Would James Harden and Blake Griffin for Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic trade be upgrade for the Nets ?

[chitownsports4ever]

Imagine thinking Ball and Vucevic are better than a former MVP.

He hasn't been great this year. But hes still WAY better than those guys. Bulls would take that deal in 5 seconds.

Bulls would say no and wouldn't hesitate at all.

You are overrating Harden

They have Lavine and DeRozan why would they give up a top 10 center and a top 5 defensive pg for someone whose value comes entirely from scoring ?

People thinking the Bulls would even consider this deal this dont understand the way the they have constructed the team.

Ball is basically the key to how the Bulls want to play which is to disrupt the pick and chuck every time down the floor and Harden is basically the opposite of that

[InsideInfo]

Harden would be the 3rd best player on the Bulls. Let that sink in. This trade decimates the Bulls defense and makes them without question the worst rebounding team in the NBA.

Harden would be the 2nd best player in Bulls history. if he played for you.

At this point he is not better then MJ, Rose, Pippen, or Butler when they played for us.

If you’re talking career as a whole… well Dwyane Wade would like to say hello.

[Papi_swav]

Nets say no.

[danvato]

I agree that neither team would do it
But, as a Bulls' fan I wouldn't trade Ball for Harden, straight up. Part of it is that I like watching players who I enjoy, and Harden is one of my least favorite players ever.
Part of it is we already have Lavine and DDR-elite scorers. Plus, Vuc seems to be coming around and is an elite 3rd option. Ball is a first team All Defense guy who spreads the floor and plays his ass off.
Harden is a HoF guy, but his attitude would not be welcome in Chic

Pls lock this thread

[TheFinishSniper]

Nets say no.

Bulls say no first.

[JDR720]

That would be a really bad trade for the Bulls.

Harden may be the best player in the deal, but Griffin is by far the worst. He's completely washed-up. Vuc is a top 8 center and Lonzo is a top 15 PG.

And what to do with DeMar and LaVine? Both of them are arguably better than Harden is at this point in their careers. And when you add in the fact Harden will walk in the off-season this becomes even worse.

This would make the Bulls worse. They have a very good balanced team, Harden would botch that.

[panthermark]

The one thing the Bulls DON'T need is a ball dominant, no defense playing, scoring wing.
This is a no from the Bulls because he does not really fit what the Bulls need.

The Bulls need three things:
*A good 3&D PF (it would be nice if Patrick Williams could turn into this, but we will see what shakes loose at the deadline).

*Some bench scoring (it would be nice of Coby White could do this on a consistent basis, but we will see what shakes loose at the deadline).

*Vuc to get back to his old self (he is starting to show signs of heating up). Over his last 3 games (all wins), he has shot 23 of 45 (51.1%), including 7 of 17 from deep (41.2%). He is averaging 17.6 ppg and 11.3 rpb over that stretch....and is actually on the good side of +/- for those games as well.

Quoting myself since this was posted before the game. Still need the first two items....but as for a Vuc update. Great game today. There was an article about how the cancelled games really helped Vuc get back to basics. He was STRUGGLING. Since that little break, he has now had 4 straight games with a positive +/- (and 4 straight wins).
With tonight's game, over the last 4 he is now at:
19.25 PPG
12.75 RPG
3.75 APG
1.00 SPG
2.25 BPG
1.00 TOPG
32 out of 64 (50%) from the field
11 out of 25 (44%) from three.
Oddly enough, he can do better as he has only taken 3 free throws over that span (2 for 3).

We don't need Vuc putting up 24 points per game anymore (like he did as an All-Star). We need a consistent, highly efficient 19/11/3/1/1 with limited turnovers, timely threes to create space, and smart position defense. He can do that.

[Sebastian]

Bulls are currently already (probably) better than the Nets and have a shot at the 1 seed in the East. They make this trade and they remove so many of the things that have put them where they are. Losing Lonzo destroys their perimeter D, and losing Vuc leaves them with the weakest big man rotation in the East. All to take a chance on Harden, whose mere presence devalues Demar and Lavine, their two best players. In the end the Bulls get a better primary ball handler and tertiary scorer who doesn't fit with the team they've put together. That's it. It's not nearly enough.

[WindyCityBorn]

Bulls would never do this. Griffin is completely washed up and Harden has fallen of a cliff.

