If Lebron is the GOAT then how did he allow younger star players to catch him in rings already in his era?

[LKN]

Magic basically retired by the time Jordan had a contender around him. Bird was broken and our of the league before then. Duncan won all but 1 of his titles before LeBron hit his prime, and KD + Curry had to team up to win more than 1. Curry's solo came when LeBron was playing with superstars like Delly and Shumpert, and Kawhi was a role player the first time he won one.

LeBron's not MJ. He's not as good. He's had great teams for less than MJ did (comparing Love/Irving to Pippen is a lol for us all), but it's not hard to see how he's not on that level anyway.

Magic was not retired. He literally faced Jordan in the finals and lost.

Comparing Love+Kyrie to just Pippen is an lol???

Duncan beat him twice. Curry beat him three times. My point is Lebron didn’t “own” his era despite having plenty of great teams to the extent other greats have like Jordan and Magic for example cause no one in their era won just as much as them during that period.

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.

Not disagreeing with the rest of your post... but Magic absolutely was still prime in 1991. He won the MVP in 1990 and 1991 was a top 4 regular season for him.

It still sucks he had to retire so abruptly.

[guy1]

Magic basically retired by the time Jordan had a contender around him. Bird was broken and our of the league before then. Duncan won all but 1 of his titles before LeBron hit his prime, and KD + Curry had to team up to win more than 1. Curry's solo came when LeBron was playing with superstars like Delly and Shumpert, and Kawhi was a role player the first time he won one.

LeBron's not MJ. He's not as good. He's had great teams for less than MJ did (comparing Love/Irving to Pippen is a lol for us all), but it's not hard to see how he's not on that level anyway.

Magic was not retired. He literally faced Jordan in the finals and lost.

Comparing Love+Kyrie to just Pippen is an lol???

Duncan beat him twice. Curry beat him three times. My point is Lebron didn’t “own” his era despite having plenty of great teams to the extent other greats have like Jordan and Magic for example cause no one in their era won just as much as them during that period.

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.

Are you kidding me right now? You do realize WHY Magic retired right? He was literally the MVP the prior season and 2nd in MVP voting in 91. You’re acting like he retired like Kobe did. Jordan BEAT Magic in the finals, meaning both on contending teams. Not sure why people just act like it doesn’t count for some reason .

And yes how is Love + Kyrie not better then Pippen? It’s 2 all-stars against 1. Even if Pippen is better then both of them by themselves, he’s not better then both together. You’re clearly overrating Pippen. He wasn’t an MVP-level player. There’s no way the Cavs those years would’ve traded both Love and Kyrie for just Pippen.

Curry did beat Lebron 3 times. It’s a fact. Add whatever context you want around it, that’s still what’s happened.

In no time was Tim Duncan ever comparable to Patrick McCaw. He arguably should’ve been finals MVP and he was probably there best player that year.

Jordan losing to Shaq is a blemish for the simple that he would be regarded as higher if he beat him instead.

[The4thHorseman]

2019 Warriors lose four times on their way to the finals, Raptors lose six times.

2018 Warriors lose 5 times on their way to the finals, Cavaliers lose six times on their way to the finals.

2017 Warriors do not lose a single game before the finals, Cavaliers lose one game before the finals.

2016 Warriors lose five games on the way to the finals, Cavaliers lose two games.

2015 Warriors lose three games on the way to the finals, Cavaliers lose two games on the way to the finals.

2014 Spurs lose six games on the way to the finals, Heat lose three games on the way to the finals.

2013 Spurs lose two games on the way to the finals, Heat lose 4 games on the way to the finals.

2012 Thunder lose three games on the way to the finals, Heat lose six games on the way to the finals.

2011 Mavericks lose three games on the way to the finals, Heat lose three games on the way to the finals.

2010 Lakers lose four games on the way to the finals, Celtics lose five games on the way to the finals.

In the last 10 years the east champions have had more losses on their way to the finals then the West champions six times. The West champions have had more losses on their way to the finals three times. Getting through the East is not the cake walk it is often described to be.

