Cedric Ceballos in ICU with COVID

[clyde21]

1. it contributes to the development of variants

leaky vaccines are just as likely if not more likely to contribute to development of new and stronger variants.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715

Clyde...what in blue hell are you talking about? You don't trust this vaccine that's been tested on millions of people yet as a counter-argument you cite a study done on chickens, with a completely different virus?

Even then, did you bother thinking about what you've read in the study? Here's an excerpt from it:

"These vaccines also allow the virulent virus to continue evolving precisely because they allow the vaccinated individuals, and therefore themselves, to survive,” said Venugopal Nair, who led the research team. He is the head of the Avian Viral Diseases program at The Pirbright Institute."

He is saying that the virus evolves in vaccinated chickens because the unvaccinated ones **** die from it. How is that an argument against vaccination? Also how is that test with a different, deadlier virus at all relevant to COVID, which has a ~98% survival rate even amongst the unvaccinated?


Dude, it's straight-forward. The variants emerge when the virus replicates in the body. There is an infinitesimal chance of a variant mutation emerging during a replication, but give it trillions x trillions of replications and eventually variants will come out.

Vaccinated people have a smaller viral load. They also carry the virus for a shorter period of time. Thus mathematically, a virus carried by a vaccinated person has a much smaller amount of replication and the odds of a variant coming from a vaccinated person are thus proportionally lower compared to an unvaccinated one.

im not sure what chickens has to do with anything, all medical research is done on animals pretty much, some of the most cited papers in the world the research was done on mice and chickens and other animals...not sure why NOW you think that is beyond the pale.

here is the actual study:

There is a theoretical expectation that some types of vaccines could prompt the evolution of more virulent (“hotter”) pathogens. This idea follows from the notion that natural selection removes pathogen strains that are so “hot” that they kill their hosts and, therefore, themselves. Vaccines that let the hosts survive but do not prevent the spread of the pathogen relax this selection, allowing the evolution of hotter pathogens to occur. This type of vaccine is often called a leaky vaccine. When vaccines prevent transmission, as is the case for nearly all vaccines used in humans, this type of evolution towards increased virulence is blocked. But when vaccines leak, allowing at least some pathogen transmission, they could create the ecological conditions that would allow hot strains to emerge and persist. This theory proved highly controversial when it was first proposed over a decade ago, but here we report experiments with Marek’s disease virus in poultry that show that modern commercial leaky vaccines can have precisely this effect: they allow the onward transmission of strains otherwise too lethal to persist. Thus, the use of leaky vaccines can facilitate the evolution of pathogen strains that put unvaccinated hosts at greater risk of severe disease. The future challenge is to identify whether there are other types of vaccines used in animals and humans that might also generate these evolutionary risks.

https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1002198

aka the covid vaccine.

here is another from 2018:

Vaccines Are Pushing Pathogens to Evolve.

Just as antibiotics breed resistance in bacteria, vaccines can incite changes that enable diseases to escape their control. Researchers are working to head off the evolution of new threats.

https://www.quantamagazine.org/how-vaccines-can-drive-pathogens-to-evolve-20180510/

from Lancet in 2021:

Given that the antibody response to the spike protein is so focused, could mutations in these restricted sequences lead to a less efficacious vaccine, if the human immune response is specific to the vaccine sequence? These mutations might be driven by antigenic drift, or by selection, either during natural infection or due to the vaccine itself. When a virus is grown under the selective pressure of a single monoclonal antibody that targets a single epitope on a viral protein, mutations in that protein sequence will lead to the loss of neutralisation, and the generation of escape mutants. This sequence of events has been shown in the laboratory for polio, measles, and respiratory syncytial virus,7 and in 2020 for SARS-CoV-2.8

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanres/article/PIIS2213-2600(21)00075-8/fulltext

should I keep going?

[clyde21]

The data clearly shows the vaccine protects against severe covid symptoms and reduce hospitalization rates. By taking up ICU beds you are putting other people’s lives at risk by reducing the amount of hospital resources to help others.

this is a stupid, mental gymanstic arugment that can literally be applied to anything.

maybe we should ban cars because of all the car accidents by stupid drivers that take up ICU beds? let's ban all smoking too because of the people who take up ICU beds from smoking. ban all fast food and alcohol because of all the people that develop heart and liver disease who take up ICU beds. let's ban sugar too to make sure no diabetics take up ICU beds. let's make sure to put a gym mandate as well, because something like 70% of all covid patients are morbidly obese...they are taking up all the ICU beds.

the idea that people who don't want to be vaccinated don't deserve an ICU bed but a fat **** who stuffs his face with burgers and alcohol his entire life does is just nonsensical BS. miss me with that ****.

