Most skilled big man: KAJ, Olajuwon, Duncan?

[Baski]

People here are way too harsh for Hakeem, even though he's not my choice. His shooting touvh and footwork is amazing, very few players could do things he regulary did in isolation. He had also very refined post moves - hookshot, fadeaway, up and under.

His quickness helps, but he's extremely skilled player.

Hakeem is the Kobe of bigs, where his sexy moves overshadow everything else about him and give him unearned bumps against his contemporaries.
FTR, like Kobe, he is around top 10 All time. No insult intended.

[Duffman100]

Gotta go with Hakeem. Duncan below him.

KAJ just isn't there yet. But I'd love to see him with a good young teammate.

You're right. Give him 3 years to add a 3pt shot and he'll be the GOAT 75 year old basketball player.

I read it as KAT!!! I was so confused.

[Hroz]

Kareems hook vs Hakeems steam shake

Two iconic plays

Gotta go Hakeem

[rzzzzz]

there are skills and there are skills. i got to think that the big man who LED teams to 2 NCAA titles, a pre-pro Olympic title and 11 NBA titles had skills. nothing as pretty as a sky hook or dream shake, but something.

[dhsilv2]

Hakeem end of career number decline had a lot to do with playing along side Drexler, Barkley, and Pippen.

When he was in Toronto?

He should have retired before Toronto he was 38 years old with a bad back.

Duncan's and Kareem were playing at that age and were broken down as well. Heck timmy couldnt bend his knee the last few years, looked like he was dragging that leg and was far more impactful.

[koogiking]

Kareem

[spacepimp]

When he was in Toronto?

He should have retired before Toronto he was 38 years old with a bad back.

Duncan's and Kareem were playing at that age and were broken down as well. Heck timmy couldnt bend his knee the last few years, looked like he was dragging that leg and was far more impactful.

Duncan numbers was about the same/ Hakeem was hurt like his last 4 years

[dhsilv2]

He should have retired before Toronto he was 38 years old with a bad back.

Duncan's and Kareem were playing at that age and were broken down as well. Heck timmy couldnt bend his knee the last few years, looked like he was dragging that leg and was far more impactful.

Duncan numbers was about the same/ Hakeem was hurt like his last 4 years

Hakeems impact stats had him as an average starter. Duncan's had allstar level impact. Not really close at all.

[Adam Stern]

OFFENSE:
Cap
Dream
Timmy

DEFENSE:
Dream
Timmy
Cap

OVERALL:
Dream

[mudsak]

I didn't grow up watching Kareem, so it's difficult for me to make an opinion regarding him.

My gut tells me to pick Hakeem because he had such a silky-smooth game, and he was so well rounded.

I do think it's really difficult to pick anyone over Duncan though. As a big, the guy literally had no weakness. There was nothing flashy about his game, and he was probably the best-most-boring player in the history of the league. His lack of flash probably makes him the overlooked player in many situations.

[Roddy B for 3]

An argument would require both sides to make a reasonable argument. People confusing Hakeem's atheism with skill is down right absurd in this thread.

I think the one that's confused is you. But hey, I guess you're the intellectual one here and everyone else is wrong.

Hey if you have a point, make it. I don't mind being wrong, but if you're going to try and associate a big man who could move like a guard as being the result of skills, you'll have a hell of an uphill battle to climb. I don't think that's unreasonable. Even notice how great pro athletes are at dancing? Just like with sports, movement is a trait of athleticism. Being graceful, balanced, controlled...it's all an athletic skill.

Knowing where to step makes you faster. Understanding your feet and trusting the rest of your body to do what you want is a skill.

Like a post a few above me complimenting Duncan being able to move somewhere in two steps while most take 6 to go that length.

That's about timing in relation to the defense. About using your weight to push them a little off balance and then knowing the perfect moment to take that step. That's a skill.

Hakeem was such a good dribbler he wouldn't bounce the ball off his foot even though David Robinson was guarding him. Shawn Bradley can do a cross over in an open gym, but Hakeem could do one against David Robinson.

Sure have the abdominal muscles to execute the dribble fast enough to keep it away from DROB is athleticism. But mentally knowing what to do against DROB, and knowing what you can and cannot do, and knowing when to o the things. Those are the skills.

Being able to do is athleticism. Doing is skill.

[dhsilv2]

I think the one that's confused is you. But hey, I guess you're the intellectual one here and everyone else is wrong.