In the last 5 years the Warriors have a record of 60-17 in their Conference playoffs, a 78% win percentage equivalent to winning 63 games over the course of an 82 game season. Their record against the East during that time is 17-11, a 61% win percentage equivalent to a 50 win pace over the course of an 82 game season. 2018 is the only year where the East champion fared worse against the Warriors than the Warriors' WCF competitor. In 2016, 2017 and 2019, the East champion did better against the Warriors than any Western team.

The West is full of pretender contenders. The East has had fewer of those, but the idea that the West is a brutal slog and the East is a stroll through the daisies is not accurate.

How many other teams in the East made it to the finals that were not a Lebron superteam.

From your list, from the West we have:

2010 - Kobe/Gasol
2011 - Dirk/Kidd/Terry
2012 - KD/WB/Harden
2013 - Duncan/Manu/Parker
2014 - Duncan/Manu/Parker
2015 - 2019 Curry/Klay/Dray

Its funny but isn't this the "representation and diversity" is better era?

Where was the diversity in the East.......

2012 Bosh missed 9 straight games in the postseason. Played only 16min. in game 1 of the ECSF (missed the next 5) and played in the last 3 of the ECF (Heat were down 3 games to 2) So as you can see there was no superteam that got Miami to the Finals.

2013 Wade avg. 16-4-5 and Bosh 12-7-1 . Same as the postseason the year before, no superteam was needed to get to the Finals.

2014 the same as the 2 previous years, superstar numbers weren't need to get to the Finals.

2015 Love gets hurt in game 4 of the first round and misses the rest of the postseason. Kyrie misses 2 games in the ECF, yet the Cavs still go on to sweep the 60 win Hawks who had HCA. No superteam needed to get to the Finals.

I think you get the picture.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Magic was not retired. He literally faced Jordan in the finals and lost.

Comparing Love+Kyrie to just Pippen is an lol???

Duncan beat him twice. Curry beat him three times. My point is Lebron didn’t “own” his era despite having plenty of great teams to the extent other greats have like Jordan and Magic for example cause no one in their era won just as much as them during that period.

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.

Not disagreeing with the rest of your post... but Magic absolutely was still prime in 1991. He won the MVP in 1990 and 1991 was a top 4 regular season for him.

It still sucks he had to retire so abruptly.

Magic's MVP is pretty controversial as I recall. He was in his 11th season, and his totals were falling. But it wasn't my era, and if people think that was one of Magic's best seasons I'll defer to them.

[XxIronChainzxX]

Magic was not retired. He literally faced Jordan in the finals and lost.

Comparing Love+Kyrie to just Pippen is an lol???

Duncan beat him twice. Curry beat him three times. My point is Lebron didn’t “own” his era despite having plenty of great teams to the extent other greats have like Jordan and Magic for example cause no one in their era won just as much as them during that period.

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.

Are you kidding me right now? You do realize WHY Magic retired right? He was literally the MVP the prior season and 2nd in MVP voting in 91. You’re acting like he retired like Kobe did. Jordan BEAT Magic in the finals, meaning both on contending teams. Not sure why people just act like it doesn’t count for some reason .

And yes how is Love + Kyrie not better then Pippen? It’s 2 all-stars against 1. Even if Pippen is better then both of them by themselves, he’s not better then both together. You’re clearly overrating Pippen. He wasn’t an MVP-level player. There’s no way the Cavs those years would’ve traded both Love and Kyrie for just Pippen.

Curry did beat Lebron 3 times. It’s a fact. Add whatever context you want around it, that’s still what’s happened.

In no time was Tim Duncan ever comparable to Patrick McCaw. He arguably should’ve been finals MVP and he was probably there best player that year.

Jordan losing to Shaq is a blemish for the simple that he would be regarded as higher if he beat him instead.

As I said: I think 1991 Magic was on the tail end of his career and not the MVP caliber player he was seen as reputation-wise (ala old Kobe's all-defence teams).

That's neither here nor there.

