Should Fred Van Vleet be an all-star?

[JujitsuFlip]

Agree that Trae, DDR, Lavine and Harden are in. Holiday will also be in as Milwaukee deserves 2 all-stars and he's more deserving than Middleton.

So 1 spot left. FVV has been better than Garland, Beal, Ball and the Celtics don't deserve 2 all-stars (Tatum will get in). Again, there is no narrative that "this is not a discussion". He's very much in the running and in my opinion doesn't get in if:
- Coaches/leage give Beal his lifetime achievement award even though he doesn't deserve it this year
- Coaches/league bring in Lamelo for TV/fan purposes even though FVV has been better
- Coaches/league want to perpetuate the Boston myth with 2 all-stars even though Brown and the Celtics don't deserve 2 all-stars

If you're going by play and impact this year, FVV is an all-star in that last spot.

If it comes down to Garland and the Cavs are fighting for home court advantage versus FVV and the Raps are fighting for a back half play-in spot... There is zero doubt in my mind Garland is the clear cut choice, especially since the game is in Cleveland.

If that's how you decide, then Kyle Lowry probably has a better claim to the spot than Garland. Miami has a better record, has had way more injuries to deal with to their star players Butler and Bam, and Lowry is the constant on that team through all of this.

Look, I'm not saying Garland doesn't deserve it. He's been great this year. But from an individual standpoint, there is no way you can say he's been better than FVV. My pushback was to your initial point that there are way more players deserving of the spot and implying he shouldn't be in the conversation. Given our back and forth, I think you'd cede that it's a lot closer than your initial take implied, no?

Lowry at 13 PPG is gonna be a tough sell, I think.

If the Raptors stay at the back end of the play-in, no I don't think it's very close for FVV.

If FVV had his numbers on a top 4 seed or the ASG was in Toronto or FVV was like a 30 PPG guy, maybe. But with the raw slash numbers being so close to other guys, some with much higher chance at lifetime achievement awards, I do not beleive as of today (January 5th) FVV has any serious consideration to make the ASG.

If FVV is as good and as impactful as Raps fans believe, he should be able to propel the Raps to a higher seed by beating the Bucks, Jazz, Suns, Bucks again, Heat, Mavs, Wizards, Blazers, Hornets, Bulls, Heat again, Hawks, Heat a 3rd time, Bulls again, Hawks again, and Hornets again over the next few weeks... Just in time for the East HC's to pick the reserves.

[everdiso]

Fred is better than Simmons offensively.

And also elite defensively.

Simmons is a former number 1 draft pick and Rookie of the Year. He's dated celebs, and is repped by Klutch. He's a star, Fred's not.

Simmons also won an NBA title with his stellar clutch play, shooting 40% from 3 in the finals while holding Steph to 34% from deep with his pesky defense. Oh wait...

Hmm which guy do you want - the guy who was church 4th quarter guy in the championship finals, or the guy who was benched in the 4th quarters of round 1?

Tough call!

[nate33]

If you go by record it should be Jrue Holiday. He’s low key been balling. Silver has turned the league into a theatrical experience, so whoever draws the most attention are included over deserving players.

He's in the conversation.

But do you give a great team 2 All-Stars before giving 1 All-Star bid to a mid-tier team like Toronto, Washington, Charlotte and Boston?

If that 2nd best player is pretty darn elite in his own right (like Harden or Levine) then, yes, you give the great team 2 All-Stars. But Milwaukee isn't really set up that way. They have one transcendent superstar plus two guys that are good, but not really elite. Maybe Jrue and/or Middleton deserve it, but maybe not. I think the argument can go both ways.

Let's face it. Milwaukee is 4-4 in games without Giannis, and one win came against Miami without Butler and Bam, and another came from the Mavs without Luka. If Giannis wasn't on the team, would we be discussing Jrue as an All-Star? The Bucks would probably be a bit below .500.

[bisme37]

We haven't had a massive, heated Raps thread in a while. The board feels more like home today haha.

What happens when people can't have a reasonable position of 'He'll be consideration'. Rather, "it's not even close".

Seems a regular stance when it comes to Raptor players.

I wasn't complaining. And I'm on record in this thread saying Fred is deserving of an allstar nod.

