Is healthy Zion a better talent than healthy Embiid?

[Funcrusher]

I don't get your logic. Are all rookies bad defenders? Why is it "easier" for them to be better offensive players than defensive players? Zion seems incapable of moving his feet on the perimeter, which is an effort thing.

Most rookies are bad defenders, yes. You really don't understand why it's easier for players to be better on offense than defense coming into the league? Not sure I buy that.

And yes, effort has been bad, but considering the circumstances surrounding Zion (injured most of his rookie season, conditioning problems, playing on godawful defensive teams) I'm willing to give him a pass thus far. If he has this same problem 100 + games in his career, than we can make a reasonable assumption this is who he is.

The issue is with Zion he hasn't flashed anything on the defensive end, at least nothing like what he had going in college. Compare him to Embiid's first season, who also had similar conditioning/injury issues, even if Embiid is a legit 5 and Zion only a small ball 5, Embiid was outstanding as a defender in his first season.

I mean, you're right, but even going back to college, Embiid was always going to be the more impactful defensive talent. That was and is his number one calling card, and of course he was a legitimate anchor from his very first season.

I still like Zion's potential on that end, very much so, but I've always valued his offensive potential more tbh. I've always thought at his peak he could approach Barkley/Shaq offensive impact, or a more versatile Giannis (offensively) which is pretty much the highest offensive peaks we've seen from big men. That, plus his defensive motor in college, is what made me think he was the best prospect since LeBron.

I'm not going to argue that he's lived up to that billing thus far, but it's early and overall I still like what I've seen from him, projection wise. Whether he ever reaches Embiid level, I think, is another question, but I do find it odd that we've basically abandoned any hope of Zion realizing the hype at this stage of his career.

[NZB2323]

We should definitely expect a guy that hasn't played a full season to be a good defender, I agree.

Its his 2nd year and he's downright horrible at that end. Embiid has zion beat by a mile. This shouldn't even be a close poll.

Embiid is the GB's new whipping boy.

Like Wilt and Shaq, some people are always going to hate on the big guys.

Some criticism is legit. When Wilt played for the 76ers but lived in New York, he refused to practice before noon. When Shaq went into training camp in 2007, he rigged the exercise bikes to say his heart rate was up. Embiid has had issues with health, conditioning, and effort, but it looks like he could win MVP this year.

[Jables]

Most rookies are bad defenders, yes. You really don't understand why it's easier for players to be better on offense than defense coming into the league? Not sure I buy that.

And yes, effort has been bad, but considering the circumstances surrounding Zion (injured most of his rookie season, conditioning problems, playing on godawful defensive teams) I'm willing to give him a pass thus far. If he has this same problem 100 + games in his career, than we can make a reasonable assumption this is who he is.

The issue is with Zion he hasn't flashed anything on the defensive end, at least nothing like what he had going in college. Compare him to Embiid's first season, who also had similar conditioning/injury issues, even if Embiid is a legit 5 and Zion only a small ball 5, Embiid was outstanding as a defender in his first season.

I mean, you're right, but even going back to college, Embiid was always going to be the more impactful defensive talent. That was and is his number one calling card, and of course he was a legitimate anchor from his very first season.

I still like Zion's potential on that end, very much so, but I've always valued his offensive potential more tbh. I've always thought at his peak he could approach Barkley/Shaq offensive impact, or a more versatile Giannis (offensively) which is pretty much the highest offensive peaks we've seen from big men. That, plus his defensive motor in college, is what made me think he was the best prospect since LeBron.

I'm not going to argue that he's lived up to that billing thus far, but it's early and overall I still like what I've seen from him, projection wise. Whether he ever reaches Embiid level, I think, is another question, but I do find it odd that we've basically abandoned any hope of Zion realizing the hype at this stage of his career.

People go way too early on rookies in basketball these days, social media era I guess, but it's that same hype that got him compared to Joel Embiid, though I think it's more on haters that Zion won this poll. Look how up and down people go on Simmons, he's ****, Sixers should trade him for a superstar! Wait if he's **** then how ... I give up.

[God Squad]

Zions a bad defender and rebounder, like very bad.

[Phreak50]

Can't believe the poll is 50/50.

Embiid at his best is scary.

[SirChurros]

Amazing some of these critiques on a guy who hasn't even played a full season.

[rzzzzz]

Brett Brown never schemed around Embiid. He liked small ball. Jimmy was the first guy on the team to figure out the obvious. So, of course, they had to get rid of Jimmy. Doc is old school enough to also go with the obvious, and Morey knows his business as well as any GM. This season is the first we’ve seen with the big guy finally unleashed. How’s he doing?

[Snotbubbles]

Embiid does everything on a basketball court. This year, he's doing everything really, really efficiently. He's shooting the 3 at over 40%. He gets to the line 11 times a game and is making 84% of those. He's great on defense. A good rebounder. His biggest flaw was conditioning and he's come into this season in great shape. At this point, I don't know if he has a flaw in his game.