This seems like a pretty clear false equivalency.

Are we in the middle of a pandemic of drunk drivers? Smoking hospitalisations? Morbid obesity (maybe in the US)? And if we were, wouldn't there be a good reason to do what you're suggesting?

Actually, isn't this what we have been doing? Smoking is illegal in certain areas, there's an age limit to drinking and it's illegal to drive under the influence. These aren't going to stamp things out completely but they do help to limit the damages caused.

Sort of like a vaccine, no?

exactly -- and people will either choose to take the vaccine or not, just like people will choose to drink and drive or to eat **** food or not exercise to gain weight or not...you know, that's life, with choices, sometimes it leads to people ending up in the ICU, because, you know, that's kinda the point of the ICU and why it's there.

this isn't a false equivalency at all, you just refuse to acnknowledge the ridiculouslness of 'THE UNVAXXED ARE TAKING MY ICU BED AWAY'.

[NyKnicks1714]

this isn't a false equivalency at all, you just refuse to acnknowledge the ridiculouslness of 'THE UNVAXXED ARE TAKING MY ICU BED AWAY'.

...except it's not ridiculous, it's a fact. It's happening right now in hospitals across the country. You can make your drunk driver whataboutisms all you want, but they're not the ones causing ICUs to run out of beds right now.

[clyde21]

this isn't a false equivalency at all, you just refuse to acnknowledge the ridiculouslness of 'THE UNVAXXED ARE TAKING MY ICU BED AWAY'.

...except it's not ridiculous, it's a fact. It's happening right now in hospitals across the country. You can make your drunk driver whataboutisms all you want, but they're not the ones causing ICUs to run out of beds right now.

it's not a whataboutism, it's a fact, 80% of all covid patients are obese. why not a weight mandate while we're at it?

[HomoSapien]

I loved Cedric Ceballos the player. He was a ton of fun to watch, especially during his Laker days. I hope he gets better. That said, it's been an emotionally draining few years. All the information in the world is out there to make the right decision. Access to the vaccine is about as easy as possible in the United States. If with all this, you still made the terrible decision not to get vaccinated, well... it's just hard for me to feel sympathy for you.

[WillyJakkz]

how does driving drunk endanger the lives of others?

you guys can't have it both ways...its either the vaccine protects against severe covid symptoms or it doesn't. which is it?

is there a vaccine that protects against drunk drivers?

Knowing that I have a risk of not getting an ICU bed because a bunch of covid unvaccinated idiots are taking up beds does impact my daily life and could impact my own ability to get treated for any type of health issue that I have.

Oh boy, the hypothetical "but what if I" scenario...

You've made it this long thankfully without needing an ICU bed, do you expect to need one asap? God forbid someone actually dies who's in that bed while you crybaby about you possibly needing the bed.

[NyKnicks1714]

this isn't a false equivalency at all, you just refuse to acnknowledge the ridiculouslness of 'THE UNVAXXED ARE TAKING MY ICU BED AWAY'.

...except it's not ridiculous, it's a fact. It's happening right now in hospitals across the country. You can make your drunk driver whataboutisms all you want, but they're not the ones causing ICUs to run out of beds right now.

it's not a whataboutism, it's a fact, 80% of all covid patients are obese. why not a weight mandate while we're at it?

This is a textbook whataboutism. In any case, it's not even a good one. If all those obese Covid patients had taken the vaccine, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now.

[babyjax13]

1. it contributes to the development of variants

leaky vaccines are just as likely if not more likely to contribute to development of new and stronger variants.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715

2. it contributes to the spread of the virus to immunocompromised people who can get the vaccine

they should get the vaccine then.

3. it contributes to the spread of the virus to immunocompromised people who can't get the vaccine

these subset of people will always be at risk, and from things with a much higher fatality rate than covid...medical apartheid is not the solution here, sorry. it is what it is.

4. it leads to reduced space in ICUs, etc. because of the amount of covid patients

then ban alcohol and fast food and put a gym mandate, considering the vast majority of covid patients are either obese or have 3 other comorbidities from living unhealthy lifestyles. that'll make sure even more ICU beds are empy, no?

