Winning Needs to Matter in MVP Conversation Again

[eyeatoma]

One of the best journalists in the league gets it. Shame he had to win another MVP for people to realize this.

https://theathletic.com/3257867/2022/04/19/nikola-jokic-mvp-nuggets-warriors/

From the article:

But in the interest of contextualizing the conversation that looks likely to come, I spent much of the second half diving into the Basketball-Reference.com annals to get a better sense of the situation here. The following is a breakdown of playoff finishes for all of the league’s 66 MVPs:

Won the championship: 23
Lost in The Finals: Nine
Lost in the conference/division finals: 20*
Lost in the conference semifinals: Eight
Lost in the first round: Five **
Didn’t make the playoffs: One ***

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

[antonac]

You can’t have it both ways. If we’re praising him for carrying a team then you can’t absolve him of blame for losing with that same team. We’re going to look back on his B2B MVP campaign very differently.

I doubt that most reasonable people are having it "both ways". Both your statements are true:

1. He carried a team that would be lotto bound to the 6th seed
2. His team just isn't good enough against any contenders

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Steph "carried" the warriors to 9th. That's not even in the top half. This years Nuggets were quite a bit better than than the Warriors last year. This is probably a good argument for Jokic. Jokic made his team better than an on form Curry scoring 32 ppg and Draymond Green do together. And just for fun it's worth noting Oubre and Wiggins both outscored the Nuggets next best guy. And you had Poole coming off the bench, someone who'd easily be starting for this Nuggets team.

[NetsJets]

I doubt that most reasonable people are having it "both ways". Both your statements are true:

1. He carried a team that would be lotto bound to the 6th seed
2. His team just isn't good enough against any contenders

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Steph "carried" the warriors to 9th. That's not even in the top half. This years Nuggets were quite a bit better than than the Warriors last year. This is probably a good argument for Jokic. Jokic made his team better than an on form Curry scoring 32 ppg and Draymond Green do together. And just for fun it's worth noting Oubre and Wiggins both outscored the Nuggets next best guy. And you had Poole coming off the bench, someone who'd easily be starting for this Nuggets team.

Based on your logic why does Steph not making the playoffs matter? If we can’t critique Jokic’s garbage play in the playoffs?

[IamBBAnalysis]

What’s the solution? Give it to Devin Booker? He’s like the 14th best player in the NBA

Ja? He missed a third of the season and is nowhere near as good

Embiid, Giannis, and Jokic were the 3 best players and all their records were roughly even

The Suns and Grizzlies are better teams. MVP is a ‘best roster’ award it’s for the best player.

Two awards, MVP and some type of best player award. It literally does not make sense giving an mvp to someone on a team that is not at the top. They should set a criteria or just change/clarify the award. I agree Jokic makes no sense. Of course he is great, lots of players are great. So is Doncic or Lebron.

What exactly is wrong with giving the award to a player that is not the best player stats wise? To many the point of the mvp award is to emphase winning and to reward a player for leading his team to victories in the regular season. To me that means if your regular season was not at the top then, while you may be a great player, you are not the most valuable player of the league, you are a great player that was not able to lead your team to greatness in the regular season. It is kind of like you cannot be the finals mvp unless you actually win the finals.

I think there is a clear cut mvp this season since the team won 8 more games than anyone else. You give it to the combo of Paul/Booker. That is the clear choice. They each get it. Why not, that would be fun. When a team dominates the regular season they in turn should dominate the regular season awards.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Joker is the best player when games dont matter. There is nothing wrong with the award and more with the regular season itself. it means lesser and lesser over the years and teams are saving the best of stars for PS.
maybe give MVP a min game requirement like 70 games and if you dont play enough games you dont get qualified for MVP.

Jokic has a playoff career average of 26/11/6 on a 60 TS%, while having a WS/48 of .201 and a BPM of 9.1. He has been to a WCF already and he has yet to play with another all star in his career. Id say no matter if its a regular season game or a playoff game, Jokic is an elite top 5 player without a doubt.