Hey if you have a point, make it. I don't mind being wrong, but if you're going to try and associate a big man who could move like a guard as being the result of skills, you'll have a hell of an uphill battle to climb. I don't think that's unreasonable. Even notice how great pro athletes are at dancing? Just like with sports, movement is a trait of athleticism. Being graceful, balanced, controlled...it's all an athletic skill.

Knowing where to step makes you faster. Understanding your feet and trusting the rest of your body to do what you want is a skill.

Like a post a few above me complimenting Duncan being able to move somewhere in two steps while most take 6 to go that length.

That's about timing in relation to the defense. About using your weight to push them a little off balance and then knowing the perfect moment to take that step. That's a skill.

Hakeem was such a good dribbler he wouldn't bounce the ball off his foot even though David Robinson was guarding him. Shawn Bradley can do a cross over in an open gym, but Hakeem could do one against David Robinson.

Sure have the abdominal muscles to execute the dribble fast enough to keep it away from DROB is athleticism. But mentally knowing what to do against DROB, and knowing what you can and cannot do, and knowing when to o the things. Those are the skills.

Being able to do is athleticism. Doing is skill.

As I've said if ball handling was skill, we'd see more big men with elite handles. They don't exist because the level of coordination and body control you need as a big man is off the charts athletics. Absolutely there is a huge amount of skill there too, but make no mistake big men work hard on ball handling just like anyone else. AD was a point guard in high school before he shot up in height...he kept a LOT of that guard skill...but ball handling? It's just insanely hard to do when you're taller.

[Nazrmohamed]

Before entering the thread I knew Hakeem would get some intangible bump from his flashy post game that expands into his entire skillset. He's easily the least skilled as evidenced by his heavy decline into irrelevance as he aged compared to the other two. He was more dependent on his athleticism than the other two, even though all three were immensely skilled and made use of their athleticism as best they could

Hakeem had sickle cell anemia or something like that that destroyed his joints as he aged. The decline was swift moreso because of that than any level of skill you are attempting to imply. The guy was incredibly skilled. Athleticism can account for maybe one explosive move toward the basket. This guys used an array of inside outside, up and unders, fakes and spins. If that isnt skill to you then I dont know what is. What some of you define as skill can be summed up by shot range. If a guy can hit an assisted shot from half court, half of you believe they are more skilled than a person performing a post up spin off fadeaway. That's how you define it.

My whole life skill was defined as the variety of menauvers one could perform to get themselves a score whilst guarded or even doubled in some cases. VARIETY. Kareem is the most skilled bigman that ever lived and the second was the only guy I ever seen put it on him,Kevin McHale. Kevin sortov reinforces your argument to some extent. Outside of being tall he had literally zero athleticism but used a VARIETY of maneuvers to still get layups in a sea of athletic bigs attempting to spike it. Hakeem was however very athletic but..........

......he could do both ok. It's as simple as that. Lastly we're not spending alot of time talking defense in this thread and I think there's a large skillset being ignored which helps Hakeems argument as well.

[Roddy B for 3]

Hey if you have a point, make it. I don't mind being wrong, but if you're going to try and associate a big man who could move like a guard as being the result of skills, you'll have a hell of an uphill battle to climb. I don't think that's unreasonable. Even notice how great pro athletes are at dancing? Just like with sports, movement is a trait of athleticism. Being graceful, balanced, controlled...it's all an athletic skill.

Knowing where to step makes you faster. Understanding your feet and trusting the rest of your body to do what you want is a skill.

Like a post a few above me complimenting Duncan being able to move somewhere in two steps while most take 6 to go that length.

That's about timing in relation to the defense. About using your weight to push them a little off balance and then knowing the perfect moment to take that step. That's a skill.

Hakeem was such a good dribbler he wouldn't bounce the ball off his foot even though David Robinson was guarding him. Shawn Bradley can do a cross over in an open gym, but Hakeem could do one against David Robinson.

Sure have the abdominal muscles to execute the dribble fast enough to keep it away from DROB is athleticism. But mentally knowing what to do against DROB, and knowing what you can and cannot do, and knowing when to o the things. Those are the skills.

Being able to do is athleticism. Doing is skill.

As I've said if ball handling was skill, we'd see more big men with elite handles. They don't exist because the level of coordination and body control you need as a big man is off the charts athletics. Absolutely there is a huge amount of skill there too, but make no mistake big men work hard on ball handling just like anyone else. AD was a point guard in high school before he shot up in height...he kept a LOT of that guard skill...but ball handling? It's just insanely hard to do when you're taller.