5. it delays preventative care for other conditions because of the amount of covid patients

you can say that about anything. people who get heart disease from stuffing their faces with burgers every day are much more likely to take up ICU space than the reverse population...is there gonna be a no burger mandate too?

1. all the data we have shows that vaccinated individuals are less likely to get covid, and unlikely to die from it. We can assume that "leaky vaccines" causing mutations is a possibility [and the article flat out says that studies should be done to see if it is the case outside of this one chicken vaccine they are studying], but (a) there is no guarantee the leaky vaccine theory holds w/covid vaccines (i.e., they might not be 'leaky enough' once we reach herd immunity, which we unfortunately aren't going to do), and (b) even if vaccines are leaky, they still generally greatly reduce rates of infection. So, we could move forward with your hypothetical, in the hope that an extrapolation that may or may not be true actually is, but even if we did that, the fact that there are still some transmissible variants may not pose a large enough risk to matter IF EVERYONE IS VACCINATED. i.e. the risk was that it leads to variants that are more deadly for the unvaccinated, not that it necessarily leads to variants that are more deadly for the vaccinated (although if we want to say that it would, well, at least we've had some time to nail down treatment and develop additional vaccine technologies). If everyone is vaccinated, then we are operating in a different world of observations, so from an empirical perspective, you don't have much ground to stand on.

2. My wording was a bit imprecise, but I think the implication was obvious. If people are going to get sick and die of covid while also having the vaccine, it is most likely going to be people who are immunocompromised. Not getting the vaccine contributes to the spread of a disease that could kill them, but this can be highly mitigated if people get a free and safe vaccine. Of course, everyone who can get a vaccine, should.

3. There are consequences for actions - if you don't get a vaccine people are free to deny you a job, to increase you insurance, to deny you entry into their place of business, etc. Now, a universal government mandate likely would not pass constitutional muster (the comparison we have now is the requirement for children going into the public school system to have certain vaccines, which is not the same as a universal mandate), but since you are so into making equivocations, I'll offer my own 'dubious' comparison ... even if there were a mandate, it would be no more an infringement on your rights than taxes, or any other government mandate, as it does not fundamentally prevent you from doing anything you otherwise would [other than not getting a vaccine], and not getting a vaccine does in fact deprive people on a large scale of their *lives.* Yes, you may experience side-effects, and that would suck, you might even die, but the consequentialist calculation here might be the best (and I mean this in the JS Mill 'do no unnecessary harm' version of utilitarianism). But, I'm not advocating for that, and I don't think most people are - it's very easy to pick the most extreme position in an argument and claim it represents the whole (and I do think there are problems with the consequentialist logic that I won't lay out here, but you haven't provided any logical or compelling rebuttal to it, either --- and to be clear, I'm not asking you to do so, and I simply won't respond to you again).

4. this is just insensitive and completely asinine. Yes, people should make healthier decisions and they face all kinds of impediments for not doing so. But lots of healthy people are dying of covid, too (even if it is not the majority) because people (including themselves) aren't getting vaccinated. Just get vaccinated, don't be an ass, don't take a stupid and unneeded risk.

5. again with the equivocating. Yes, if I get fat and have a heart attack it takes up an ICU bed, and yes, if everyone had heart attacks at the same time we'd have a huge problem due to making poor decisions...but guess what? The problem is that this is a disease that spreads, and while it mostly kills people with comorbidities, it kills people who make healthy choices, too. We could avoid this whole situation with ICUs right now if people would just get the damn vaccine.

But all of this, absolutely all of it, is absolutely insensitive and off-topic - but considering that I've had a very close family member die of covid, and I know lots of people who are in the same boat, it is really hard to see someone act like getting a vaccine is some gross miscarriage of justice - even more so than negligently spreading a disease that has killed over 600,000 people in the United States, and over 4 million people world wide. There is something very easy to do to protect people, and that is to get a vaccine that is free and safe, and if people have to face social repercussions for not getting it - so be it, that's how life is.

[clyde21]

...except it's not ridiculous, it's a fact. It's happening right now in hospitals across the country. You can make your drunk driver whataboutisms all you want, but they're not the ones causing ICUs to run out of beds right now.

it's not a whataboutism, it's a fact, 80% of all covid patients are obese. why not a weight mandate while we're at it?