I don't think Zion will ever get to "potentially no flaws in his game" type development.

[r0drig0lac]

no way

[SirChurros]

We're 16 games into the season and, while Embiid has been amazing, I'm not really ready to proclaim him as some sort of hyper-efficient player on offense. He's not a 40% shooter from three and one of his biggest flaws has always been settling for jumpshots.

[Sixersftw]

Gravedigging this thread has really made me think. How much better would Joel be if he was healthy from drafting till now? What we are seeing now is a DPOY candidate that happens to be scoring at an insane efficiency and foul rate. This is after 2 potentially career ending Navicular bone injuries, an ACL tear, and the rehab therefrom that superseded development and training. With his development curve and his original athleticism, I can't really comprehend what that looks like.

[NYKnickerbocker]

Embiid and it’s not close to me

[Dacost]

I think there should be an option for none.

Both of this guys can't stay healthy and are made of class.

[Smirk]

Zions a bad defender and rebounder, like very bad.

He’s averaging 7.5 rebounds a game next to a guy that’s gobbling mounds of rebounds. How is he a “bad rebounder”?

Jeez the stuff that gets said about Zion on here is insanity.

[DCasey91]

No certainly not

One is a monster two way player. In fact his rookie year he measured as an elite two way big. And that’s with arguably the worst roster in modern nba history lol. And yet they won games with him.
Embiid healthy from the beginning is a an even more scarier player than now. New age Shaq basically. That’s hindsight though.

Embiid is the real deal folks. He’s a basketball savant. Picked up a basketball at what 16? Watched YouTube vids on how to shoot lol.
MVP & DPOY potential for a big man is a generational talent

ATG scoring rate for a Big too.
Elite free throw rate for a Big
Elite touch (Always had that)

He’s win rate % when he plays is in the elite tier conversation.

And that is without an elite PG/SG!

Both healthy and fit Embiid is skill levels above Williamson.
Williamson isn’t the complete package in terms of bball skills. Embiid certainly is.
His midrange is looking like prime dirk/Jordan right now.
No one can guard him at this moment. He’s the MVP right now


If you want more prove
There’s easily 20+ examples (most in NBA history)
When an elite big guy gets a an elite pg/Sg.

It’s at minimum EFC’s/Finals/Chip/Chip’s

Russell/Jones/Cousy
Wilt/West
Garnett/Pierce
Kobe/Shaq
James/wade/Irving
Malone/Stockton
Abdul - Jabbar/Magic
Hakeem/Drexler
Duncan/Ginobili/Parker
Nowitzki/Kidd
Durant/Curry/Thompson
James/Davis

This ain’t aren’t even half of it

It’s an endless list

.... Hell Jokic/Murray 2x ECF
Adebayo/Butler finals

God forbid Embiid gets one look out league.

[TTP]

Brett Brown never schemed around Embiid. He liked small ball. Jimmy was the first guy on the team to figure out the obvious. So, of course, they had to get rid of Jimmy. Doc is old school enough to also go with the obvious, and Morey knows his business as well as any GM. This season is the first we’ve seen with the big guy finally unleashed. How’s he doing?

The bolded is just not true. Embiid had huge usage throughout the Brett Brown era. The Redick/Embiid 2 man game was the most significant part of our offense, and that's absolutely scheming around Embiid. We're still utilizing similar concepts in our offense this year.

The roster construction was just so garbage last season, not just because of Horford, but because they lost the 2 man game when they got rid of Redick and didn't replace him with anyone similar.

[LloydFree]

Zion is just like Barkley as a rookie. Fat and lazy. He has to get out of that, somehow.

Having Hall of Fame teammates and Coach (Moses, Dr.J and Billy Cunningham) as a young player undoubtedly helped him channel his talent and improve his work habits. Stan Van Gundy is going to have to coach him hard, especially on the defensive end to make him live up to his talent.

[stormi]

Zion is great, but since Embiid first stepped on the court as an injury riddled kid out of Kansas, nobody has consistently and as drastically tilted the floor like him besides Prime Steph Curry and Lebron James. Not Durant, AD, Harden, Jokic, Luka.



His on/off impact is starting to mirror aged 24 to 30 year old Tim Duncan. And the best 3 level scorer he's ever played with was Jimmy Butler for 6 months. Generational talent.

[The_Hater]

From what I’ve seen thus far, healthy Embiid is definitely better. The difference on the defensive end is absolutely massive.

Zion is still very talented and should be very good, but I’ve personally lowers my ceiling on him

[Onlytimewilltel]

Give me embiid as size and elite defense over any offensive potential difference in Zion’s favour.

Zion's defensive potential is elite without a doubt.

What do you base that on? He’s shorter than most of his competition and his wingspan is smaller than most of his competition. I keep hearing this from a lot of different people and don’t really understand it.

I mean he’s got an awesome vertical so he blocked the crap out of weak college competition but that’s not really transferring nicely to the league.

He’s not in the same stratosphere as Embiid as defender even “potentially”.