[panthermark]

Bulls say no because it does not help Chicago. Not sure why certain posters have a problem understanding the team build. The Nets still have Kyrie in the wings, so such a trade helps the Nets more than it helps the Bulls.

If one were to look at the Bulls roster and say, ok...what do they need, and what don't they need. I think everyone would agree that the LAST thing the Bulls need is a defensively weak, ball dominant scoring wing. Lonzo (and Caruso) is the key to the defense, while Vuc is a key hub of the offense.

[BloodNinja]

Harden is a loser. No way Bulls want him.

[YamaChan]

The hivemind takes on this forum are absolutely hilarious sometimes.

I laughed HARD at this notion Harden alone isn't way more valuable than freaking Lonzo Ball and Vucevic.

One player has a league MVP and was the MVP frontrunner last season until his hamstring gave out, as well as one of the most prolific offensive weapons in basketball history...the others are freaking Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic.

Are you kidding me...is what I want to say, but I know that this forum is actually serious about these ice cold takes.

This is just blatant Harden hate, and people are hopping on that bandwagon during his slow start to the season.

Oh look, he almost had a 40-point triple double. Another day in the office.

[WindyCityBorn]

You guys keep vaunting Harden's scoring acumen, which is absolutely there. He's amazing at getting his team points. Of course he's far more valuable than Vuc and Ball.

He's be absolutely ruinous to Bulls roster he'd be coming to. You guys are looking at this amazing player and think he automatically upgrades a roster without looking at the team that'd be around him post trade.

This trade would make the Bulls flimsy frontcourt absolutely, comically pitiful. It would negate the synergy the Bulls have going with LaVine and DeRozan. DDR goes from top5 scorer and 4th quarter hero to an afterthought as Harden does his usual tunnel vision dribble iso garbage. Zach becomes a spot-up 3pt shooter. Both those guys are immediately unhappy that their roles, which have led to the most successful Bulls start in a decade, would be upended by the enormous gravity Harden requires. The entire momentum this team has built up would disappear in one day. Then Harden opts for 54 million and there's zero room to actually create a roster around him. Or he more likely bolts to a far better situation on a big new contract.

I understand that Harden is a great player and gets the Nets wins. This specific trade, to this specific team, would be an unmitigated disaster. It's completely illogical. Neither team would have an iota of interest.

You guys keep talking as if the Bulls are even in the Championship conversation.

Yes they have a nice little team. And a good record. They are currently a second round exit.

Cannot beat the Bucks, Nets and probably the Heat.

Who cares if it messes up the chemistry. Just last year Harden was playing like a top 5 player in the NBA. A stretch of bad games is not going to change that.

I would not trade Harden for Ball and Vucevic. Nor would I trade Harden for Derozan and Lavine. He is a huge step from those guys. And always will be.

Lavine has never even come close to playing at an MVP level. And is in his prime.

The last time Derozan was in the playoff conversation he was so horrific his own coach benched him. And then sent him on the next plane to San Antonio.

Yes Harden has had some struggles in the clutch. But hes also consistently put up 30+ and nearly beat the 2017 Ws, which many consider the greatest team of all time.

The fact that this thread exists to me is funny. But the fact that Bulls fans agree has me floored. You people have lost your mind.

I would hang up in the face Nets idiot GM’s face if he asked for LaVine OR DeRozan for Harden. Both are significantly better than him now. No one cares what he did 3 years ago. Passing is literally the only thing Harden does better than LaVine at this point. DeRozan poops on him from a severe height too. KD is carrying him hard.

[YamaChan]

You guys keep vaunting Harden's scoring acumen, which is absolutely there. He's amazing at getting his team points. Of course he's far more valuable than Vuc and Ball.

He's be absolutely ruinous to Bulls roster he'd be coming to. You guys are looking at this amazing player and think he automatically upgrades a roster without looking at the team that'd be around him post trade.

This trade would make the Bulls flimsy frontcourt absolutely, comically pitiful. It would negate the synergy the Bulls have going with LaVine and DeRozan. DDR goes from top5 scorer and 4th quarter hero to an afterthought as Harden does his usual tunnel vision dribble iso garbage. Zach becomes a spot-up 3pt shooter. Both those guys are immediately unhappy that their roles, which have led to the most successful Bulls start in a decade, would be upended by the enormous gravity Harden requires. The entire momentum this team has built up would disappear in one day. Then Harden opts for 54 million and there's zero room to actually create a roster around him. Or he more likely bolts to a far better situation on a big new contract.