This is a textbook whataboutism. In any case, it's not even a good one. If all those obese Covid patients had taken the vaccine, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now.

and if all those people were in shape, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now -- in fact being obese and/or having comorbidities like heart disease or liver disease or diabetes has a much stronger correlation to being hospitalized than simply having covid.

why is one group taking your ICU bed from you but not the other? this is classic mental gymnastics.

[Duke4life831]

Its hard for me to comprehend that people are even talking about the idea of judging morality when it comes to if someone should get medical care.

What other moral sins are too bad to be treated for? Because it seems like many believe that not getting a vaccine is crossing that moral line of someone who shouldn't be treated at a hospital.

Do we really want to live in a society that judges someone's morals on if they deserve to get healthcare. Its one thing to say, "I disagree with your choice not to get vaccinate" but to then make the jump to "I dont think you deserve medical care because of that choice". Damn that is a scary leap to make.

This has become much more than just a vaccine debate. We are now talking about drastically changing the way we view how a society should work. Judging if someone is moral enough and has made enough right decisions in their life on if they deserve the chance at emergency medical care. That is a road I dont ever want to go down.

[NyKnicks1714]

it's not a whataboutism, it's a fact, 80% of all covid patients are obese. why not a weight mandate while we're at it?

This is a textbook whataboutism. In any case, it's not even a good one. If all those obese Covid patients had taken the vaccine, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now.

and if all those people were in shape, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now -- in fact being obese and/or having comorbidities like heart disease or liver disease or diabetes has a much stronger correlation to being hospitalized than simply having covid.

why is one group taking your ICU bed from you but not the other? this is classic mental gymnastics.

Well yes, if we could solve all the socioeconomic, societal, cultural, and behavioral issues that contribute to obesity, in as much time as it takes to get a free, readily available vaccine, we might not have full ICUs in some hospitals right now.

Back in the real world though, that free, readily available vaccine can accomplish that goal. Obesity is a huge problem which needs to be addressed, but pre-Covid, ICUs weren't running out of beds because of it.

[WillyJakkz]

"They terk err beds!"

[babyjax13]

I don't think it is useful to go back and forth with Clyde on this at all, or for Clyde to go back and forth with anyone else. We all hope that Cedric pulls through, and it is really sad to see him in this position.

[clyde21]

1. it contributes to the development of variants

leaky vaccines are just as likely if not more likely to contribute to development of new and stronger variants.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715

2. it contributes to the spread of the virus to immunocompromised people who can get the vaccine

they should get the vaccine then.

3. it contributes to the spread of the virus to immunocompromised people who can't get the vaccine

these subset of people will always be at risk, and from things with a much higher fatality rate than covid...medical apartheid is not the solution here, sorry. it is what it is.

4. it leads to reduced space in ICUs, etc. because of the amount of covid patients

then ban alcohol and fast food and put a gym mandate, considering the vast majority of covid patients are either obese or have 3 other comorbidities from living unhealthy lifestyles. that'll make sure even more ICU beds are empy, no?

5. it delays preventative care for other conditions because of the amount of covid patients

you can say that about anything. people who get heart disease from stuffing their faces with burgers every day are much more likely to take up ICU space than the reverse population...is there gonna be a no burger mandate too?

1. all the data we have shows that vaccinated individuals are less likely to get covid, and unlikely to die from it. We can assume that "leaky vaccines" causing mutations is a possibility [and the article flat out says that studies should be done to see if it is the case outside of this one chicken vaccine they are studying], but (a) there is no guarantee the leaky vaccine theory holds w/covid vaccines (i.e., they might not be 'leaky enough' once we reach herd immunity, which we unfortunately aren't going to do), and (b) even if vaccines are leaky, they still generally greatly reduce rates of infection. So, we could move forward with your hypothetical, in the hope that an extrapolation that may or may not be true actually is, but even if we did that, the fact that there are still some transmissible variants may not pose a large enough risk to matter IF EVERYONE IS VACCINATED. i.e. the risk was that it leads to variants that are more deadly for the unvaccinated, not that it necessarily leads to variants that are more deadly for the vaccinated (although if we want to say that it would, well, at least we've had some time to nail down treatment and develop additional vaccine technologies). If everyone is vaccinated, then we are operating in a different world of observations, so from an empirical perspective, you don't have much ground to stand on.