Love + Irving, combined, are not with Pippen. As I said, you die on this hill if you want but it's not an arguable case.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. It's why he's got 0 Finals MVPs - he's not even getting the most credit for it on his team. He beat LeBron in the same way that Pippen beat Magic.

If you think Duncan deserves that Finals MVP, agree to disagree.

[guy1]

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.

Are you kidding me right now? You do realize WHY Magic retired right? He was literally the MVP the prior season and 2nd in MVP voting in 91. You’re acting like he retired like Kobe did. Jordan BEAT Magic in the finals, meaning both on contending teams. Not sure why people just act like it doesn’t count for some reason .

And yes how is Love + Kyrie not better then Pippen? It’s 2 all-stars against 1. Even if Pippen is better then both of them by themselves, he’s not better then both together. You’re clearly overrating Pippen. He wasn’t an MVP-level player. There’s no way the Cavs those years would’ve traded both Love and Kyrie for just Pippen.

Curry did beat Lebron 3 times. It’s a fact. Add whatever context you want around it, that’s still what’s happened.

In no time was Tim Duncan ever comparable to Patrick McCaw. He arguably should’ve been finals MVP and he was probably there best player that year.

Jordan losing to Shaq is a blemish for the simple that he would be regarded as higher if he beat him instead.

As I said: I think 1991 Magic was on the tail end of his career and not the MVP caliber player he was seen as reputation-wise (ala old Kobe's all-defence teams).

That's neither here nor there.

Love + Irving, combined, are not with Pippen. As I said, you die on this hill if you want but it's not an arguable case.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. It's why he's got 0 Finals MVPs - he's not even getting the most credit for it on his team. He beat LeBron in the same way that Pippen beat Magic.

If you think Duncan deserves that Finals MVP, agree to disagree.

91 Magic was basically at the stage of his career and seen as 2nd three-peat Jordan or Lebron his last couple years in Cleveland, as in not at his peak but still the best player in the league as long as a guy like prime Jordan wasn’t in the league. He didn’t get to the point your talking about. He probably plays another 3-4 seasons if it wasn’t for an abrupt end.

You didn’t watch Pippen did you?

[XxIronChainzxX]

Are you kidding me right now? You do realize WHY Magic retired right? He was literally the MVP the prior season and 2nd in MVP voting in 91. You’re acting like he retired like Kobe did. Jordan BEAT Magic in the finals, meaning both on contending teams. Not sure why people just act like it doesn’t count for some reason .

And yes how is Love + Kyrie not better then Pippen? It’s 2 all-stars against 1. Even if Pippen is better then both of them by themselves, he’s not better then both together. You’re clearly overrating Pippen. He wasn’t an MVP-level player. There’s no way the Cavs those years would’ve traded both Love and Kyrie for just Pippen.

Curry did beat Lebron 3 times. It’s a fact. Add whatever context you want around it, that’s still what’s happened.

In no time was Tim Duncan ever comparable to Patrick McCaw. He arguably should’ve been finals MVP and he was probably there best player that year.

Jordan losing to Shaq is a blemish for the simple that he would be regarded as higher if he beat him instead.

As I said: I think 1991 Magic was on the tail end of his career and not the MVP caliber player he was seen as reputation-wise (ala old Kobe's all-defence teams).

That's neither here nor there.

Love + Irving, combined, are not with Pippen. As I said, you die on this hill if you want but it's not an arguable case.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. It's why he's got 0 Finals MVPs - he's not even getting the most credit for it on his team. He beat LeBron in the same way that Pippen beat Magic.

If you think Duncan deserves that Finals MVP, agree to disagree.

You didn’t watch Pippen did you?

Did you watch Irving or Love?

[guy1]

As I said: I think 1991 Magic was on the tail end of his career and not the MVP caliber player he was seen as reputation-wise (ala old Kobe's all-defence teams).

That's neither here nor there.