So AD has less ballhandling skill than Mike Conley.

It's harder for bigs AND they don't work as hard.

Mike Conley works on his dribbling more than AD I am sure.

Hakeem was small for a 5.

Skill is what the end result is. AD needs to work harder than Mike Conley to have more skill than Mike Conley, at dribbling.

AND AD dosent work as hard at dribbling as Mike Conley, soooo. Mike Conley has more skill at dribbling than AD.

It's less time efficient for bigs to dribble like Conley, hence they are rarer. Some are excellent dribblers. Dirk could put the ball on the floor against almost anyone FYI.

So idk why we are talking about Davis dribbling btw.

I'm saying a cross over is a skill. Executing it at a high level against higher compitition I more skillfull.

Who is more likely to execute a cross over on DROB 90%athlete, 10% skill or 90% skill 10%.

I think DROB would respect the skill and the athlete dosent have a passing skill level at executing the dribble.

It takes LOOOOOOOOOOOOOW athleticism to execute a cross over.

[Roddy B for 3]

Duncan's and Kareem were playing at that age and were broken down as well. Heck timmy couldnt bend his knee the last few years, looked like he was dragging that leg and was far more impactful.

Duncan numbers was about the same/ Hakeem was hurt like his last 4 years

Hakeems impact stats had him as an average starter. Duncan's had allstar level impact. Not really close at all.

That means we should throw out those impact stats lol

[dhsilv2]

Knowing where to step makes you faster. Understanding your feet and trusting the rest of your body to do what you want is a skill.

Like a post a few above me complimenting Duncan being able to move somewhere in two steps while most take 6 to go that length.

That's about timing in relation to the defense. About using your weight to push them a little off balance and then knowing the perfect moment to take that step. That's a skill.

Hakeem was such a good dribbler he wouldn't bounce the ball off his foot even though David Robinson was guarding him. Shawn Bradley can do a cross over in an open gym, but Hakeem could do one against David Robinson.

Sure have the abdominal muscles to execute the dribble fast enough to keep it away from DROB is athleticism. But mentally knowing what to do against DROB, and knowing what you can and cannot do, and knowing when to o the things. Those are the skills.

Being able to do is athleticism. Doing is skill.

As I've said if ball handling was skill, we'd see more big men with elite handles. They don't exist because the level of coordination and body control you need as a big man is off the charts athletics. Absolutely there is a huge amount of skill there too, but make no mistake big men work hard on ball handling just like anyone else. AD was a point guard in high school before he shot up in height...he kept a LOT of that guard skill...but ball handling? It's just insanely hard to do when you're taller.

So AD has less ballhandling skill than Mike Conley.

It's harder for bigs AND they don't work as hard.

Mike Conley works on his dribbling more than AD I am sure.

Hakeem was small for a 5.

Skill is what the end result is. AD needs to work harder than Mike Conley to have more skill than Mike Conley, at dribbling.

AND AD dosent work as hard at dribbling as Mike Conley, soooo. Mike Conley has more skill at dribbling than AD.

It's less time efficient for bigs to dribble like Conley, hence they are rarer. Some are excellent dribblers. Dirk could put the ball on the floor against almost anyone FYI.

So idk why we are talking about Davis dribbling btw.

I'm saying a cross over is a skill. Executing it at a high level against higher compitition I more skillfull.

Who is more likely to execute a cross over on DROB 90%athlete, 10% skill or 90% skill 10%.

I think DROB would respect the skill and the athlete dosent have a passing skill level at executing the dribble.

It takes LOOOOOOOOOOOOOW athleticism to execute a cross over.

For a 6'10 250 pound man to do a crossover requires a LOT of athleticism. As you get taller and you get heavier the athletic skills exponentially increase. The thing is the "dream shake" wasn't just having handles and a cross over. Duncan could take most big guys off the dribble almost effortlessly and heck he'd lead the break. of course an underrated athlete but not hakeem. The difference of course was that hakeem could spin, change directions, spin, change directions, and then stop on a dime before doing an up and under. The ability to control your movement like that is something most guys will NEVER have, even us short guys.

Back to AD - my point with him was that he was a guard most of his life. He worked on his handle as much as any guard because that's what he was. He got taller and those skills left him because it's harder (not that he can't dribble of course but he can't do it like a guard).