While we're on the topic, I know the GB has given the Raps a hard time over the years. Didn't give Lowry his due, etc. But I think a lot of fanbases get frustrated by that stuff and I hope Raps fans don't take it too personally.

As a Celtics fan, just in the last two weeks we've had 3 threads critical of Tatum and/or Brown with people saying stuff that makes absolutely no sense at all. First there was a thread with an incomplete and out-of-context quote from Brown, where people ignored the actual quote and just piled on for the fun of it. Then there was a "what's wrong with Tatum" thread, while he was in protocol and not playing. And a few C's fans who watch him every night tried to answer the question, but others were just fishing for and-1s with Kobe jokes etc. Then Brown had a big game while Tatum was out and that led to a thread about how Tatum sucks and Brown is better. Then a few of us made detailed posts explaining why Tatum is objectively the better player in virtually every way, but people decided to be willfully ignorant and ignore all that and just keep saying what they were saying.

And I'm sure fans of most other teams feel the same frustration from time to time. You watch all the games and look at all the stats and read all the quotes and analysis. And then a bunch of jerks jump in to explain whatever it is with random insults apropos of nothing.

To me it's a symptom of people wanting to hear themselves talk and get attention and pretend to be experts on things, Rather than listening and learning and being flexible with their opinions when evidence is presented. I mean my Celts have been pretty mediocre and not especially exciting this year, so I don't know why everyone tries to act like they've been watching them enough to really have strong opinions. Not to mention the recent threads where RGM users are saying they don't watch any NBA games at all.

I try to appreciate threads like this because they remind me to not do that. If I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't talk about it. I read and learn. So while threads like this are annoying, they help me be a better poster and member of the community here. And I've learned to not take them personally, because it's not exclusive to any particular team.

[GeorgeSears]

Following last year's model, usually 6-7 guards are chosen per conference.

IMO for the East it's something like this:

Tier 1 (guaranteed): LaVine, Derozan, Trae Young, LaMelo

Tier 2( Probably): Harden, Jaylen Brown, Bradley Beal, FVV

Tier 3 (Long shots): Malcolm Brogdon, Garland

FVV belongs in tier 2, and he's had a better year than Bradley Beal and Jalyen Brown, and I would say Harden as well. But they have bigger names and the Wizards and Celtics have identical record with the Raptors. The Raptors are going to need to string together a bunch of wins in the next couple of weeks to justify FVV's selection.

If I had to guess, the eastern all-stars will be: LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and J.Brown and Beal with FVV not making it.

[Big J]

Simmons is a former number 1 draft pick and Rookie of the Year. He's dated celebs, and is repped by Klutch. He's a star, Fred's not.

Simmons also won an NBA title with his stellar clutch play, shooting 40% from 3 in the finals while holding Steph to 34% from deep with his pesky defense. Oh wait...

Hmm which guy do you want - the guy who was church 4th quarter guy in the championship finals, or the guy who was benched in the 4th quarters of round 1?

Tough call!

Simmons has made 3 All Star games, and all NBA & Defense Teams. Fred played a bench role on a championship team.

[DreamTeam09]

Simmons also won an NBA title with his stellar clutch play, shooting 40% from 3 in the finals while holding Steph to 34% from deep with his pesky defense. Oh wait...

Hmm which guy do you want - the guy who was church 4th quarter guy in the championship finals, or the guy who was benched in the 4th quarters of round 1?

Tough call!

Simmons has made 3 All Star games, and all NBA & Defense Teams. Fred played a bench role on a championship team.

If the Sixers traded Ben Simmons for FVV do they up a peg on the totem pole or not ?

[JujitsuFlip]

Following last year's model, usually 6-7 guards are chosen per conference.

IMO for the East it's something like this:

Tier 1 (guaranteed): LaVine, Derozan, Trae Young, LaMelo

Tier 2( Probably): Harden, Jaylen Brown, Bradley Beal, FVV

Tier 3 (Long shots): Malcolm Brogdon, Garland

FVV belongs in tier 2, and he's had a better year than Bradley Beal and Jalyen Brown, and I would say Harden as well. But they have bigger names and the Wizards and Celtics have identical record with the Raptors. The Raptors are going to need to string together a bunch of wins in the next couple of weeks to justify FVV's selection.

If I had to guess, the eastern all-stars will be: LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and J.Brown and Beal with FVV not making it.

