Can a case be made that Larry Bird was the GOAT ?

[Jaqua92]

No.

You can make a case for a GOAT tier peak. But that's it.

Top 6 all time player though.

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[kcktiny]

Bird's defense has always been an interesting topic for me. Granted, I didn't start watching NBA until mid 80s when Bird was already arguably past his defensive prime, but I never thought he was a great defender. This is also born out in the limited RAPM data we have.

79/80: 545 defensive possessions, -2.94 DRAPM
84/85: 3974 defensive possessions, -0.89 DRAPM
87/88: 3557 defensive possessions, -3.07 DRAPM

From 1979-80 to 1987-88, over a long 9 years, Boston was the 2nd best defensive team in the league, among 25 teams (only Milwaukee was better defensively), also allowed the 2nd lowest 2pt FG% over all that time.

Bird played - by far - the most minutes on that great defensive team during that time, some 6500 minutes more (that's like 2 seasons worth of minutes more) than any other Celtic. He alone played 15%-16% of the team's total minutes played.

Those that saw him play the most voted him all-defensive 2nd team for 3 straight seasons (1981-82 to 1983-84), and those 9 seasons he grabbed the 2nd most defensive rebounds and the 4th most steals among all players in the league.

But your opinion that a player you did not see play was not a great defensive player is "born out" but some plus/minus number on limited data over that time likely calculated by someone who also did not see him play means he wasn't a great defender?

You by chance sell real estate in Florida?

Likely the only SF/PF that was a better defender during that time was Bobby Jones. And very few were as smart a defender as Bird.

[SNPA]

Nowadays his lack of foot speed and lateral movement would nerf him on the defensive end. He'd be hunted on switches relentlessly and while he was a very smart player, there are plenty of smart guys walking around in the league. He was a very good rebounder so that's translates and he's 6'9 so, again he could bang when needed.

That said, his speed would cause problems for his team. Imagine him trying to cover Ja on a switch, or when nightmare SFs like OG or Mikal Bridges lock him? Dudes like that didn't really exist back in the 80s. How would he have done in a matchup VS young (Miami) LeBron?

It's not hate, just facts.

I guess this SF didn’t exist?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html


Hunting Bird would fail. You’d piss him off. It’d be much better to put the guy he was defending in the far corner and hope he doesn’t come across and steal a pass.

2 things:

-Yes Nique was there and he used to cook the Celts, so I'm not sure what your point was. Now, Bird also would also drop numbers on ATL as well but that leads me to me other point....

-I'm talking about defense. Mikal, Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart and OG would be nightmares for Larry. The length and speed/strength those guys for example have would be a nightmare.

You need to think of this in terms of switching. Teams didn't do that back in the 80s....

For example if Boston played the Suns, Mikal would have chief priority for Bird, but the Celts would switch and hunt for Booker maybe. PHX would counter by trying to get Ayton out on him. Do you think Bird is taking Ayton off the dribble? I'm not sure and I'm also not sure that he can just shoot over him as 7 footers that can leap out and take wings/guards didn't happen back in 84.

It's not his faut as a lot of guys would have trouble handling the speed and pace of today's game. You can't hide slow players in the playoffs. Look what happened to Rudy Gobert...3 time DPOTY and the Clips cooked him last summer. You think Bird is gonna handle the likes of PG13/Kawhi or Trae/Dame (on switches) easily? Not likely.

You really believe this.

I’m out.

[Edrees]

He has only 2 finals losses. Some would use that narrative to put him as the 2nd greatest of all time, since others in the top 10 have either 2 or more finals losses, which apparantly is the metric to place you in the GOAT conversation as we all know.

[CobraCommander]

He has only 2 finals losses. Some would use that narrative to put him as the 2nd greatest of all time, since others in the top 10 have either 2 or more finals losses, which apparantly is the metric to place you in the GOAT conversation as we all know.

Some said he was equal to Lamar O-damn...never mind

[Slim Charless]

He has only 2 finals losses. Some would use that narrative to put him as the 2nd greatest of all time, since others in the top 10 have either 2 or more finals losses, which apparantly is the metric to place you in the GOAT conversation as we all know.

