

Everyone has an agenda.

TacoLord · Post #157 » by **TacoLord** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 8:10 am

Phreak50 wrote:The +\- stat is a heap of crap.

Harden was -14 or so on their win the other day and Leonard has been down in wins where he was clearly the best player on the court.

All these so called advanced stats simply don't tell the story.

+/- is not an "advanced stat."

Starboy · Post #158 » by **Starboy** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 2:23 pm

K_chile22 wrote:
Starboy wrote:I'm sorry my post doesn't fit with your agenda. What was the score when Lebron fouled out?

That's really not fair at all. Likely wouldn't have been in OT at all had it not been for LeBron.

It's just as fair as Curry not getting credit for playing well yesterday despite losing. I didn't see any posts saying that Curry is moving up the MVP ladder and he didn't have teammates going 39/12 etc.

Lebron is still exactly where he was last week in the MVP race. One game doesn't change a month of losing to average teams at an abnormally high rate. They are too talented for that.

jg77 · Post #159 » by **jg77** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:25 pm

Starboy wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:
Starboy wrote:I'm sorry my post doesn't fit with your agenda. What was the score when Lebron fouled out?

That's really not fair at all. Likely wouldn't have been in OT at all had it not been for LeBron.

It's just as fair as Curry not getting credit for playing well yesterday despite losing. I didn't see any posts saying that Curry is moving up the MVP ladder and he didn't have teammates going 39/12 etc.

Lebron is still exactly where he was last week in the MVP race. One game doesn't change a month of losing to average teams at an abnormally high rate. They are too talented for that.

Agreed. Curry just had a phenomenal week of basketball and it hasn't really changed his position in the MVP standings. LeBron and the Cavs have been playing horrible basketball and now with one game he's back in the race? No. Harden and Westbrook been putting up the same type of stat lines as he did last night all season.

bmurph128 · Post #160 » by **bmurph128** » Tue Feb 7, 2017 3:36 pm

jg77 wrote:
Starboy wrote:
K_chile22 wrote:That's really not fair at all. Likely wouldn't have been in OT at all had it not been for LeBron.

It's just as fair as Curry not getting credit for playing well yesterday despite losing. I didn't see any posts saying that Curry is moving up the MVP ladder and he didn't have teammates going 39/12 etc.

Lebron is still exactly where he was last week in the MVP race. One game doesn't change a month of losing to average teams at an abnormally high rate. They are too talented for that.

Agreed. Curry just had a phenomenal week of basketball and it hasn't really changed his position in the MVP standings. LeBron and the Cavs have been playing horrible basketball and now with one game he's back in the race? No. Harden and Westbrook been putting up the same type of stat lines as he did last night all season.

He's always been in the race - and as you said, the Cavs have been playing horrible basketball and putting up similar stat lines to them. Imagine what happens when the Cavs actually start playing well

Who will win MVP?