2. My wording was a bit imprecise, but I think the implication was obvious. If people are going to get sick and die of covid while also having the vaccine, it is most likely going to be people who are immunocompromised. Not getting the vaccine contributes to the spread of a disease that could kill them, but this can be highly mitigated if people get a free and safe vaccine. Of course, everyone who can get a vaccine, should.

3. There are consequences for actions - if you don't get a vaccine people are free to deny you a job, to increase you insurance, to deny you entry into their place of business, etc. Now, a universal government mandate likely would not pass constitutional muster (the comparison we have now is the requirement for children going into the public school system to have certain vaccines, which is not the same as a universal mandate), but since you are so into making equivocations, I'll offer my own 'dubious' comparison ... even if there were a mandate, it would be no more an infringement on your rights than taxes, or any other government mandate, as it does not fundamentally prevent you from doing anything you otherwise would [other than not getting a vaccine], and not getting a vaccine does in fact deprive people on a large scale of their *lives.* Yes, you may experience side-effects, and that would suck, you might even die, but the consequentialist calculation here might be the best (and I mean this in the JS Mill 'do no unnecessary harm' version of utilitarianism). But, I'm not advocating for that, and I don't think most people are - it's very easy to pick the most extreme position in an argument and claim it represents the whole.

4. this is just insensitive and completely asinine. Yes, people should make healthier decisions and they face all kinds of impediments for not doing so. But lots of healthy people are dying of covid, too (even if it is not the majority) because people (including themselves) aren't getting vaccinated. Just get vaccinated, don't be an ass, don't take a stupid and unneeded risk.

5. again with the equivocating. Yes, if I get fat and have a heart attack it takes up an ICU bed, and yes, if everyone had heart attacks at the same time we'd have a huge problem due to making poor decisions...but guess what? The problem is that this is a disease that spreads, and while it mostly kills people with comorbidities, it kills people who make healthy choices, too.

But all of this, absolutely all of it, is absolutely insensitive and off-topic - but considering that I've had a very close family member die of covid, and I know lots of people who are in the same boat, it is really hard to see someone act like getting a vaccine is some gross miscarriage of justice - even more so than negligently spreading a disease that has killed over 600,000 people in the United States, and over 4 million people world wide. There is something very easy to do to protect people, and that is to get a vaccine that is free and safe, and if people have to face social repercussions for not getting it - so be it, that's how life is.

1. yes, the vaccine inhibits severe covid symptoms...the only conclusion that can be drawn from that is if you're vaccinated, you have nothing to worry about, you're not gonna get hospitalized. if you're worried about the unvaccinated getting hospitalized, that's their decision. the same way someone who chooses to drink every day is making the choice of potentially getting liver disease and taking up an ICU bed. the same way a person who becomes diabetic because of their sugar consumption is making that decision. you can't say one is stealing your ICU bed but not the other, it's nonsensical. regardless...if you are vaccinated, move on with your life and stop talking down to people who aren't, and stop pushing for medical apartheid (not saying you specifically, but in general).

2. except the vaccinated can also spread the virus...the vaccine is primarily just stopping the severe symptoms, it's not actively stopping the spread in any real capacity. some of the most heavily vaccinated places on earth, like Iceland, Israel, Gibraltar, etc. have seen the highest rates of cases in the world.

3. if you want to raise someone's insurance because they don't want to get vaccinated, fine...I don't think that's out of the ordinary...just like if you want to raise someone's insurance because they live an extremely unhealthy lifestyle...where I draw the line is the medical apartheid...like denying people the right to work and feed their families because they don't want to get vaccinated...just completely absurd...if people are vaccinated wtf do they have to worried about exactly? that someone might "steal" their ICU bed? come the **** on.

4. it might be insensitive but it's the truth. the vast vast vast majority of hospitalized covid patients are obese...in fact being obese has a stronger correlation to getting hospitalized than just having covid by itself...that's not to say there aren't corner cases of perfectly healthy people struggling w/ covid...but they are corner cases...why aren't we talking about junk food mandates that inhibit heart disease and diabetes?

5. again, corner cases. 94% of all covid patients have almost 3 other comorbidities to their name, 80% of them are classified as obese. the data conclusively shows that living an unhealthy lifestyle is much more prone getting you into an ICU bed than covid by itself...which on its own has a mortality rate that's a rounding error of being nothing.