Some said he was equal to Lamar O-damn...never mind

I guess this SF didn’t exist?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkido01.html


Hunting Bird would fail. You’d piss him off. It’d be much better to put the guy he was defending in the far corner and hope he doesn’t come across and steal a pass.

2 things:

-Yes Nique was there and he used to cook the Celts, so I'm not sure what your point was. Now, Bird also would also drop numbers on ATL as well but that leads me to me other point....

-I'm talking about defense. Mikal, Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart and OG would be nightmares for Larry. The length and speed/strength those guys for example have would be a nightmare.

You need to think of this in terms of switching. Teams didn't do that back in the 80s....

For example if Boston played the Suns, Mikal would have chief priority for Bird, but the Celts would switch and hunt for Booker maybe. PHX would counter by trying to get Ayton out on him. Do you think Bird is taking Ayton off the dribble? I'm not sure and I'm also not sure that he can just shoot over him as 7 footers that can leap out and take wings/guards didn't happen back in 84.

It's not his faut as a lot of guys would have trouble handling the speed and pace of today's game. You can't hide slow players in the playoffs. Look what happened to Rudy Gobert...3 time DPOTY and the Clips cooked him last summer. You think Bird is gonna handle the likes of PG13/Kawhi or Trae/Dame (on switches) easily? Not likely.

You really believe this.

I’m out.

Gotcha so:



You guys are welcome to debate this and attack the points that I'm making. Sorry, I just don't see him handling the switch heavy defenses that are in the league nowadays. Him being smart is nice, but that won't cut it against the likes of Ben Simmons, OG etc, etc etc. He's also gonna be hunted by the opposing team's best perimeter guy.

[DrCoach]

No

Loved him as a player

[Hellcrooner]

his career ended at basically the same moment than his greatest rival injuries/aids.

so.

lets see.

his greatest rival

BEat him in the ncaa

beat him 5 rings to 3 with similar rosters, maybe celtics depth was even better.

beat him 2-1 in direct nba finals.

so

No

0 chance at Goat .


You can argue for his biggest rival being the goat tough ( he is for me).

[70sFan]

You make it sound like Bird is the only scorer who impacted games in other ways. That's plainly wrong. MJ, Durant, Kareem all impacted games in other ways, and there's no reason to believe Bird's impact was somehow greater. Feel free to keep harping on Adrian Dantley-strawman if that makes you feel good.

That's not how it works. Certain scorers can have various degree of non-scoring impact. I don't know why you put Durant along with MJ and Kareem - these two definitely had massive non-scoring impact and they are much better than Durant as well.

If you don't understand the difference between KD and Bird non-scoring game, compare it to Curry. Durant and Curry are comparable scorers (you may even argue that KD is better), but their non-scoring game isn't close. Bird was in the same mold that Curry is. Curry and Bird are not scorers, their scoring is only additional thing to what they do on basketball court.

I don't have Bird as a GOAT candidate and I feel he's somehow overrated by most fans, but he was better basketball player at his peak than Durant.

Again, what makes Adrian Dantley worse than Bird but not KD if scoring numbers is all that matters?

I think you really underestimate what Durant brings to the court without ever touching the ball. I wonder if you have ever watched Kevin Durant play? Here is a helpful video to get you started. Good luck!

Watch on YouTube

Yeah, I never watched Durant play. What's next?

Also, what this video is supposed to prove? Seriously?

[Petergrifindor]

Watch on YouTube

[Diop]

If he didn't injure his back he might have been a chance.

[celtxman]

Tell me this...what did Bird do that was the best ever? That even to this day, you say: "xxx is good at yyyy, but Bird was the best ever." Bird is a legit top 10 player because of his overall excellence in the game and high BBIQ, but I don't see him as GOAT without being able to pinpoint what he was the GOAT at.

The first and foremost thing is making others better. It is clear as I wrote about earlier in this thread. Also shooting. No player in his ERA ever was allowed to do what Curry did in expanding the three point shot. Bird was an all time great shooter and passer

[The Rebel]

He has only 2 finals losses. Some would use that narrative to put him as the 2nd greatest of all time, since others in the top 10 have either 2 or more finals losses, which apparantly is the metric to place you in the GOAT conversation as we all know.

