Phil Jackson on Kobe: The GOAT measure is championships

[G35]

Spoiler:

You've gone too meta for this board.

GOAT isn't really measured by rings but it is a form of evidence. I can't imagine making a case for a GOAT if they never helped a team win a championship.

On this, we agree completely. To my way of thinking, saying that rings aren't ANY kind of factor in determining GOATs is as wrongheaded as saying that rings are the ONLY factor. What i'm calling for is balance in weighing factors.

Correct. I mean it was common sense to look it at that way in the old days. Simply because Russell won so many while Wilt was the more dominant player. Then KAJ comes in as the best player even going through a championship drought.

Jordan was declared the GOAT after he won 3 rings because of his per game stats while carrying his team, while KAJ had him on rings and MVPs. Truly the GOAT is more about how the individual plays the game of basketball. I don't know how people conflated a team award with an individual achievement to the degree they have.

Value of a player is how well the individual plays the game...and...how the extent to which he helps his team win.

Stats do not win games.

Do they not track how many games a team wins when ______ scores 50 points or gets a triple double. Some players have a successful record, some do not.

Stats/production ≠ winning

Winning = winning.

Really, its all in what you value...winning or performance. There has always been a debate that some players would rather look good and lose than look bad and win. Then you have those that look good and win...but not always. How much a player contributes to winning is undefined but you know it when you see it.

But if you focus on the individual you are leaving out the contributions of a lot of people:

Owner
GM
Coach(s)
Trainer(s)
Fans

At any one point in the season any one of these elements besides the player can affect the outcome of the game. That means winning and losing is a much harder variable to control in comparison to individual performance.

In my estimation, that makes winning much harder to do...then to win titles is even harder. It takes incorporating what the individual into a team situation, over a long period of time (the regular season) then progressing through the top levels of competition (the playoffs) and then beating whoever survived their gauntlet from the opposite conference. All this while withstanding distractions, media, fan criticism, media criticism, over reactions/hot takes, second guessing, injuries, and internal strife.

Yeah I think that is harder to accomplish than individual production......

[Salieri]

Read on Twitter

The great ones know what it's really all about

He only says that because he has 11 as a head coach. But here's the thing: Nobody thinks Phil Jackson is the greatest head coach of all-time and nobody thinks Bill Russell is the greatest player of all time. So.... no.

I've seen the Bill Russell argument used in this thread as a "gotcha" moment against Phil Jackson's words.

For what it's worth, these are Phil's thoughts on the matter:

Watch on YouTube

So yeah, Phil considers Bill Russell as his personal GOAT. You might disagree with him and you have every right to do so, but do not think he's talking out of his anus. He is consistent with what he has said before.

Now. Phil Jackson, as every other basketball celebrity, has been interviewed plenty of times and I'm sure he has contradicted himself tons of times, maybe even more than others because his taste for trolling is well known. I won't be the one blaming him for that, though. I know I would have contradicted myself at least as much as him if I had been recorded thousands of times.

Is his tweet a way of propping himself because he knows no other coach has as many rings as him? Maybe. But don't bring the Bill Russell argument to refute him because he has publicly said Bill is his GOAT. Honest or not, right or wrong, those are his words.

[Joker]

All time great with rings is different than a role player with rings. When will this tired, lazy hack argument end?

I would agree with this. Can't count non-star players. So Pippen and Havlicek are better than Kobe then.

[Hoopzilla]

Fisher tied with Kobe on the GOAT list.. got it.

Sorry, you have to be an all time great to get a foot in the door of the GOAT conversation. If you weren't an all time great, you were riding their coat tails. Maybe Fisher can get some love on an "all time great role player" list. If you weren't a perennial all star, the driving force and focal point of your teams, you don't get into the conversation. Fisher was never an all star or focal point of his team, so it is a joke to even mention his name and a very poor attempt to troll.

[LeBird]

i don't know why people get sensitive if they put kobe in top 20, that's still good. pau was a beast and should have won fmvp as well, that team was fun to watch.

because he is top 5-8 AT LEAST so calling him top 20 shows blatant disrespect. The legends that played the game consider him one of the greatest though so I guess random poster's opinion on this doesnt matter.

Kobe is more like top 15. Doesn't crack into the single digits though.

Lol and Bird should never be in the same sentence.

You're right, Bird is a much better player.

[Warren G]

Are we sure they even gave rings/trophies out back then? Most guys had to work 2 jobs, there were no three point specialist because there was no three point line.

Didn't they just give them a loaf of bread and a pat on the back?

[SlowPaced]

The coach with the most rings in NBA history says rings are the GOAT measure? What a shocker.