This is the problem, too much focus on stats. MVP's win games, period.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Who does Jokic have on his team? Their second best player missed the entire season. Their 3rd best player missed most of it.

Exactly. They have a mediocre team. Maybe Jokic could provide more value with a better surrounding cast, but the current reality is his team is mediocre, and achieved mediocre results, 11th best record and 48 wins. We shouldn’t be rewarding this type of value, we should be rewarding players who can lead their team to success. This isn’t to take anything away from Jokics individual performances this season, but don’t reward him with this prestigious an award two years in a row when it’s obvious his team is not very good.

They already have an award for best team, dawg. It's called the championship. MVP goes to the best performer of the regular season, which Jokić was by far.

Lol, you just prooved the opposite point. No they don't have a regular-season award for best team.

[USWAY]

One of the best journalists in the league gets it. Shame he had to win another MVP for people to realize this.

https://theathletic.com/3257867/2022/04/19/nikola-jokic-mvp-nuggets-warriors/

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

That was a good read. I do like that he started off with admitting that he doesn't regret his vote, because at the end of the day it is a regular season award.

I think the issue begins when these dudes like Zach Lowe push numbers based narratives such as Jokic being a good defender. That's the type of thing that anyone who watches the games simply knows isn't true. The second stuff like that gets exposed in high-level, playoff basketball, all of the wolves are ready to pounce and tear a guy down. It's a similar thing that's happened to Rudy Gobert. I mean John Hollinger had this guy as his MVP last year. Incredible defender, the numbers inflated him to this untouchable status, and because of it when he didn't he didn't perform in a role he wasn't suited for, he was torn down to the point where players and fans alike don't respect this dude anymore.

I feel like Jokic is getting that heat right now.

[IamBBAnalysis]

Disagree completely. If I had it my way MVP would be completely separated from team record.

And we could call the award the BS award. The Best stats award.

[dygaction]

One of the best journalists in the league gets it. Shame he had to win another MVP for people to realize this.

https://theathletic.com/3257867/2022/04/19/nikola-jokic-mvp-nuggets-warriors/

From the article:

But in the interest of contextualizing the conversation that looks likely to come, I spent much of the second half diving into the Basketball-Reference.com annals to get a better sense of the situation here. The following is a breakdown of playoff finishes for all of the league’s 66 MVPs:

Won the championship: 23
Lost in The Finals: Nine
Lost in the conference/division finals: 20*
Lost in the conference semifinals: Eight
Lost in the first round: Five **
Didn’t make the playoffs: One ***

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

I mean, even if the article is right, the MVP should not go to Embiid as Jokic still went deeper and won more playoff series than him based on the previous years. Unless you want to predict Harden, Harris and Maxey would do better than Barton, Gordon, and Rivers.

[Duke4life831]

Joker is the best player when games dont matter. There is nothing wrong with the award and more with the regular season itself. it means lesser and lesser over the years and teams are saving the best of stars for PS.
maybe give MVP a min game requirement like 70 games and if you dont play enough games you dont get qualified for MVP.

Jokic has a playoff career average of 26/11/6 on a 60 TS%, while having a WS/48 of .201 and a BPM of 9.1. He has been to a WCF already and he has yet to play with another all star in his career. Id say no matter if its a regular season game or a playoff game, Jokic is an elite top 5 player without a doubt.

This is the problem, too much focus on stats. MVP's win games, period.

If Denver loses against GS, it will be the first time Jokic was knocked out in the 1st round of the playoffs. Again the dude has already made a WCF. He has done this in the middle of the era of superstars teaming up with each other and he has yet to play with another all star.

There is no player in the NBA if you switched out Jokic with them, they would lead this Denver team to a series win against this GS team.

Dirk's run in 2011 is glamorized (rightfully so) for Dirk being the only star on that team and knocking out superteams. While Dirk wasn't playing alongside any stars (at least stars in their prime still), he was playing alongside one hell of a supporting roster. Jokic is currently playing alongside scrubs. 2-15 that Denver roster is the worst roster in the playoffs by a wide margin. And that includes the Pels team that is 10 games under .500.

