The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[KqWIN]

Kinda off topic, but I don't like the "elite role player" thing. You shouldn't be relegated to a role player because you are a low usage player.

[LakersSoul]

I think what Mitchell is doing is nothing short of incredible. How many people had that guy pegged as the next Mo Williams, etc? The fact that we're even discussing the Jazz potentially making the playoffs is insane. Considering they lost their "star" player, and their premier big man goes down with an injury, the way Donovan has gotten the team to buy into him as the #1 option & gotten them to rally around him speaks volumes about his future.

On paper, the Lakers should be smoking the Jazz in the standings, so why aren't they? People keep coming up with excuses for their blunders. I was real high on Ingram coming into the League. When he was dialed in, I thought he was exhilarating at Duke, and I was one of the few who thought he should have gone #1 over Simmons. I've since eaten crow on that matter, but I still think Ingram has what it takes to become a superstar. I just really can't pinpoint what it is that is keeping him from making a solid jump. He looks disinterested out there a lot of the time. Does he need to spend more time in the weight room? I'd like to see him use that length & first step a lot more.

What are you talking about?

DM was hot during the draft workouts. He was estimated to go between #10 and #20 in a deep draft. I dont know anyone saying he is the next Mo Williams. He shot well and had athleticism but the big question was his size at 6'3" for a guard.

As for the Lakers smoking the Jazz, again what are you talking about? People are not talking about the Jazz and the playoffs since they only have 17 wins on the year. Many people were predicting the Jazz make the playoffs even with Hayward out and the loss of Gobert has only been 1 month while the Lakers are playing the most minutes by the youngest age and they only trail the Jazz by 2 wins.

As for Ingram, before commenting you should review what Ingram is doing as he has been one of the Lakers key players this season and especially the last few weeks.

[Crazy-Canuck]

...

[PLO]

If you two are both claiming that Ben’s rookie season on par with Kidd’s best season, I don’t think it’s everyone else who hasn’t seen Kidd play...

Lets take 02-03 where Kid averaged 18.7 PPG 6.3 RPG and 8.9 Apg on 41.4 & FG with a TS% of 46.5 and 2.2 Steals in 37.4 Minutes

So 17/8/7 with 2 steals vs 18/6/9 with 2 steals. I would say its pretty close. And i would like to note i did not agree with Bens Season so far beening as good as Prime Kidd. I just said i would be really happy if Ben became a 6'11 Kidd.. With his two way Impact and 3pt Shot after 30..

You mean the season Kidd dragged his team to the finals with a BPM of 6.9 and an on/off per 100 possessions of +11.0? If the 76ers had that player, they’d be a hell of a lot better than 19-20.

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Kidd is a top 50 player ever. Arguing that Simmons is on that level already is one of the more absurd claims I’ve read on RealGM.

Edit: for reference, Simmons has a BPM of 2.8 and an on/off per 100 of +1.5. These are great marks for a rookie, but worlds away from what prime Kidd was doing.

So you're taking BPM and on/off as the be all and end all, infallible advanced stats with which to measure a player's contribution? Just asking for clarity. You wouldn't happen to be a Russell Westbrook fan would you?

You're also saying that 18.7 PPG, 6.3 APG, 8.9 APG is worlds away from 16.9 PPG 8.2 RPG, 7.3 APG. Again, for clarity.

And you're also saying that a PG who can't shoot from distance but who can get anywhere on the floor, is a passing savant and is elite on defense is worlds away from Jason Kidd?

[GrandTheftRondo]

For the people whose entire sphere of basketball knowledge revolves around scoring and its associated stats, which seems to be the majority of RealGM, they will just look at Ball and shrug. I said this would happen before he was drafted, just didn't realize to this extent. I thought on a basketball forum there would be more people who can see beyond scoring. Perhaps if he wasn't a Laker and played for, say, the Spurs or a small market team that people felt indifferent about.

Like I said when he was at UCLA, his greatest attribute is his ability to change the identity of the team while being a low usage player himself. There is no comparison to him. He's a new branch. Last year the Lakers had the worst ball movement in the league (there was a stat that tracked passes per game and they were near the bottom). Insert Lonzo and now they're near the top of the league. Funny how that has happened at every level Ball has played at. You can't teach that. In that sense, yes he's absolutely transcendent the way he immediately changes the identity to a more winning style of basketball. Culture matters in team sports.