Unless you're speaking on injury/covid alternates, it's impossible to land 7 guards on either team.

[GeorgeSears]

Following last year's model, usually 6-7 guards are chosen per conference.

IMO for the East it's something like this:

Tier 1 (guaranteed): LaVine, Derozan, Trae Young, LaMelo

Tier 2( Probably): Harden, Jaylen Brown, Bradley Beal, FVV

Tier 3 (Long shots): Malcolm Brogdon, Garland

FVV belongs in tier 2, and he's had a better year than Bradley Beal and Jalyen Brown, and I would say Harden as well. But they have bigger names and the Wizards and Celtics have identical record with the Raptors. The Raptors are going to need to string together a bunch of wins in the next couple of weeks to justify FVV's selection.

If I had to guess, the eastern all-stars will be: LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and J.Brown and Beal with FVV not making it.

Unless you're speaking on injury/covid alternates, it's impossible to land 7 guards on either team.

Correct. I put 6-7 because last year the East had 6 and the West had 7 (COVID related). It's generally 6, which would make FVV's chances slightly worse. Because then LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and Brown would be the likely choices IMO.

[Feed Your Head]

Following last year's model, usually 6-7 guards are chosen per conference.

IMO for the East it's something like this:

Tier 1 (guaranteed): LaVine, Derozan, Trae Young, LaMelo

Tier 2( Probably): Harden, Jaylen Brown, Bradley Beal, FVV

Tier 3 (Long shots): Malcolm Brogdon, Garland

FVV belongs in tier 2, and he's had a better year than Bradley Beal and Jalyen Brown, and I would say Harden as well. But they have bigger names and the Wizards and Celtics have identical record with the Raptors. The Raptors are going to need to string together a bunch of wins in the next couple of weeks to justify FVV's selection.

If I had to guess, the eastern all-stars will be: LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and J.Brown and Beal with FVV not making it.

Unless you're speaking on injury/covid alternates, it's impossible to land 7 guards on either team.

Correct. I put 6-7 because last year the East had 6 and the West had 7 (COVID related). It's generally 6, which would make FVV's chances slightly worse. Because then LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and Brown would be the likely choices IMO.

I think the last spot will go to FVV, he does it as the best player for the Raps. I can’t see the Celtics getting two guys with a .500 record (though I expect it to get better), and Tatum is a lock i’d assume. FVV has played in 8 more games, as well, which matters I think.

[ForeverTFC]

I just can't see Boston not having an all-star and Tatum is a better player than Brown.

Agree that Beal has been much better as of late. If FVV doesn't make it, my bet is that it's the Beal scenario.

Why should Boston categorically have an All-Star? They currently have a sub-.500 record and are ranked 10th in the conference, a half-game ahead of New York at 11th. If Toronto and Washington are ranked 7th and 8th with a 26-24 record when the selections are made, while Boston is sitting at 11th place with a 23-27 record, why should Tatum make it over Beal and Van Vleet?

Statistically, Van Vleet looks better than Tatum, and Beal is about the same.

This. I really like Tatum (have him in my dynasty league) and love Brown. Wish either were a Raptor.

But is Boston guaranteed an all star? I can't see why.

They got 2 all-stars last year at .500.

I'm not saying he 100% deserves it. I'm just saying there is no possible scenario I see that the NBA and its coaches don't have a Celtic on the all-star team, especially when one is a star the league wants to market and bet on. Celtics as a franchise always tend punch above their weight due to their history in the league.

[ForeverTFC]

Unless you're speaking on injury/covid alternates, it's impossible to land 7 guards on either team.

Correct. I put 6-7 because last year the East had 6 and the West had 7 (COVID related). It's generally 6, which would make FVV's chances slightly worse. Because then LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and Brown would be the likely choices IMO.

I think the last spot will go to FVV, he does it as the best player for the Raps. I can’t see the Celtics getting two guys with a .500 record (though I expect it to get better), and Tatum is a lock i’d assume. FVV has played in 8 more games, as well, which matters I think.

I don't see how Jrue doesn't make the team - Bucks will get two all-stars. We are over-rating Lamelo and Brown's chances here. I think both FVV and Beal have a higher chance of getting in than those guys.