Love + Irving, combined, are not with Pippen. As I said, you die on this hill if you want but it's not an arguable case.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. It's why he's got 0 Finals MVPs - he's not even getting the most credit for it on his team. He beat LeBron in the same way that Pippen beat Magic.

If you think Duncan deserves that Finals MVP, agree to disagree.

You didn’t watch Pippen did you?

Did you watch Irving or Love?

Yup.

FYI - edited my previous post.

[LKN]

Magic retired the year after the '91 Finals. That's not prime Magic by any stretch.

Are you actually suggesting Love + Kyrie equal Pippen? Then, yes, LOL.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. He beat LeBron + trash once, lost once, and then teamed up with KD. Duncan best a young LeBron once, then was an old man by the time they faces each other again. You might as well say Patrick McCaw best LeBron three times by that standard.

Counting that as "beating" LeBron is silly. It's like counting that year MJ lost in the second round to Shaq as a blemish.

Not disagreeing with the rest of your post... but Magic absolutely was still prime in 1991. He won the MVP in 1990 and 1991 was a top 4 regular season for him.

It still sucks he had to retire so abruptly.

Magic's MVP is pretty controversial as I recall. He was in his 11th season, and his totals were falling. But it wasn't my era, and if people think that was one of Magic's best seasons I'll defer to them.

Magic was arguably still the 2nd best player in the league. No real fall off at all. It was one of his best seasons (regular and post)

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

[Down3223]

Yeah, because teams have nothing to do with winning chips.

Keep it up.

LeBron has always stacked the deck ever since Miami, apart of the first year with the Lakers. So indeed.

He is the initiator of the super team era, he inspired KD to go to Golden State. It's funny how LeBron stans complain about other teams being "too strong" now. How can someone be the GOAT when he has those types of excuses made for him.

The first modern superteam was boston's big 3

Read on Twitter

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[DimesandKnicks]

As I said: I think 1991 Magic was on the tail end of his career and not the MVP caliber player he was seen as reputation-wise (ala old Kobe's all-defence teams).

That's neither here nor there.

Love + Irving, combined, are not with Pippen. As I said, you die on this hill if you want but it's not an arguable case.

Curry didn't beat LeBron three times. It's why he's got 0 Finals MVPs - he's not even getting the most credit for it on his team. He beat LeBron in the same way that Pippen beat Magic.

If you think Duncan deserves that Finals MVP, agree to disagree.

You didn’t watch Pippen did you?

Did you watch Irving or Love?

Did you look up Love's 2016 NBA Finals stats?

[Drygon]

LeBron has always stacked the deck ever since Miami, apart of the first year with the Lakers. So indeed.

He is the initiator of the super team era, he inspired KD to go to Golden State. It's funny how LeBron stans complain about other teams being "too strong" now. How can someone be the GOAT when he has those types of excuses made for him.

The first modern superteam was boston's big 3

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1006258681283895298&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%231006258681283895298

Difference is Boston's big 3 was orchestrated via trades. Danny Ainge gave up a lot of assets to get Ray Allen & KG.

LeBron is the first superstar to become a ring chaser in his prime as a FA, joining a team with 2 All-Stars in their prime too.

[DimesandKnicks]

He is the initiator of the super team era, he inspired KD to go to Golden State. It's funny how LeBron stans complain about other teams being "too strong" now. How can someone be the GOAT when he has those types of excuses made for him.

The first modern superteam was boston's big 3

Read on Twitter

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1006258681283895298&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fs9e.github.io%2Fiframe%2Ftwitter.min.html%231006258681283895298

Difference is Boston's big 3 was orchestrated via trades. Danny Ainge gave up a lot of assets to get Ray Allen & KG.

LeBron is the first superstar to become a ring chaser in his prime as a FA, joining a team with 2 All-Stars in their prime too.

If your organization can't field a competent team what else is he to do?

[PistolPeteJR]

Notable thing about so called LeBron era is everyone won during it.

Yeah, because teams have nothing to do with winning chips.

Keep it up.

LeBron has always stacked the deck ever since Miami, apart of the first year with the Lakers. So indeed.