I'm good with Lonzo flying under the radar. It seems he's starting to settle in and get comfortable. You can see the confidence growing and the shot is dropping. I'm not the least bit concerned with his scoring. He's doing what he was selected to do. The scoring will come around. Lonzo is an amplifier. Put better players around and he'll look better. He couldn't care less about scoring.

Good lord, this is just a desperate attempt to paint Ball as something.

So you draft a guy at pick 2 because he makes your team pass more?

Again you’re making him sound like he’s 1986 Larry Bird.

Maybe the Lakers are moving the ball more because they’re now two years into Walton’s tenure. Maybe his coaching is finally getting to the younger guys as a whole? He did after all come from Golden State where ball movement is preached.

[3toheadmelo]

he's back.

Watch on YouTube

[GrandTheftRondo]

If you put it in incredibly archaic terms then sure. Oscar Robertson and Magic Johnson were lightyears better as rookies in all the fields you're comparing them in.

Ben Simmons is not a good scorer, period. So saying he is an all around player and including his PPG basically infers he is. He has high PPG because he takes a lot of shots, thats really it.

I dont think he is an elite defensive player either...


If we're talking all around play, how is he even better than Blake Griffin? Griffin might not be the defender, but he was an actual legitimate scorer as a rookie. They're both passers albeit Simmons is a better one and both rebounders albeit Griffin is a better one.


The standard here just seems really arbitrary, he's all around one of the best rookies yet he has a significant hole in his game? There are rookies like Bill Walton and Tim Duncan who were literally superstars their first seasons.

The dude also averages nearly 4 TO's a game to his 7.3 assists. That's 1.87 ast/TO ratio. Compared to Ball with 7.1/2.9 = 2.63. I think he's spamming the pass in scenarios that it's not there, and that's kind of concerning for a PG.

I don't know, Sixers fans and org are adamant he's the PG forever, but I still think it's gimmicky. If they figure it out, it's gonna be with a more conventional 1 who can shoot. The advantage of big dudes that can create is the 1-3, 1-4 PnR (think Steph/KD, Lebron/Kyrie). That's crazy unstoppable, especially with a big on the short roll that can collapse the defense and kick out to shooters (Simmons). I think if Fultz had panned out as expected, he'd ultimately be the 1. But I know I'm gonna take heat for that so whatever.

Edit: Looks like he leads the league in touches with 100.5. That's gotta be lower, with shorter time per possession. Make him make those reads off the ball more and watch his turnovers drop.

The thing with Simmons is that his game is still flawed right now. That’s fine for a rookie though.

He can’t shoot so teams are pretty much just playing him for the pass like they did with a Rondo when he was in Boston. Unlike with Rondo, Simmons is surrounded by a horrible bench and only one real offensive option in Embiid (who is also turnover prone) so their offence can go real stagnant at times and Simmons has no way to create for others.

He handles the ball a ton and can try to make the risky pass too often so it’s not surprising that his turnover numbers are bad.

I still think he’s an incredibly gifted passer and ball handler for his height. It would be ludicrous for Simmons to not play point guard in my opinion. Barring drastic shooting improvements, how can you seriously play him off the ball?

I’d like to see Simmons used more in the post. He could pass out of double teams down there and I think he’s got Magic like potential to operate from down there.

I read a post earlier talking about how Simmons has been clutch. While he’s been better at attacking lately in the clutch, I’m seriously confused by those stats. I’ve watched multiple Sixers games where Simmons has stood in the corner in the clutch and done nothing because he can’t shoot. When he has had the ball in a number of games, defences have played off him and forced him to pound the ball for near the entirety of the shot clock before he either shoots a bad shot, turns it over or dumps it to his poor teammate who is being smothered by their defender late in the clock. The dump to his teammate has been his favourite move at times and it’s why their offence has completely fallen apart down the stretch at times.

The above paragraph to me sums up why Simmons desperately needs to develop some sort of jumper. If he does, he’s going to be a legit monster.

Despite his flaws this season, he’s still my ROY. Much of his play has been amazing for a rookie.

[PLO]

Lets take 02-03 where Kid averaged 18.7 PPG 6.3 RPG and 8.9 Apg on 41.4 & FG with a TS% of 46.5 and 2.2 Steals in 37.4 Minutes

So 17/8/7 with 2 steals vs 18/6/9 with 2 steals. I would say its pretty close. And i would like to note i did not agree with Bens Season so far beening as good as Prime Kidd. I just said i would be really happy if Ben became a 6'11 Kidd.. With his two way Impact and 3pt Shot after 30..