Now this thread is about 3 of the top 15 players of all time. These are all exceptional athletes and insanely skilled guys. There aren't many if any centers who put in more time in the gym, more time studying, or put in more effort to learn the game than these 3. Hakeem was of the group the best athlete. He just had that natural equilibrium, balance, and grace that you're just born being better at. With age and when these guys started to lose their athletic ability, Hakeem was also the guy who dropped off first. This is all of course before we remember how poor hakeem's passing was compared to Duncan or Kareem.

[dhsilv2]

Duncan numbers was about the same/ Hakeem was hurt like his last 4 years

Hakeems impact stats had him as an average starter. Duncan's had allstar level impact. Not really close at all.

That means we should throw out those impact stats lol

Did you watch them? Duncan was still a top tier defender. Hakeem...maybe we should throw them out because he didn't look like a starter to be honest. Though that was some time ago....I'm ok with accepting my memory might not be optimal on what happened in 2002.

[CIN-C-STAR]

[niQ]

Well considering that Abdul-Jabbar had a move that nobody in the entirety of his career could stop, and no one has replicated since, or even tried to replicate, it's KAJ by a mile. But everyone here is going to point to Olajuwon's footwork as being "more skilled".

Watch on YouTube

[Roddy B for 3]

As I've said if ball handling was skill, we'd see more big men with elite handles. They don't exist because the level of coordination and body control you need as a big man is off the charts athletics. Absolutely there is a huge amount of skill there too, but make no mistake big men work hard on ball handling just like anyone else. AD was a point guard in high school before he shot up in height...he kept a LOT of that guard skill...but ball handling? It's just insanely hard to do when you're taller.

So AD has less ballhandling skill than Mike Conley.

It's harder for bigs AND they don't work as hard.

Mike Conley works on his dribbling more than AD I am sure.

Hakeem was small for a 5.

Skill is what the end result is. AD needs to work harder than Mike Conley to have more skill than Mike Conley, at dribbling.

AND AD dosent work as hard at dribbling as Mike Conley, soooo. Mike Conley has more skill at dribbling than AD.

It's less time efficient for bigs to dribble like Conley, hence they are rarer. Some are excellent dribblers. Dirk could put the ball on the floor against almost anyone FYI.

So idk why we are talking about Davis dribbling btw.

I'm saying a cross over is a skill. Executing it at a high level against higher compitition I more skillfull.

Who is more likely to execute a cross over on DROB 90%athlete, 10% skill or 90% skill 10%.

I think DROB would respect the skill and the athlete dosent have a passing skill level at executing the dribble.

It takes LOOOOOOOOOOOOOW athleticism to execute a cross over.

For a 6'10 250 pound man to do a crossover requires a LOT of athleticism. As you get taller and you get heavier the athletic skills exponentially increase. The thing is the "dream shake" wasn't just having handles and a cross over. Duncan could take most big guys off the dribble almost effortlessly and heck he'd lead the break. of course an underrated athlete but not hakeem. The difference of course was that hakeem could spin, change directions, spin, change directions, and then stop on a dime before doing an up and under. The ability to control your movement like that is something most guys will NEVER have, even us short guys.

Back to AD - my point with him was that he was a guard most of his life. He worked on his handle as much as any guard because that's what he was. He got taller and those skills left him because it's harder (not that he can't dribble of course but he can't do it like a guard).

Now this thread is about 3 of the top 15 players of all time. These are all exceptional athletes and insanely skilled guys. There aren't many if any centers who put in more time in the gym, more time studying, or put in more effort to learn the game than these 3. Hakeem was of the group the best athlete. He just had that natural equilibrium, balance, and grace that you're just born being better at. With age and when these guys started to lose their athletic ability, Hakeem was also the guy who dropped off first. This is all of course before we remember how poor hakeem's passing was compared to Duncan or Kareem.

It dosent take much more athleticism to do a cross over than to walk down the street. Doing a cross over at the NBA level takes more athleticism because incredible athletes are playing defense. But doing a cross over takes almost no more athleticism than dribbling between your legs.

But a cross over takes more *skill* than athleticism no matter who you are. You have to k ow what a cross over is. That's the basic skill. K owing what it is and then doing what you want to do. Athleticism is doing it. But a very weak man can dribble a basketball but a guy who dosent know what a cross over is but is an Olympian hockey player can't do a cross over even though he is athletic as heck.