Some said he was equal to Lamar O-damn...never mind

2 things:

-Yes Nique was there and he used to cook the Celts, so I'm not sure what your point was. Now, Bird also would also drop numbers on ATL as well but that leads me to me other point....

-I'm talking about defense. Mikal, Ben Simmons, Marcus Smart and OG would be nightmares for Larry. The length and speed/strength those guys for example have would be a nightmare.

You need to think of this in terms of switching. Teams didn't do that back in the 80s....

For example if Boston played the Suns, Mikal would have chief priority for Bird, but the Celts would switch and hunt for Booker maybe. PHX would counter by trying to get Ayton out on him. Do you think Bird is taking Ayton off the dribble? I'm not sure and I'm also not sure that he can just shoot over him as 7 footers that can leap out and take wings/guards didn't happen back in 84.

It's not his faut as a lot of guys would have trouble handling the speed and pace of today's game. You can't hide slow players in the playoffs. Look what happened to Rudy Gobert...3 time DPOTY and the Clips cooked him last summer. You think Bird is gonna handle the likes of PG13/Kawhi or Trae/Dame (on switches) easily? Not likely.

You really believe this.

I’m out.

Gotcha so:



You guys are welcome to debate this and attack the points that I'm making. Sorry, I just don't see him handling the switch heavy defenses that are in the league nowadays. Him being smart is nice, but that won't cut it against the likes of Ben Simmons, OG etc, etc etc. He's also gonna be hunted by the opposing team's best perimeter guy.

LMAO, nobody is going to argue and debate someone who thinks that humans have evolved physically in the last 40 years, especially when it has been proven that testosterone and growth hormones produced by the body have declined for generations.

As for today's defense, maybe you don't know this but there was no such thing as a flagrant foul when Bird played. Today's players not being able to touch Bird would have made life so easy he would have spent a year playing left handed because it was so easy for him.

[TravisScott55]

No

[Slim Charless]

Some said he was equal to Lamar O-damn...never mind

You really believe this.

I’m out.

Gotcha so:



You guys are welcome to debate this and attack the points that I'm making. Sorry, I just don't see him handling the switch heavy defenses that are in the league nowadays. Him being smart is nice, but that won't cut it against the likes of Ben Simmons, OG etc, etc etc. He's also gonna be hunted by the opposing team's best perimeter guy.

LMAO, nobody is going to argue and debate someone who thinks that humans have evolved physically in the last 40 years, especially when it has been proven that testosterone and growth hormones produced by the body have declined for generations.

As for today's defense, maybe you don't know this but there was no such thing as a flagrant foul when Bird played. Today's players not being able to touch Bird would have made life so easy he would have spent a year playing left handed because it was so easy for him.

Ummmm ok bro.


That addressed none of what I said but thanks for the useless rambling about fouls and evolution. I never made any of those points.

I'll make it very simple for you:

What does Larry avg today? Also what are his defensive numbers (DWS, DBPM).

He'd be hunted on defense over and over.

[Dave DaButcher]

Read on Twitter

?s=21

“After three days of rookie camp, I realized this League is nothing and I will dominate it.”

[SNPA]

Larry Bird played against plumbers.

-you know who

[Sothron]

If we remove centers then Bird is my GOAT. If the game is on the line and I had to put the ball in any one player's hands to win the game it is Larry Legend.

[Slim Charless]

If we remove centers then Bird is my GOAT. If the game is on the line and I had to put the ball in any one player's hands to win the game it is Larry Legend.

There's this Jordan guy I heard was pretty good. Might wanna check his YouTube highlights.

[a8bil]

Tell me this...what did Bird do that was the best ever? That even to this day, you say: "xxx is good at yyyy, but Bird was the best ever." Bird is a legit top 10 player because of his overall excellence in the game and high BBIQ, but I don't see him as GOAT without being able to pinpoint what he was the GOAT at.

The first and foremost thing is making others better. It is clear as I wrote about earlier in this thread. Also shooting. No player in his ERA ever was allowed to do what Curry did in expanding the three point shot. Bird was an all time great shooter and passer

So, do you think Bird was the best ever at making his teammates better? Best ever shooter? Best ever passer? I would rank him very highly in all of these categories, but would have a tough time calling him best ever. Perhaps that's the point...the fact that he would rank highly in all of these categories is what makes his case for GOAT.