I understand that Harden is a great player and gets the Nets wins. This specific trade, to this specific team, would be an unmitigated disaster. It's completely illogical. Neither team would have an iota of interest.

You guys keep talking as if the Bulls are even in the Championship conversation.

Yes they have a nice little team. And a good record. They are currently a second round exit.

Cannot beat the Bucks, Nets and probably the Heat.

Who cares if it messes up the chemistry. Just last year Harden was playing like a top 5 player in the NBA. A stretch of bad games is not going to change that.

I would not trade Harden for Ball and Vucevic. Nor would I trade Harden for Derozan and Lavine. He is a huge step from those guys. And always will be.

Lavine has never even come close to playing at an MVP level. And is in his prime.

The last time Derozan was in the playoff conversation he was so horrific his own coach benched him. And then sent him on the next plane to San Antonio.

Yes Harden has had some struggles in the clutch. But hes also consistently put up 30+ and nearly beat the 2017 Ws, which many consider the greatest team of all time.

The fact that this thread exists to me is funny. But the fact that Bulls fans agree has me floored. You people have lost your mind.

I would hang up in the face Nets idiot GM’s face if he asked for LaVine OR DeRozan for Harden. Both are significantly better than him now. No one cares what he did 3 years ago. Passing is literally the only thing Harden does better than LaVine at this point. DeRozan poops on him from a severe height too. KD is carrying him hard.

Not only better but significantly better? Oh my lord. This is why I can't be a regular here. This is so beyond the realm of absurdity that I can't even begin to approach trying to inject some sort of reason into the conversation without getting banned again.

I'm sorry, was last season three years ago? Because I could've sworn I saw Harden carrying the Nets with KD and Kyrie both missing significant chunks of time in the regular season. Put Lavine or Derozan on those same rosters, and I highly, highly doubt they're MVP frontrunners or carrying the team to the top seed in the East.

The recency bias of sports fans is INSANE, and these B level players at BEST being not only compared to but ranked over James Harden is just so laughably absurd.

James Harden at his best is in an entirely different league from any player on the Bulls. Easily. It shouldn't even be a conversation.

[panthermark]

The hivemind takes on this forum are absolutely hilarious sometimes.

I laughed HARD at this notion Harden alone isn't way more valuable than freaking Lonzo Ball and Vucevic.

One player has a league MVP and was the MVP frontrunner last season until his hamstring gave out, as well as one of the most prolific offensive weapons in basketball history...the others are freaking Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic.

Are you kidding me...is what I want to say, but I know that this forum is actually serious about these ice cold takes.

This is just blatant Harden hate, and people are hopping on that bandwagon during his slow start to the season.

Oh look, he almost had a 40-point triple double. Another day in the office.

Even before tonight, both Lavine and DeRozen are averaging 26/5/4 on 49% shooting. Neither are historically known as great defenders.
When you add in age, position, fit, and contracts, what do the Bulls actually gain? Too many people are caught up on the name, while ignoring the fit. Sounds like the Lakers.

[Pantsman]

You guys keep vaunting Harden's scoring acumen, which is absolutely there. He's amazing at getting his team points. Of course he's far more valuable than Vuc and Ball.

He's be absolutely ruinous to Bulls roster he'd be coming to. You guys are looking at this amazing player and think he automatically upgrades a roster without looking at the team that'd be around him post trade.

This trade would make the Bulls flimsy frontcourt absolutely, comically pitiful. It would negate the synergy the Bulls have going with LaVine and DeRozan. DDR goes from top5 scorer and 4th quarter hero to an afterthought as Harden does his usual tunnel vision dribble iso garbage. Zach becomes a spot-up 3pt shooter. Both those guys are immediately unhappy that their roles, which have led to the most successful Bulls start in a decade, would be upended by the enormous gravity Harden requires. The entire momentum this team has built up would disappear in one day. Then Harden opts for 54 million and there's zero room to actually create a roster around him. Or he more likely bolts to a far better situation on a big new contract.

I understand that Harden is a great player and gets the Nets wins. This specific trade, to this specific team, would be an unmitigated disaster. It's completely illogical. Neither team would have an iota of interest.

You guys keep talking as if the Bulls are even in the Championship conversation.

Yes they have a nice little team. And a good record. They are currently a second round exit.

Cannot beat the Bucks, Nets and probably the Heat.