[MikeM]

you guys can't have it both ways...its either the vaccine protects against severe covid symptoms or it doesn't. which is it?

is there a vaccine that protects against drunk drivers?

Knowing that I have a risk of not getting an ICU bed because a bunch of covid unvaccinated idiots are taking up beds does impact my daily life and could impact my own ability to get treated for any type of health issue that I have.

i feel like the same way about all the people who refuse to exercise and eat sugar and junk food all day. these people should not take up ICU beds from people who choose to live a healthy lifestyle.

sounds like a stupid **** argument when u try to extrapolate it to anything other than covid, huh?

Being fat is not contagious.

You can't be fat, breathe on 10 people and then magically 10 other people are fat and you're down 10 ICU beds.

Hello?

[clyde21]

This is a textbook whataboutism. In any case, it's not even a good one. If all those obese Covid patients had taken the vaccine, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now.

and if all those people were in shape, we wouldn't have full ICUs right now -- in fact being obese and/or having comorbidities like heart disease or liver disease or diabetes has a much stronger correlation to being hospitalized than simply having covid.

why is one group taking your ICU bed from you but not the other? this is classic mental gymnastics.

Well yes, if we could solve all the socioeconomic, societal, cultural, and behavioral issues that contribute to obesity, in as much time as it takes to get a free, readily available vaccine, we might not have full ICUs in some hospitals right now.

Back in the real world though, that free, readily available vaccine can accomplish that goal. Obesity is a huge problem which needs to be addressed, but pre-Covid, ICUs weren't running out of beds because of it.

that's all fine and dandy until you realize:

1) some of the most heavily vaccinated places on earth have had the highest rates of covid cases

2) data suggests that natural immunity is much stronger against covid than vaccine induced-immunity

3) obesity and other comorbidities have a much higher correlation to ending up in the ICU than standalone covid on a healthy individual vaccinated or not

4) if people want to get vaccinated more power to them, the data suggests that the vaccine does stop severe symptoms of covid...but i am completely against the idea of medical apartheid because you think you are owed an ICU bed instead of a guy who's personal decisions you disagree with.

[Duke4life831]

I don't think it is useful to go back and forth with Clyde on this at all, or for Clyde to go back and forth with anyone else. We all hope that Cedric pulls through, and it is really sad to see him in this position.

Clearly this isn't true though. I mean on the 1st page of this thread we have a post talking about how Cedric should automatically forfeit his bed in the ICU. And 11 other posters on here And'1 that. Saying someone has essentially lost their right to be treated medically because they dont have a vaccine isn't hoping Cedric pulls through this. That is saying something far more darker and sinister.

[clyde21]

Knowing that I have a risk of not getting an ICU bed because a bunch of covid unvaccinated idiots are taking up beds does impact my daily life and could impact my own ability to get treated for any type of health issue that I have.

i feel like the same way about all the people who refuse to exercise and eat sugar and junk food all day. these people should not take up ICU beds from people who choose to live a healthy lifestyle.

sounds like a stupid **** argument when u try to extrapolate it to anything other than covid, huh?

Being fat is not contagious.

You can't be fat, breathe on 10 people and then magically 10 other people are fat and you're down 10 ICU beds.

Hello?

this discussion is about whether someone deserves an ICU bed because of their lifestyle decision or not.

if someone who chooses not to get the vaccine doesn't deserve an ICU bed...why does someone who smokes? or someone who drinks regularly? or someone who eats junk for every day and develops heart disease? or someone that likes to speed on the freeway?

glad you people think u can decide who "deserves" an ICU bed or not.

[clyde21]

I don't think it is useful to go back and forth with Clyde on this at all, or for Clyde to go back and forth with anyone else. We all hope that Cedric pulls through, and it is really sad to see him in this position.

of course we all hope Cedric pulls through, but some people here think that he doesn't deserve any help because he *possibly* chose not to get vaccinated.

just disgusting.

[babyjax13]

I don't think it is useful to go back and forth with Clyde on this at all, or for Clyde to go back and forth with anyone else. We all hope that Cedric pulls through, and it is really sad to see him in this position.

of course we all hope Cedric pulls through, but some people here think that he doesn't deserve any help because he *possibly* chose not to get vaccinated.

just disgusting.

Fair enough. I do believe that in a disaster there are guidelines for who to allocate beds to based on likelihood of survival, but I absolutely agree that no one deserves to not get help because they *might have* or even *did* make a poor decision.