You mean the season Kidd dragged his team to the finals with a BPM of 6.9 and an on/off per 100 possessions of +11.0? If the 76ers had that player, they’d be a hell of a lot better than 19-20.

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Kidd is a top 50 player ever. Arguing that Simmons is on that level already is one of the more absurd claims I’ve read on RealGM.

Edit: for reference, Simmons has a BPM of 2.8 and an on/off per 100 of +1.5. These are great marks for a rookie, but worlds away from what prime Kidd was doing.

So you're taking BPM and on/off as the be all and end all, infallible advanced stats with which to measure a player's contribution? Just asking for clarity. You wouldn't happen to be a Russell Westbrook fan would you?

You're also saying that 18.7 PPG, 6.3 APG, 8.9 APG is worlds away from 16.9 PPG 8.2 RPG, 7.3 APG. Again, for clarity.

And you're also saying that a PG who can't shoot from distance but who can get anywhere on the floor, is a passing savant and is elite on defense is worlds away from Jason Kidd?

This is also pretty rich coming from a Celtics forum mod - the place where the Tatum = Durant/George Gervin/Paul Pierce/is a lock for the HOF comments are rampant and no mods bat an eyelid over them.

[Hedda Gambler]

As for the Lakers smoking the Jazz, again what are you talking about? People are not talking about the Jazz and the playoffs since they only have 17 wins on the year.

The last time I checked, about a week or so ago, the Jazz had a 54% chance of getting into the play offs according to 538. Don`t let our insanely tough schedule in december fool you.

[Mr Puddles]

he's back.

Watch on YouTube

Josh Jackson has been solid in 2018:

16 PPG
6 RPG
3 AST
47% FG
46% 3FG
73% FT

Extremely small sample size ofcourse, but then again people had been labeling him, Lonzo and others busts already based on their first 2 months in the league... He's still a bit reckless at times and needs to get stronger but he's showing signs that he's adjusting to the game.

[LakersSoul]

As for the Lakers smoking the Jazz, again what are you talking about? People are not talking about the Jazz and the playoffs since they only have 17 wins on the year.

The last time I checked, about a week or so ago, the Jazz had a 54% chance of getting into the play offs according to 538. Don`t let our insanely tough schedule in december fool you.

Dont let math or Mitchell's play fool you. The Jazz are 8 games under .500 after going 5-3 in their last 8 games. You dont need to talk playoffs until you start sniffing the .500 mark.

[nurseryc]

Amongst rookies, Simmons ranks first in minutes, rebounds, assists and steals per game, second in scoring and second in field goal percentage of rookies that shoot at least five times per game. He also leads rookies in double doubles (18) and triple doubles (4).

League-wide, Simmons is sixth in assists, seventh in steals, fourth among all NBA guards in defensive rating (103) and fourth in assist percentage (32.6).

In the history of the NBA, only seven players have ever averaged at least 16 points, eight rebounds, seven assists and 1.5 steals per game. Their names: Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, LeBron James, Magic Johnson, Grant Hill, Russell Westbrook and Fat Lever. None of them were rookies.

[Kolkmania]

I still think he’s an incredibly gifted passer and ball handler for his height. It would be ludicrous for Simmons to not play point guard in my opinion. Barring drastic shooting improvements, how can you seriously play him off the ball?

Pair him with a dynamic shot creator who forces defenders to step up in P&R situations. He has tremendous size and leaping abilities which would make him a lob target as a roller, when the ball handler can get him the ball as a roller in a 4 on 3 situations (like Draymond Green) it's almost a guaranteed good look.

[GrandTheftRondo]

I still think he’s an incredibly gifted passer and ball handler for his height. It would be ludicrous for Simmons to not play point guard in my opinion. Barring drastic shooting improvements, how can you seriously play him off the ball?

Pair him with a dynamic shot creator who forces defenders to step up in P&R situations. He has tremendous size and leaping abilities which would make him a lob target as a roller, when the ball handler can get him the ball as a roller in a 4 on 3 situations (like Draymond Green) it's almost a guaranteed good look.

Yeah but I think he’s too talented in general to be a part time ball handler.

If he’s still throwing turnovers like this in 18 months then yeah Philly should reassess. But I think right now he’s taking on a hell of a burden for a rookie which is negatively affecting his turnover numbers. The idea was to pair him with Fultz but we all know that that’s a disaster right now.

