Bam is soft

[BenoUdrihFTL]

We get it. Butler isn't a true #1, more of a Klay-tier player. Bam is overrated. Herro sucks. The Heat just somehow came within 2 games of a chip in 2020 and are a 1st seed in 2022 because... probably because Udonis Haslem's 15th man player/coach contributions are just THAT impactful on winning

[Vampirate]

Imo Butler is a #2 on a title winning team, Bam is a #3.

Yes #2 type players can go off, Klay is a good example.

But imo, the Heat are missing that true #1 option since Wade/Lebron.

Butler & Klay are completely different players with different roles. Butler was creating offense for himself and others while Klay is more of a complementary scorer/finisher. Majority of his scoring was assisted while Jimmy was unassisted, creating everything, either for himself or others. Jimmy was getting way more defensive attention in the Finals, especially without it's 2nd/3rd best player. Klay is extremely overrated IMO.


Alot of Klay's success comes from not having to worry about creating for himself while using the defensive attention given to Curry, to his advantage

This isn't a Klay vs Butler discussion, it's just pointing to the fact that both players can just go off, lead their team to a playoff win.

[rate_]

Spoiler:

Imo Butler is a #2 on a title winning team, Bam is a #3.

Yes #2 type players can go off, Klay is a good example.

But imo, the Heat are missing that true #1 option since Wade/Lebron.

Butler & Klay are completely different players with different roles. Butler was creating offense for himself and others while Klay is more of a complementary scorer/finisher. Majority of his scoring was assisted while Jimmy was unassisted, creating everything, either for himself or others. Jimmy was getting way more defensive attention in the Finals, especially without it's 2nd/3rd best player. Klay is extremely overrated IMO.


Alot of Klay's success comes from not having to worry about creating for himself while using the defensive attention given to Curry, to his advantage

This isn't a Klay vs Butler discussion, it's just pointing to the fact that both players can just go off, lead their team to a playoff win.

You just compared both players as being quintessential #2's on a title team which I disagreed with, especially with both having completely different responsibilities on offense. How can you say they both have the same role when one's offensive load is way heavier than the other? lol

[rate_]

We get it. Butler isn't a true #1, more of a Klay-tier player. Bam is overrated. Herro sucks. The Heat just somehow came within 2 games of a chip in 2020 and are a 1st seed in 2022 because... probably because Udonis Haslem's 15th man player/coach contributions are just THAT impactful on winning

They'd say because of Pat Riley/Erik Spoelstra as if you don't need talent on the team to thrive in today's game. They're the only ones that get constant credit/recognition from pundits when the Heat are featured in the national media.

[kuclas]

We get it. Butler isn't a true #1, more of a Klay-tier player. Bam is overrated. Herro sucks. The Heat just somehow came within 2 games of a chip in 2020 and are a 1st seed in 2022 because... probably because Udonis Haslem's 15th man player/coach contributions are just THAT impactful on winning

Heat to me more like the 2003-2006 pistons era. They can do a lot of damage in the playoffs and even win a title.
Well coach team. A lot of similarities. That pistons team won 54 games. Heat probably will win around that much

Billups (jimmy butler role) rip Hamilton (herro) combination of Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace (bam a). Just solid team.

Of course everyone thought the lakers would steam roll the pistons including me. Although I think the karl Malone injury player a factor. Pistons just played better the entire series and 100% deserved the title

[Vampirate]

Spoiler:

Butler & Klay are completely different players with different roles. Butler was creating offense for himself and others while Klay is more of a complementary scorer/finisher. Majority of his scoring was assisted while Jimmy was unassisted, creating everything, either for himself or others. Jimmy was getting way more defensive attention in the Finals, especially without it's 2nd/3rd best player. Klay is extremely overrated IMO.


Alot of Klay's success comes from not having to worry about creating for himself while using the defensive attention given to Curry, to his advantage

This isn't a Klay vs Butler discussion, it's just pointing to the fact that both players can just go off, lead their team to a playoff win.

You just compared both players as being quintessential #2's on a title team which I disagreed with, especially with both having completely different responsibilities on offense.

Tbh I think as Miami fans the measuring stick should be Prime Dwayne Wade for you guys.

Butler is awesome (and father'd Toronto Derozan a lot in his Chicago days). He's a true 2 way All Star, how good of an All Star is up to how you view him.

Lowry was awesome in his Toronto days but looks to be more of the leadership/table setter from what I know.

Bam at this point in his career to me is a #3 on a championship team. That is still an All Star. This is of course an assessment of this year.

Now before Miami fans go after me keep in mind he's 24 not 27 or 28, it's completely possible he ascends into a higher tier of players as he grows older.

