Michael Jordan is still the GOAT. Lebron has solidified the #2 spot though.

[zimpy27]

Jordan had a TS% of like 54% for his last 3-peat, aged 32-34

LeBron has a TS% of 64% for his last 3 playoffs at age 32,33,35

Why are we comparing TS from different eras lol

This. Makes no sense. Defense was completely different in what it would allow and so was the offense.

But comparing players makes sense? I can agree if you say you can only reasonably have a GOTE, Greatest Of The Era. However, if people keep wanting to compare players across generations then these arguments will always be made.

[therealbig3]

Jordan had a TS% of like 54% for his last 3-peat, aged 32-34

LeBron has a TS% of 64% for his last 3 playoffs at age 32,33,35

Why are we comparing TS from different eras lol

This. Makes no sense. Defense was completely different in what it would allow and so was the offense.

Then adjust for league average in their respective years. It’s not that hard, and LeBron still comes out way ahead.

[Jazz9]

Jordan had a TS% of like 54% for his last 3-peat, aged 32-34

LeBron has a TS% of 64% for his last 3 playoffs at age 32,33,35

Why are we comparing TS from different eras lol

Because a ton of commenters have never watched old games to understand how much the rule changes have led to players having those giant gaudy numbers all the time.

Please LeBron was putting up 31.4/7/6.6 in his third season (2005/2006, 97ppg league average).
Let's stop acting like he only played in the post 2015/16 NBA

[syrus3]

I am okay with that. nothing wrong with that. I wonder what people were saying during the Jordan days when Jordan was coming up in the GOAT conversation. Knicks fans probably talking like the LBJ haters here on the forum lol.

You were probably too young. Knicks fans hated Jordan and the Bulls but there was no debate. He was clearly the GOAT in the 90s. He beat his competition down. 2 3-peats during his prime will do that to you. He didn't let a Jason Terry outplay him and choke in the Finals. This is what LBJ fans don't get. Lebron only has his longevity to compete with Jordan but so many stars won rings during his era. He hardly looks dominant. Finals appearances are participation trophies. You know who made the Finals? The Knicks made it twice in the 90s. The Nets, Pacers, Magic and Thunder made the Finals in the 00s. Nobody cares! But for Lebron, Finals appearances matter to his fans because he comes up so short when compared with Jordan.

ah knicks fans still angry at something.

Lebron fans don’t even have a team to root for, cause he changes them so often. Will he sign with Bronny’s team next?

[therealbig3]

MJ will always have the better narrative. His arch enemies in the Bad Boys which he beat en route for the 1st title, his 3peat into retiring because of the murder of his father, his comeback to get another 3peat, all of his HOF rivals etc. Lebron running to a team with healthy salary situation after ruining cap space of the former team by forcing his FO's to sign win-now players that get washed up after a couple of years which basically makes him seem like a parasite, and having a lot of guys on vet min who deserve a much better contract... not a great narrative at all.

Bill Russell's narrative is still the best. His team won 11 of 13 Finals, beat the two teams he'd ever lost in the playoffs to in subsequent playoffs. He never had significant injuries that caused him to miss games (unless you count winning an Olympic medal in the same season as a championship), while playing tons of minutes. He didn't care about his numbers, in an era where his biggest rival was all about the numbers. He was just about winning where it matters, and did that to a level no one else can touch. How many HOFers does Bill Russell have without doing all that winning, without being the ultimate "win" guy? He came off a better college career, too... led his team to two NCAA championships with a mostly-nothing team (apart from KC Jones).

To paraphrase Bird -- everyone is fighting for #2.

Wasn't Bird the same guy who said that MJ is a god and the best player in the league in '86? God sounds better than GOAT to me, maybe it's God>GOAT>the rest?

I mean, c'mon, 9 out of those 11 rings were in the 50s and 60s, nobody cares about an argument favoring a guy who played versus only 7 different teams to get those 9 rings in NBA's elementary school phase. You shoulda seen my soccer stats when playing vs my classmates, that's some GOAT stuff right there. The rivalries I've formed over the years playing against the same guys from my neighborhood, and sure, beating the only guys who have ever beaten me at some point I'm certain... Oh, you wouldn't believe it!

I'm sorry he didn't play in an era when basketball was filled with talent and a globally most popular sport after soccer, maybe he would've shown he'd be better than all that competition, but I'm sorry, he just can't, life ain't fair.

There’s a bigger difference in league wide talent level between now and the 90s than there is between the 90s and the 60s.

So there goes that logic. I realize that Bill Russell is the one dude that MJ has absolutely zero case against when it comes to team success, so everyone has built up all these weak excuses to try and diminish his success so that MJ still looks like the greatest winner ever, but it just doesn’t work that way.

[zimpy27]

Why are we comparing TS from different eras lol

This. Makes no sense. Defense was completely different in what it would allow and so was the offense.

Then adjust for league average in their respective years. It’s not that hard, and LeBron still comes out way ahead.

Yep, I posted this and everyone was really quiet


Jordan had a TS% of like 54% for his last 3-peat, aged 32-34
League median TS% during those Jordan years was 54%

LeBron has a TS% of 64% for his last 3 playoffs at age 32,33,35
League median TS% during those LeBron years was 57%

[Johnny Bball]

Why are we comparing TS from different eras lol

This. Makes no sense. Defense was completely different in what it would allow and so was the offense.

Then adjust for league average in their respective years. It’s not that hard, and LeBron still comes out way ahead.

You want me to adjust for league averages when driving to the basket was far different and that's both players strengths? Do you think it's even remotely comparable how much easier it is now, or with what is a foul and what is not? League averages do nothing but prove your narrative while ignoring the reality of the rule differences. But sure.