Who cares if it messes up the chemistry. Just last year Harden was playing like a top 5 player in the NBA. A stretch of bad games is not going to change that.

I would not trade Harden for Ball and Vucevic. Nor would I trade Harden for Derozan and Lavine. He is a huge step from those guys. And always will be.

Lavine has never even come close to playing at an MVP level. And is in his prime.

The last time Derozan was in the playoff conversation he was so horrific his own coach benched him. And then sent him on the next plane to San Antonio.

Yes Harden has had some struggles in the clutch. But hes also consistently put up 30+ and nearly beat the 2017 Ws, which many consider the greatest team of all time.

The fact that this thread exists to me is funny. But the fact that Bulls fans agree has me floored. You people have lost your mind.

I would hang up in the face Nets idiot GM’s face if he asked for LaVine OR DeRozan for Harden. Both are significantly better than him now. No one cares what he did 3 years ago. Passing is literally the only thing Harden does better than LaVine at this point. DeRozan poops on him from a severe height too. KD is carrying him hard.

You gotta be a pretty hardcore homer to think DeRozan is better than harden.

[WindyCityBorn]

Harden has not played like a top 10 player this season, but thankfully we're only in December and there's a long way to go. Even with his struggles, he has still been a top 20 player in the league this season. Nets fans have criticized Harden a ton this season so I'm not sure wtf you're on about.

There's plenty of Nets fans in this thread acting like Harden is still a superstar.

Should we talk about how Bulls fans are viewing Vuc and Ball?

Very good players players that compliment our two all-NBA talent wings perfectly. Vuc is playing much better recently and Lonzo is an elite 3 and D guard with great passing ability. Harden’s style of ball-hogging style of play on the Bulls.

[WindyCityBorn]

Yes, when you get a bonafide superstar and it costs you Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic, you do it regardless of the roster you have. This idea that the Bulls are so good that they should just move forward with what they have is absolutely bonkers. Bulls fans might think they are, but nobody outside of Chicago believes their a legitimate threat to anything outside of the first round.

But no, Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic are too valuable to the Bulls. That's insanity. Grab the superstar, figure out the rest.

That would be true, but James Harden is no longer a superstar.

Is Damian Lillard no longer a Superstar?

Please answer the question.

By every metric he has been horrible this season. In fact, worse than Harden.

Nope he isn’t either. Looks just as washed as Harden if not more.

[YamaChan]

The hivemind takes on this forum are absolutely hilarious sometimes.

I laughed HARD at this notion Harden alone isn't way more valuable than freaking Lonzo Ball and Vucevic.

One player has a league MVP and was the MVP frontrunner last season until his hamstring gave out, as well as one of the most prolific offensive weapons in basketball history...the others are freaking Lonzo Ball and Nikola Vucevic.

Are you kidding me...is what I want to say, but I know that this forum is actually serious about these ice cold takes.

This is just blatant Harden hate, and people are hopping on that bandwagon during his slow start to the season.

Oh look, he almost had a 40-point triple double. Another day in the office.

Even before tonight, both Lavine and DeRozen are averaging 26/5/4 on 49% shooting. Neither are historically known as great defenders.
When you add in age, position, fit, and contracts, what do the Bulls actually gain? Too many people are caught up on the name, while ignoring the fit. Sounds like the Lakers.

Guess what. I don't care. It's a pathetically small sample size, and if Harden gets unfairly criticized constantly for being a "playoff choker", even though most of his losses came against the most dominant team since the Jordan Bulls, what do we say about all of DeRozen's many chokes?

Those numbers are actual child's play to what Harden has done and still can do when he's on his A game. Harden is literally still in his prime, not some over-the-hill bench warmer like Carmelo.

I'm not caught up on a name; I'm recognizing the fact that one player is one of the greatest offensive weapons EVER, while the other players will literally be footnotes when people look back at this era of basketball.

There are levels to this.

[WindyCityBorn]

Lavine and DeRozan have both been better than Harden this season.

Bulls don't need him.

I literally would not trade Harden for both of them straight up. Even if you added a FRP.

Cool. You keep your washed up superstar that has never won anything. I’ll take the guy that is 5 years younger and significantly better. LaVine. DeRozan is better Harden too. I know it must hurt to acknowledge. Without KD the Nets would be entering rebuilding. Have fun paying him $50 million a year to play like a fringe all-star.