[Kolkmania]

I still think he’s an incredibly gifted passer and ball handler for his height. It would be ludicrous for Simmons to not play point guard in my opinion. Barring drastic shooting improvements, how can you seriously play him off the ball?

Pair him with a dynamic shot creator who forces defenders to step up in P&R situations. He has tremendous size and leaping abilities which would make him a lob target as a roller, when the ball handler can get him the ball as a roller in a 4 on 3 situations (like Draymond Green) it's almost a guaranteed good look.

Yeah but I think he’s too talented in general to be a part time ball handler.

If he’s still throwing turnovers like this in 18 months then yeah Philly should reassess. But I think right now he’s taking on a hell of a burden for a rookie which is negatively affecting his turnover numbers. The idea was to pair him with Fultz but we all know that that’s a disaster right now.

I have no problems with the turnovers at this point, he should get as many opportunities as possible to learn from his mistakes.

I was just responding to your question regarding being off ball. Because I do think there's potentially massive value in him being off ball as well, because he reads and reacts to things as the floor as any young player I've seen. There should be a healthy balance, because he obviously has difficulties creating an efficient shot consistently. Without a reliable jumpshot this will probably be the case for his entire career.

Yep, Fultz was ideal. But having a healthy rookie would be too much to ask for as a Sixers fan haha.

[SmartWentCrazy]

Lets take 02-03 where Kid averaged 18.7 PPG 6.3 RPG and 8.9 Apg on 41.4 & FG with a TS% of 46.5 and 2.2 Steals in 37.4 Minutes

So 17/8/7 with 2 steals vs 18/6/9 with 2 steals. I would say its pretty close. And i would like to note i did not agree with Bens Season so far beening as good as Prime Kidd. I just said i would be really happy if Ben became a 6'11 Kidd.. With his two way Impact and 3pt Shot after 30..

You mean the season Kidd dragged his team to the finals with a BPM of 6.9 and an on/off per 100 possessions of +11.0? If the 76ers had that player, they’d be a hell of a lot better than 19-20.

Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous. Kidd is a top 50 player ever. Arguing that Simmons is on that level already is one of the more absurd claims I’ve read on RealGM.

Edit: for reference, Simmons has a BPM of 2.8 and an on/off per 100 of +1.5. These are great marks for a rookie, but worlds away from what prime Kidd was doing.

So you're taking BPM and on/off as the be all and end all, infallible advanced stats with which to measure a player's contribution? Just asking for clarity. You wouldn't happen to be a Russell Westbrook fan would you?

You're also saying that 18.7 PPG, 6.3 APG, 8.9 APG is worlds away from 16.9 PPG 8.2 RPG, 7.3 APG. Again, for clarity.

And you're also saying that a PG who can't shoot from distance but who can get anywhere on the floor, is a passing savant and is elite on defense is worlds away from Jason Kidd?

Yes, I’m overweighting advanced stats relative to counting stats. Pretty much everyone unanimously agrees that they’re a better tool to evaluate players across time. Care to offer an opinion on why they’re invalid?

Russell Westbrook is irrelevant, by the way, so I don’t really know (or care) about what point you’re trying to make.

Jason Kidd was a top 50 player ever and a top 5 PG ever. If a player came onto your team performing at Kidd’s peak, why is Philly below .500?

[SmartWentCrazy]

This is also pretty rich coming from a Celtics forum mod - the place where the Tatum = Durant/George Gervin/Paul Pierce/is a lock for the HOF comments are rampant and no mods bat an eyelid over them.

What does this have to do with anything?

Also, speaking of pretty rich, your board ain’t much better. Hell, someone posted this and then preceded to say that Simmons was on par with peak Jason Kidd!

Not sure which sets of fans have the worst circle-jerk re their rookies: Lakers or the Celtics.

Irony is a funny thing...

[PLO]

This is also pretty rich coming from a Celtics forum mod - the place where the Tatum = Durant/George Gervin/Paul Pierce/is a lock for the HOF comments are rampant and no mods bat an eyelid over them.

What does this have to do with anything?

Also, speaking of pretty rich, your board ain’t much better. Hell, someone posted this and then preceded to say that Simmons was on par with peak Jason Kidd!

Not sure which sets of fans have the worst circle-jerk re their rookies: Lakers or the Celtics.

Irony is a funny thing...