[Wonka]

I’m glad that TS% is the mark of who is the GOAT or not

The Ringer got all of y’all f*cked up

[therealbig3]

This. Makes no sense. Defense was completely different in what it would allow and so was the offense.

Then adjust for league average in their respective years. It’s not that hard, and LeBron still comes out way ahead.

You want me to adjust for league averages when driving to the basket was far different and that's both players strengths? Do you think it's even remotely comparable how much easier it is now, or with what is a foul and what is not? League averages do nothing but prove your narrative while ignoring the reality of the rule differences. But sure.

Defenses are better now though...

[Johnny Bball]

Then adjust for league average in their respective years. It’s not that hard, and LeBron still comes out way ahead.

You want me to adjust for league averages when driving to the basket was far different and that's both players strengths? Do you think it's even remotely comparable how much easier it is now, or with what is a foul and what is not? League averages do nothing but prove your narrative while ignoring the reality of the rule differences. But sure.

Defenses are better now though...

[therealbig3]

I’m glad that TS% is the mark of who is the GOAT or not

The Ringer got all of y’all f*cked up

LeBron is putting up better stat lines AND much better efficiency than 2nd 3-peat Jordan. He's the better player, clearly.

[TurinTurambar]

Read on Twitter

Michael Jordan lost more than he won as well. Losing in the first round or not making the playoffs is not better than losing in the finals.

Yeah the finals loss thing I just don’t understand the logic.

I seriously think the people who use that logic would think Lebron being 4-0 in the finals would be better than 4-6. Like it’s better to lose earlier?

It’s better for Giannis and Kawhi to lose early while Butler makes it to the finals and loses?

SMH


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So at this point I couldn't possibly care less about the LeBron Vs. MJ thing, and one of the big reasons why is the dubious logic that one side tries to employ in order to "win the argument." I can't help myself though; when I see crummy logic getting repeated over and over again, I feel the need to say something.

Before LeBron, nobody talked about Finals appearances or Finals records. I couldn't tell you what Magic's record in the Finals is off the top of my head, nor Kareem's, or Bird's, or literally any other all-time great player's.

You really didn't hear much about first round exits either, unless they were a recurring trend for talented players who seemed to be underachieving, like a young Kevin Garnett or Tracy McGrady.

Maybe it's because I've been lucky enough to watch 6 Lakers champions to this point, but it's all about getting to raise that trophy in the end. If you don't win it all, I'm not patting you on the back for not losing in the second round. As a Lakers fan, 2004 stunk just as much as 2003 or 2007 or 2012 or 1998.

There's no trophy for second place in this league. Nobody else gets credit for just getting to the Finals.

If LeBron somehow ends up with like 8 championships, I will not give a single crap how many Finals appearances it took him to do it. I don't care how many tries it took him to get to 4 now, he's still a 4-time NBA champion and you're not going to get very far down an all-timer list without having to say his name, and nobody can take that from him.

The fact that people are really willing to actively not appreciate one great player for the sake of another is pretty sad.

[HoopsterJones]

Lebron is second only to MJ IMO. He is narrowing that gap though.

[scrabbarista]

Lebron is the goat. Jordan couldnt do these things at 35.

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I'm not here to nitpick what "these things" are, but Jordan was 35 when he completed his second three-peat while winning FMVP. So... pretty much basically what LeBron just did - at the same age. He was also 34 when winning his second title in the middle of his second three-peat and winning FMVP - the same age as LeBron... when he was getting injured and missing the playoffs...

[Saints14]

This seals LeBron as GOAT for me. Him and MJ have comparable peaks, comparable primes but at this point LeBron blows Jordan out of the water in longevity

[therealbig3]

You want me to adjust for league averages when driving to the basket was far different and that's both players strengths? Do you think it's even remotely comparable how much easier it is now, or with what is a foul and what is not? League averages do nothing but prove your narrative while ignoring the reality of the rule differences. But sure.

Defenses are better now though...

Just compare the film, it's not really close.

Regardless, there are plenty of aspects of 90s ball that made it easier for Jordan too. Comparing what they're doing to league average puts their production in perspective relative to the rest of the players from their era. It's a totally fair way of comparing it.

But whatever hurts the Jordan narrative doesn't count I guess.

[Wonka]

This seals LeBron as GOAT for me. Him and MJ have comparable peaks, comparable primes but at this point LeBron blows Jordan out of the water in longevity

MJ was the same age as LBJ when he won his 6th ring (in a much more physical era) so what’s this about longevity? I’m confused.

[Johnny Bball]

Defenses are better now though...

Just compare the film, it's not really close.

Regardless, there are plenty of aspects of 90s ball that made it easier for Jordan too. Comparing what they're doing to league average puts their production in perspective relative to the rest of the players from their era. It's a totally fair way of comparing it.

But whatever hurts the Jordan narrative doesn't count I guess.

I don't have to compare film, I'm old enough to remember scores of 82-75 in the finals and to know you don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, this is a narrative alright, just one slanted to younger people thinking the past is trash for everything. And it's clueless.

[ItsDanger]

If Lebron had stayed in Cleveland his entire career, how many championships would he have won?

[scrabbarista]

I’m glad that TS% is the mark of who is the GOAT or not

The Ringer got all of y’all f*cked up

Right?

Here are this season's team leaders in ORtg/A (the closest equivalent to a "team version" of TS% that I could find in five seconds of googling):

1. Dallas Mavericks
2. Los Angeles Clippers
3. Portland Trail Blazers
4. Denver Nuggets
5. Boston Celtics
6. Houston Rockets
7. Miami Heat
8. San Antonio Spurs
9. Utah Jazz

Notice anyone missing?

(After another five seconds of googling...) The Utah Jazz had the best TS% in the postseason, at .616.

Remember what round they reached?

If you got the Larry O'Brien for TS%, then the Jazz would be champs right now.