Early first 4 seasons Derozan was regarded as an ineffecient chucker, Bam if he keeps improving could turn into a 6"9 Bosh type player (maybe higher *shrugs*), but one who's an elite defender.

In other words the book has yet to be written on how good of a player he can eventually be.

[rate_]

We get it. Butler isn't a true #1, more of a Klay-tier player. Bam is overrated. Herro sucks. The Heat just somehow came within 2 games of a chip in 2020 and are a 1st seed in 2022 because... probably because Udonis Haslem's 15th man player/coach contributions are just THAT impactful on winning

Heat to me more like the 2003-2006 pistons era. They can do a lot of damage in the playoffs and even win a title.
Well coach team. A lot of similarities. That pistons team won 54 games. Heat probably will win around that much

Billups (jimmy butler role) rip Hamilton (herro) combination of Ben Wallace/Rasheed Wallace (bam a). Just solid team.

Of course everyone thought the lakers would steam roll the pistons including me. Although I think the karl Malone injury player a factor. Pistons just played better the entire series and 100% deserved the title

Heat are much better than those Pistons teams offensively. It's an odd comparison, even from a personnel standpoint. Rip Hamilton was a midrange monster who has nowhere the ball skills as Herro. Jimmy is a better individual talent than Billups. Timmy Spurs are a much better analogy.

[SerialChiller]

Spoiler:

This isn't a Klay vs Butler discussion, it's just pointing to the fact that both players can just go off, lead their team to a playoff win.

You just compared both players as being quintessential #2's on a title team which I disagreed with, especially with both having completely different responsibilities on offense.

Tbh I think as Miami fans the measuring stick should be Prime Dwayne Wade for you guys.

Butler is awesome (and father'd Toronto Derozan a lot in his Chicago days). He's a true 2 way All Star, how good of an All Star is up to how you view him.

Lowry was awesome in his Toronto days but looks to be more of the leadership/table setter from what I know.

Bam at this point in his career to me is a #3 on a championship team. That is still an All Star. This is of course an assessment of this year.

Now before Miami fans go after me keep in mind he's 24 not 27 or 28, it's completely possible he ascends into a higher tier of players as he grows older.

Early first 4 seasons Derozan was regarded as an ineffecient chucker, Bam if he keeps improving could turn into a 6"9 Bosh type player (maybe higher *shrugs*), but one who's an elite defender.

In other words the book has yet to be written on how good of a player he can eventually be.

Unfortunately i dont think were getting that again anytime soon. Thats like once a generation player level. Jimmy and Bam are nowhere close to that, prime Wade was insane. Imagine this Heat team with him instead of Butler as much as I like Jimmy. That team wins it imo.

[rate_]

Spoiler:

This isn't a Klay vs Butler discussion, it's just pointing to the fact that both players can just go off, lead their team to a playoff win.

You just compared both players as being quintessential #2's on a title team which I disagreed with, especially with both having completely different responsibilities on offense.

Tbh I think as Miami fans the measuring stick should be Prime Dwayne Wade for you guys.

Butler is awesome (and father'd Toronto Derozan a lot in his Chicago days). He's a true 2 way All Star, how good of an All Star is up to how you view him.

Lowry was awesome in his Toronto days but looks to be more of the leadership/table setter from what I know.

Bam at this point in his career to me is a #3 on a championship team. That is still an All Star. This is of course an assessment of this year.

Now before Miami fans go after me keep in mind he's 24 not 27 or 28, it's completely possible he ascends into a higher tier of players as he grows older.

Early first 4 seasons Derozan was regarded as an ineffecient chucker, Bam if he keeps improving could turn into a 6"9 Bosh type player (maybe higher *shrugs*), but one who's an elite defender.

In other words the book has yet to be written on how good of a player he can eventually be.

That is extremely rare to have that caliber of player on any team. Wade's peak was arguably only 2nd all time to Jordan at his position. If Herro can somewhat develop into a perennial 25/5/5 while Bam 20/10/3.5 with DPOY defense, that's a good start.

[Vampirate]

Spoiler:

You just compared both players as being quintessential #2's on a title team which I disagreed with, especially with both having completely different responsibilities on offense.

Tbh I think as Miami fans the measuring stick should be Prime Dwayne Wade for you guys.

Butler is awesome (and father'd Toronto Derozan a lot in his Chicago days). He's a true 2 way All Star, how good of an All Star is up to how you view him.

Lowry was awesome in his Toronto days but looks to be more of the leadership/table setter from what I know.

Bam at this point in his career to me is a #3 on a championship team. That is still an All Star. This is of course an assessment of this year.