[Feed Your Head]

Correct. I put 6-7 because last year the East had 6 and the West had 7 (COVID related). It's generally 6, which would make FVV's chances slightly worse. Because then LaVine, Derozan, Young, LaMelo, Harden and Brown would be the likely choices IMO.

I think the last spot will go to FVV, he does it as the best player for the Raps. I can’t see the Celtics getting two guys with a .500 record (though I expect it to get better), and Tatum is a lock i’d assume. FVV has played in 8 more games, as well, which matters I think.

I don't see how Jrue doesn't make the team - Bucks will get two all-stars. We are over-rating Lamelo and Brown's chances here. I think both FVV and Beal have a higher chance of getting in than those guys.

I think Jrue/FVV/Beal all make it, personally.

[Big J]

Hmm which guy do you want - the guy who was church 4th quarter guy in the championship finals, or the guy who was benched in the 4th quarters of round 1?

Tough call!

Simmons has made 3 All Star games, and all NBA & Defense Teams. Fred played a bench role on a championship team.

If the Sixers traded Ben Simmons for FVV do they up a peg on the totem pole or not ?

No, Daryl wants a star, Fred's more of a C.J. McCollum level guy.

[ForeverTFC]

Simmons has made 3 All Star games, and all NBA & Defense Teams. Fred played a bench role on a championship team.

If the Sixers traded Ben Simmons for FVV do they up a peg on the totem pole or not ?

No, Daryl wants a star, Fred's more of a C.J. McCollum level guy.

FVV is one of the best guard defenders in the league and is 14th in assists. CJ wishes he was on his level

[everdiso]

Simmons also won an NBA title with his stellar clutch play, shooting 40% from 3 in the finals while holding Steph to 34% from deep with his pesky defense. Oh wait...

Hmm which guy do you want - the guy who was church 4th quarter guy in the championship finals, or the guy who was benched in the 4th quarters of round 1?

Tough call!

Simmons has made 3 All Star games, and all NBA & Defense Teams. Fred played a bench role on a championship team.

NBA Finals: Fred 32.5mpg, 17.0usg%, 60.7ts%, 14.0ppg

[payton2kemp]

I easily wouldnt do it, lol. Im not entirely sure Simmons is clearly a better player; a better talent, sure, but current on court impact? Not entirely clear. If he is better, he's not better enough to overcome the character gap. FVV is the leader of the Raps and one of the culture setters while Simmons is ruining Philly's season. It's a no brainer no for the Raps

Of course the Raps should do that trade. Hell, they did it before with fantastic results when they traded away high character DeFrozen for more talented head case Kawhi and his Uncle Dennis. Talent wins in this league.

Fred is better than Simmons offensively.

And also elite defensively.

Raptors are pretty much a lottery team with FVV, with Simmons the Sixers were a first seed and are struggling this year. He makes an impact in so many ways. Raptors would be stupid not to make that trade if it was offered.

[payton2kemp]

Hmm which guy do you want - the guy who was church 4th quarter guy in the championship finals, or the guy who was benched in the 4th quarters of round 1?

Tough call!

Simmons has made 3 All Star games, and all NBA & Defense Teams. Fred played a bench role on a championship team.

NBA Finals: Fred 32.5mpg, 17.0usg%, 60.7ts%, 14.0ppg

Yea, he just needed a prime Kawhi, Lowry, Siakam, and DPOY in Gasol and another great defender in Ibaka. You would think those guys had nothing to do with it. FVV was a 4th option.

As a first option with FVV this year they are a lottery team, just like last year. What has he done without Kawhi/Gasol/Ibaka/Lowry?

[JujitsuFlip]

I think the last spot will go to FVV, he does it as the best player for the Raps. I can’t see the Celtics getting two guys with a .500 record (though I expect it to get better), and Tatum is a lock i’d assume. FVV has played in 8 more games, as well, which matters I think.

I don't see how Jrue doesn't make the team - Bucks will get two all-stars. We are over-rating Lamelo and Brown's chances here. I think both FVV and Beal have a higher chance of getting in than those guys.

I think Jrue/FVV/Beal all make it, personally.

Mathematically, doesn't seem possible with Trae most likely a starter and Harden, LaVine and DDR essentially locks.

[Green Backpack]

He's making a hell of a case as of late, but he probably won't get the nod. Maybe if there's an injury filler.