[antonac]

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Steph "carried" the warriors to 9th. That's not even in the top half. This years Nuggets were quite a bit better than than the Warriors last year. This is probably a good argument for Jokic. Jokic made his team better than an on form Curry scoring 32 ppg and Draymond Green do together. And just for fun it's worth noting Oubre and Wiggins both outscored the Nuggets next best guy. And you had Poole coming off the bench, someone who'd easily be starting for this Nuggets team.

Based on your logic why does Steph not making the playoffs matter? If we can’t critique Jokic’s garbage play in the playoffs?

Steph managed 9th in the RS, which is play-in, not automatic qualification. Jokic managed 6th, which is. It's a benchmark of a successful regular season. He also had the better win record.

There is no conflict of logic.

[Walton the GOAT]

If you're going to give a player credit for being on a good team- which is what "including wins" means- then it seems reasonable to also give a player credit for helping a bad team overachieve. Which is what the basis of Jokic's second MVP narrative seems to be. Doesn't make sense to pick and choose when to include or dismiss team context.

Well, that and having the first 2000/1000/500 season in NBA history.

[NetsJets]

Steph "carried" the warriors to 9th. That's not even in the top half. This years Nuggets were quite a bit better than than the Warriors last year. This is probably a good argument for Jokic. Jokic made his team better than an on form Curry scoring 32 ppg and Draymond Green do together. And just for fun it's worth noting Oubre and Wiggins both outscored the Nuggets next best guy. And you had Poole coming off the bench, someone who'd easily be starting for this Nuggets team.

Based on your logic why does Steph not making the playoffs matter? If we can’t critique Jokic’s garbage play in the playoffs?

Steph managed 9th in the RS, which is play-in, not automatic qualification. Jokic managed 6th, which is. It's a benchmark of a successful regular season. He also had the better win record.

There is no conflict of logic.

He managed 8th actually which would qualify you for the playoffs in most years with no play in game.

[eyeatoma]

One of the best journalists in the league gets it. Shame he had to win another MVP for people to realize this.

https://theathletic.com/3257867/2022/04/19/nikola-jokic-mvp-nuggets-warriors/

From the article:

But in the interest of contextualizing the conversation that looks likely to come, I spent much of the second half diving into the Basketball-Reference.com annals to get a better sense of the situation here. The following is a breakdown of playoff finishes for all of the league’s 66 MVPs:

Won the championship: 23
Lost in The Finals: Nine
Lost in the conference/division finals: 20*
Lost in the conference semifinals: Eight
Lost in the first round: Five **
Didn’t make the playoffs: One ***

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

I mean, even if the article is right, the MVP should not go to Embiid as Jokic still went deeper and won more playoff series than him based on the previous years. Unless you want to predict Harden, Harris and Maxey would do better than Barton, Gordon, and Rivers.

You mean when Jamaal Murray went super saiyan?

[LAL1947]

You can’t have it both ways. If we’re praising him for carrying a team then you can’t absolve him of blame for losing with that same team. We’re going to look back on his B2B MVP campaign very differently.

I doubt that most reasonable people are having it "both ways". Both your statements are true:

1. He carried a team that would be lotto bound to the 6th seed
2. His team just isn't good enough against any contenders

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Did Steph even make the playoffs last season? So isn't it you who is trying to move goalposts for Steph there?

There's an unwritten rule about not selecting MVPs from teams who don't make the playoffs... after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was gifted the MVP in the 70s despite his Lakers team not making the playoffs.

Source for this newspaper clipping:

[NetsJets]

I doubt that most reasonable people are having it "both ways". Both your statements are true:

1. He carried a team that would be lotto bound to the 6th seed
2. His team just isn't good enough against any contenders

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Did Steph even make the playoffs last season? So isn't it you who is trying to move goalposts for Steph there?