Couldn’t trust himself to a FO to draft anyone even two tiers below a Pippen or a Rodman, so he took it into his own hands. Not like he joined the team that beat him, which also happens to be the same team to set the regular season record for wins that year.

[PistolPeteJR]

Yeah, because teams have nothing to do with winning chips.

Keep it up.

LeBron has always stacked the deck ever since Miami, apart of the first year with the Lakers. So indeed.

He is the initiator of the super team era, he inspired KD to go to Golden State. It's funny how LeBron stans complain about other teams being "too strong" now. How can someone be the GOAT when he has those types of excuses made for him.

Because context is clearly ignored when you compare the two and their situations. Nice try.

[JN61]

Yeah, because teams have nothing to do with winning chips.

Keep it up.

LeBron has always stacked the deck ever since Miami, apart of the first year with the Lakers. So indeed.

Couldn’t trust himself to a FO to draft anyone even two tiers below a Pippen or a Rodman, so he took it into his own hands. Not like he joined the team that beat him, which also happens to be the same team to set the regular season record for wins that year.

You are trying to move your goal post and make new argument.

[XxIronChainzxX]

You didn’t watch Pippen did you?

Did you watch Irving or Love?

Did you look up Love's 2016 NBA Finals stats?

He had 47% TS% and the Cavs were way worse on the floor with him. I can't tell if you're joking?

[Pop Daddy]

He isn't the Goat but that's not why. People who say championships are the only factor are intellectually bankrupt

[Pg81]

Magic only won 3 while Jordan was playing. Bird only won 1. Both Duncan and Steph have won just as much as Lebron during Lebron’s career and KD and Kawhi could potentially get there as well. Maybe it’s nothing, but it is interesting when we talk about their dominance and how much they “owned” the era.

Winning is predominantly dependent on the talent surrounding you, with very few exceptions. Curry from the beginning had more talent around him than LeBron had until 2011, his 8th year. Curry would have not been able to carry that trash roster farther than first round, and that is a generous estimation, more likely he would have missed the playoffs every damn year. Summa summarum, winning titles has little to do with age and it does not show how dominant you are.

The best players ever usually win multiple championships and mostly all star players get the opportunity to have enough talent around them to win. Part of it has to do with how easy they are to build around.

Steph Curry’s best teammates his first few years were Monta Ellis and David Lee. Let’s not act he was playing on some juggernaut from the beginning. Then he got Klay and Draymond who were nobodies when they started out and then developed while playing with Steph who helped them in their development.

Lebron had a great team from 2011 to 2017 (minus 2015). Furthermore, he’s basically picked his teammates and ushered in the era of players teaming up (so he’s kinda responsible for Durant going to the Warriors) and been his own worst enemy in a lot of ways (his noncommittal nature basically being the reason Kyrie wanted out). Can we stop with the excuses that he couldn’t have won more? ****, if he didnt have basically have the biggest choke ever, the observation I laid out wouldn’t exist.

Yeah, let us not give credit to his opposing teams, it is just him choking. Oh how does that make Curry look like only really beating LeBron when he either teamed up with KD or when the Cavs had serious injury problems? You bring up his "choke" but on the other hand it seems like you are unwilling to give him credit coming back from a huge deficit in the finals. In the end, you can spin your narratives as you like, Curry and the Warriors winning 3 rings is not an argument for Curry being more dominant than LeBron at all. The only area in which Curry is a more efficient shooter than LeBron. He is not even a better passer than him, which considering their respective positions is actually sad.

[Jables]

If the 80's Lakers and Celtics were in their prime during the 90's would Jordan have 6 rings?

He is not greater than Jordan, but most people are able to put things into context. Different era different standards. What real obstacles did the Warriors ever have? The minute an inferior team led by LeBron (that Love never stopped being called part of a big 3 was just sad) beat them they just added another superstar. Wanna note the Heatles? He WAS the Heatles, an ill fitting trio where Wade scored 16 ppg for his third ring in playoffs and Bosh never averaged more than 15.