It is a funny thing especially when Celtics fans think Jayson Tatum should be ROTY and earlier this season (in terms of advanced numbers), you have analytics guys like Kevin Pelton (a noted non 76ers fan) writing articles as to Why Ben Simmons Might Be The Best Rookie Ever

It is ironic that you've jumped on some posts on the main board that have a lot more plausibility to them than, for example, claiming that Jayson Tatum is the new Doctor J, posts of which is pretty rife on the actual board you are a dedicated mod on. Still, however, at least the mods on the Celtics forum are representative of Celtics fans as a whole, got that green-eyed myopia thing going on.

[SmartWentCrazy]

This is also pretty rich coming from a Celtics forum mod - the place where the Tatum = Durant/George Gervin/Paul Pierce/is a lock for the HOF comments are rampant and no mods bat an eyelid over them.

What does this have to do with anything?

Also, speaking of pretty rich, your board ain’t much better. Hell, someone posted this and then preceded to say that Simmons was on par with peak Jason Kidd!

Not sure which sets of fans have the worst circle-jerk re their rookies: Lakers or the Celtics.

Irony is a funny thing...

It is a funny thing especially when Celtics fans think Jayson Tatum should be ROTY and earlier this season (in terms of advanced numbers), you have analytics guys like Kevin Pelton (a noted non 76ers fan) writing articles as to Why Ben Simmons Might Be The Best Rookie Ever

It is ironic that you've jumped on some posts on the main board that have a lot more plausibility to them than, for example, claiming that Jayson Tatum is the new Doctor J, posts of which is pretty rife on the actual board you are a dedicated mod on. Still, however, at least the mods on the Celtics forum are representative of Celtics fans as a whole, got that green-eyed myopia thing going on.

Ben has regressed significantly since then. I don’t really get your point.

Also, here’s what your doing logically:

Some Celtics fans think ridiculous thing X therefore you think ridiculous thing X and your wrong!

Here’s what I did logically:

You said thing X and then ironic thing Y, that’s funny.

If you want to attack me, do it for things I’ve said and beliefs I’ve espoused. Holding things others have said against me is beyond immature. And your personal attacks are even lamer. Grow up. Until you’ve proven you can have an actual conversation/argument, I’m done responding to your blatant attempts at trolling.

[PLO]

What does this have to do with anything?

Also, speaking of pretty rich, your board ain’t much better. Hell, someone posted this and then preceded to say that Simmons was on par with peak Jason Kidd!



Irony is a funny thing...

It is a funny thing especially when Celtics fans think Jayson Tatum should be ROTY and earlier this season (in terms of advanced numbers), you have analytics guys like Kevin Pelton (a noted non 76ers fan) writing articles as to Why Ben Simmons Might Be The Best Rookie Ever

It is ironic that you've jumped on some posts on the main board that have a lot more plausibility to them than, for example, claiming that Jayson Tatum is the new Doctor J, posts of which is pretty rife on the actual board you are a dedicated mod on. Still, however, at least the mods on the Celtics forum are representative of Celtics fans as a whole, got that green-eyed myopia thing going on.

Ben has regressed significantly since then. I don’t really get your point.

Also, here’s what your doing logically:

Some Celtics fans think ridiculous thing X therefore you think ridiculous thing X and your wrong!

Here’s what I did logically:

You said thing X and then ironic thing Y, that’s funny.

If you want to attack me, do it for things I’ve said and beliefs I’ve espoused. Holding things others have said against me is beyond immature. And your personal attacks are even lamer. Grow up. Until you’ve proven you can have an actual conversation/argument, I’m done responding to your blatant attempts at trolling.

I said that Ben Simmons rookie season is on par with Jason Kidd's best season, which in terms of raw numbers it is. You made the point that Kidd's advanced stats for that season are better, which is a fair point, but even accounting for Simmons dip in December its still arguably one of the best rookie seasons ever. Stylistically they're actually pretty similar players. I think comparing the two is quite OK. Also, you don't see me jump on the main board or on your board and attack you or Celtics fans for making much much much more dubious claims or comparisons vis a vis Jayson Tatum. It was you who decided to attack me in this thread, not the other way around. I also pointed out the fact you haven't pulled up any of your own on your own board for some of these claims about Tatum, but decided to go after a 76ers fan making a much more plausible claim on the main board, which is also true. So you can call that trolling, but me? I just shrug, shake my head and think "Celtics fans".