There's an unwritten rule about not selecting MVPs from teams who don't make the playoffs... after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was gifted the MVP in the 70s despite his Lakers team not making the playoffs.

Source for this newspaper clipping:

I was told today that the MVP’s performance in the playoffs doesn’t matter because the MVP is a regular season award. So by that logic why does Steph missing the playoffs matter? We’re only awarding him for his regular season work. Jokic fans can’t have it both ways. Either sit back and take the beating your guy is getting or try to defend him and get facts thrown in your faces.

[dygaction]

One of the best journalists in the league gets it. Shame he had to win another MVP for people to realize this.

https://theathletic.com/3257867/2022/04/19/nikola-jokic-mvp-nuggets-warriors/

From the article:

But in the interest of contextualizing the conversation that looks likely to come, I spent much of the second half diving into the Basketball-Reference.com annals to get a better sense of the situation here. The following is a breakdown of playoff finishes for all of the league’s 66 MVPs:

Won the championship: 23
Lost in The Finals: Nine
Lost in the conference/division finals: 20*
Lost in the conference semifinals: Eight
Lost in the first round: Five **
Didn’t make the playoffs: One ***

Sent from my SM-S908E using Tapatalk

I mean, even if the article is right, the MVP should not go to Embiid as Jokic still went deeper and won more playoff series than him based on the previous years. Unless you want to predict Harden, Harris and Maxey would do better than Barton, Gordon, and Rivers.

You mean when Jamaal Murray went super saiyan?

Doesn't matter as talking down Jokic's playoff achievements would not strengthen Embiid's. Just pointing out what you are arguing may not be what you are wishing for.

[LAL1947]

This argument was why Steph couldn’t win MVP last year. Now we move the goalposts for him this year.

Did Steph even make the playoffs last season? So isn't it you who is trying to move goalposts for Steph there?

There's an unwritten rule about not selecting MVPs from teams who don't make the playoffs... after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was gifted the MVP in the 70s despite his Lakers team not making the playoffs.

Source for this newspaper clipping:

I was told today that the MVP’s performance in the playoffs doesn’t matter because the MVP is a regular season award. So by that logic why does Steph missing the playoffs matter? We’re only awarding him for his regular season work. Jokic fans can’t have it both ways. Either sit back and take the beating your guy is getting or try to defend him and get facts thrown in your faces.

I don't even know how you managed to come up with this as a comeback, lol. Did it sound more logical in your head than it does after you typed it out?

Why does Steph missing the playoffs matter? Because we don't give out prizes for shooting blanks! (Pun intended.)

[Clyde Frazier]

It's a regular season award. Unless the NBA adds criteria of you need to win a certain # of games or be a top 2 seed or something, the voters can vote however they want. Get back to me when a player wins it on a team under 500 and then we can talk. The nuggets were a winning team carried by an MVP level player.

Edit - and yes I wouldn't change anything I said with Kareem winning it in 76 with a 40-42 record. That was 46 years ago.

[NetsJets]

Did Steph even make the playoffs last season? So isn't it you who is trying to move goalposts for Steph there?

There's an unwritten rule about not selecting MVPs from teams who don't make the playoffs... after Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was gifted the MVP in the 70s despite his Lakers team not making the playoffs.

Source for this newspaper clipping:

I was told today that the MVP’s performance in the playoffs doesn’t matter because the MVP is a regular season award. So by that logic why does Steph missing the playoffs matter? We’re only awarding him for his regular season work. Jokic fans can’t have it both ways. Either sit back and take the beating your guy is getting or try to defend him and get facts thrown in your faces.

I don't even know how you managed to come up with this as a comeback, lol. Did it sound more logical in your head than it does after you typed it out?

Why does Steph missing the playoffs matter? Because we don't give out prizes for shooting blanks! (Pun intended.)

That’s not my logic that’s the logic I heard today and I’m applying it to Steph. So if it sounds absurd then imagine how the goalpost moving for Jokic sounds to me.