Now before Miami fans go after me keep in mind he's 24 not 27 or 28, it's completely possible he ascends into a higher tier of players as he grows older.

Early first 4 seasons Derozan was regarded as an ineffecient chucker, Bam if he keeps improving could turn into a 6"9 Bosh type player (maybe higher *shrugs*), but one who's an elite defender.

In other words the book has yet to be written on how good of a player he can eventually be.

That is extremely rare to have that caliber of player on any team. Wade's peak was arguably only 2nd all time to Jordan at his position. If Herro can somewhat develop into a perennial 25/5/5 while Bam 20/10/3.5 with DPOY defense, that's a good start.

Wade, Lebron, Dirk, Jokic, Kawhi, Giannis etc are the tier of players I consider to be true #1 type players. (we can debate where these players rank amongst themselves but you get the idea, imo you need to have a generational player)

As for Trae, Butler, PG13, Lillard etc These are the types of players that are awesome in their own rights but imo are a clear tier below the above mentioned. Basically franchise, but not generational players (trae imo hasn't hit generational)

Then you have players like Jamal Murray, Bam, MPJ (uninjured), Siakam, Jaylen Brown etc. And again, go ahead and debate that Bam crushes Siakam, or this player has more impact than this other player but yeah.

Really the list is

#1 Generational Player
#2. Franchise Player
#3. All Star Player
#4. Fringe All Star player

I actually had to edit this when thinking about it more. And upon thinking about it an Elite Scoring #3 (Kyrie, Klay) type player can win a ship playing with a generational player (Lebron, KD).

[Itzmotto]

Absolutely not....

[Madhouse]

Bam Allstar and DPOY candidate. Not MVP but that's ok.

With Herro that's a really nice core.

[PhilBlackson]

Bam is great but not MVP level, sorry.

[thamadkant]

Good player but not MVP nor a reliable 2nd option star on a contending team. Ayton has dominated him every time they've played in the last 2 seasons also, so does that mean Ayton is an MVP caiber player? No... both arent there yet nor have the first option mentality to be MVP level.

[_qubik]

5th best center maybe after Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, and Towns. With guys like Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Doncic, Morant, Curry, Durant, etc.. Bam doesnt really stand a chance.

Hmm, I get your point, but Bam is clearly more impactful than Towns, and I dare to say he is more effective than Gobert who only has the high level of play on the regular season.

He isnt a textbook definition of All Star or DPOY with 30 points or 3 Blocks, but he is a nice blend of skill and physical tools. Bam is a great player, with or without accolades

[MrBigShot]

We get it. Butler isn't a true #1, more of a Klay-tier player. Bam is overrated. Herro sucks. The Heat just somehow came within 2 games of a chip in 2020 and are a 1st seed in 2022 because... probably because Udonis Haslem's 15th man player/coach contributions are just THAT impactful on winning

I'm throwing you an and1 for this post just for that haslem joke lmao.

To be honest the heat don't really get the credit they deserve this season. But this thread was never going to turn out very well, because when you mention MVP you are discussing players on caliber with Jokic/Embiid/Giannis.

[Vampirate]

5th best center maybe after Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, and Towns. With guys like Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Doncic, Morant, Curry, Durant, etc.. Bam doesnt really stand a chance.

Hmm, I get your point, but Bam is clearly more impactful than Towns, and I dare to say he is more effective than Gobert who only has the high level of play on the regular season.

He isnt a textbook definition of All Star or DPOY with 30 points or 3 Blocks, but he is a nice blend of skill and physical tools. Bam is a great player, with or without accolades

Bam passes my scoring test for all star.

Simply take how many points they score minus how many shots they take. If you are left with 5+ you are looking at an All Star player.

[Deivork]

Bam is probably 3rd best player on a Title contender tier which is still really valuable to have.

Many people in this forum seem too fixed on this logic. It doesn't always work like that.

You know, a true #1..! No, he's 1A...! No, 1B... #3 at best on a championship team... Teams are a human alignment, it's not so mathematic more often than not.

[Madhouse]

5th best center maybe after Jokic, Embiid, Gobert, and Towns. With guys like Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Doncic, Morant, Curry, Durant, etc.. Bam doesnt really stand a chance.

Hmm, I get your point, but Bam is clearly more impactful than Towns, and I dare to say he is more effective than Gobert who only has the high level of play on the regular season.

He isnt a textbook definition of All Star or DPOY with 30 points or 3 Blocks, but he is a nice blend of skill and physical tools. Bam is a great player, with or without accolades

You are really underrating Towns.

[Topofthekey]

I think there are at least 5 or 6 other bigs I take before Adebayo

Jokic
Embiid
Gobert
Mobley
Towns
Ayton