Phil Jackson is blowing his own horn via Kobe here.

[spicy6]

Fisher tied with Kobe on the GOAT list.. got it.

didnt realize fish had 2 finals mvps, 18 all star appearances, 11 all nba first team selections, 9 first team defense selections, multiple scoring titles, and an mvp award... got it.

[levon]

The fact that this thread has 8 pages in a day shows how much Phil still gets to people.

[SeattleJazzFan]

The fact that this thread has 8 pages in a day shows how much Phil still gets to people.

he's a big deal in the basketball world. when he makes such an asinine comment, people are going to show up.

[Lala870]

shout out to phil for that hilarious "momba" tweet and KCP for making Kobe walk out of the arena last night LMFAO

[CoffeeCakez]

i don't know why people get sensitive if they put kobe in top 20, that's still good. pau was a beast and should have won fmvp as well, that team was fun to watch.

because he is top 5-8 AT LEAST so calling him top 20 shows blatant disrespect. The legends that played the game consider him one of the greatest though so I guess random poster's opinion on this doesnt matter.

Kobe is more like top 15. Doesn't crack into the single digits though.

Lol and Bird should never be in the same sentence.

You're right, Bird is a much better player.

I know I may potentially be getting into a discussion with a lebron homer with that username but here goes anyway:

where would you rank kobe all time exactly and list some of the players above him

[OdomFan]

You don't know much about basketball or common sense if you can't differentiate leading a team to titles and being a part of another mans team.

[Else_where]

Hey Momba, momba Italiano!

[3Diamantidis]

Jackson implied with his tweet that kobe has been the GOAT for the lakers. Not generally.

[Hobo4President]

where would you rank kobe all time exactly and list some of the players above him

Different poster but these guys I’d definitely put above Kobe:
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Lebron

[hoopsfan2424]

first, i'm surprised by how bad phil's grammar is. misspelling mamba and, even worse, the plural form of jersey.

second, of COURSE phil thinks rings are the measure of greatness. he wants everyone to think he's the greatest coach ever. it's self-serving of him to go by that standard.

third, vanessa looked healthy last night.

[CoffeeCakez]

where would you rank kobe all time exactly and list some of the players above him

Different poster but these guys I’d definitely put above Kobe:
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Lebron

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt are definitely top 4 locks. But a case for kobe over any of the other players on your list can be made.

for example, with larry bird:
kobe has 5 rings (we'll make it 4 since he was option 1 or 1a for 4 of the rings) to larry's 3 rings
kobe had better longevity (20 seasons to 13)
kobe played in more all star games (18 to 12)
kobe has 11 all nba first team selections to bird's 9
kobe has 9 all nba 1st defensive selections and bird has none
more all time points scored, more assists all time...etc.

The same comparisons can be done for the remaining players but that would take a lot of time

[Hobo4President]

where would you rank kobe all time exactly and list some of the players above him

Different poster but these guys I’d definitely put above Kobe:
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Lebron

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt are definitely top 4 locks. But a case for kobe over any of the other players on your list can be made.

for example, with larry bird:
kobe has 5 rings (we'll make it 4 since he was option 1 or 1a for 4 of the rings) to larry's 3 rings
kobe had better longevity (20 seasons to 13)
kobe played in more all star games (18 to 12)
kobe has 11 all nba first team selections to bird's 9
kobe has 9 all nba 1st defensive selections and bird has none
more all time points scored, more assists all time...etc.

The same comparisons can be done for the remaining players but that would take a lot of time

I could do the same with stats to support them all being better players than Kobe but ditto, it’ll take too long.

[CoffeeCakez]

Different poster but these guys I’d definitely put above Kobe:
Duncan
Shaq
Wilt
Russell
Jordan
Bird
Magic
Hakeem
Kareem
Lebron

MJ, Kareem, Magic, Wilt are definitely top 4 locks. But a case for kobe over any of the other players on your list can be made.

for example, with larry bird:
kobe has 5 rings (we'll make it 4 since he was option 1 or 1a for 4 of the rings) to larry's 3 rings
kobe had better longevity (20 seasons to 13)
kobe played in more all star games (18 to 12)
kobe has 11 all nba first team selections to bird's 9
kobe has 9 all nba 1st defensive selections and bird has none
more all time points scored, more assists all time...etc.

The same comparisons can be done for the remaining players but that would take a lot of time

I could do the same with stats to support them all being better players than Kobe but ditto, it’ll take too long.

I'll respect your opinion but take bird for example, what stats puts him above kobe other than his 3 finals mvps to kobe's 2?
kobe has achieved much more throughout his career.