Tatum VS Luka

[SelfishPlayer]

Tatum making All Star games and playing with players that made the All Star game as his teammate is a credit to Tatum. Jalen Brunson playing like an All Star in the playoffs and the team winning with Luka injured makes my Tatum over Luka decision easy.

According to you. It's not a credit to Steph Curry that Klay Thompson plays the way he does. Also it's not a credit to Butler that Bam is an all star. But if you want to see some actual credit, you can check how many open 3 pointers Luka generates for his teammates and compare that to Tatum. You can also compare that with Brunson, if you want. And check how many lobs or easy layups Powell gets from Doncic vs from Brunson. Though yeah, also a lot of credit on defense goes to Tatum, not so much to Doncic.

The Mavs played without Luka for only 3 games in the playoffs... They won these 2 games due to the adrenaline, surprise element that they can actually play without Luka and due to Utah not willing to fight and due to extremely bad perimeter defense from Utah.

If Brunson is so great, he could lead the Mavs to a better record than 5-9 without Luka in the regular season. He also could play much better last year against the Clipps.

Draymond is going to make the hall of fame. If he played his entire career with Luka he possibly would of had a failed NBA career as a non floor spacing cast aside.

[Bob8]

Is there a page which tracks the amount of open shots created by a player? Im pretty confident Luka blows Tatum out there, even more than with just the raw APG numbers

The Ben Simmons stat.

Potential assists.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/passing/

Luka 17, Tatum 8.7.

[jpengland]

Tatum has taken strides defensively and playmaking which close the gap. But it's still Doncic now and the future for me. He can warp defenses in ways that Tatum doesn't get close.

[Feed Your Head]

Is there a page which tracks the amount of open shots created by a player? Im pretty confident Luka blows Tatum out there, even more than with just the raw APG numbers

The closest is the box creation stat, along with playmaking talent.

Box creation
Luka: 16.0
Tatum:8.0

Playmaking talent
Luka 2.77
Tatum 1.46

Luka clearly has a huge edge as a playmaker, though Tatum’s scoring gravity edge narrows the gap some, as it leads to wide open shots even if he’s not the guy getting the assist. Luka is a PG though, so it makes sense that he has the large gap.

One thing I will point out, if the numbers were for the last few months, Tatum’s number was much higher. He has the 4th highest box creation so far in this playoffs, his playmaking is improving rapidly.

[Mjan]

Luka was born a superstar. He was already a superstar when he stepped foot in the NBA. Tatum has molded himself into one. While I respect that process a lot, I will always give Luka the edge for his natural talent. He is the golden boy.

[Gimli]

Um, I think the playmaking gap is smaller than the defensive gap,

Talk to me about Tatum's playmaking please.

Because I would have Luka an elite playmaker, like Jokic is probably better, then maybe Lebron, maybe Paul, but the list doesn't extend beyond that. I do not have Tatum that level of defender.

And Luka I have as a subpar, but far from tragic defender. My biggest question is Tatum's playmaking. I get he's a better playmaker relatively speaking than Luka is a defender, but I don't think of him as anything special as a playmaker.

So sincere question here, help me understand who Tatum is as a playmaker?

I’d have Tatum as a very good playmaker, but not great. I can promise that raw numbers don’t do it justice lol, but Luka is still on another planet as a playmaker.

The best argument I have for Tatum is what happens to the offense when he sits. And that’s not all because he’s a dangerous scorer.

Celtics offensive rating last year with Tatum: 114.8
Celtics offensive rating last year W/O Tatum: 105.9

Celtics offensive rating this year with Tatum: 115.5
Celtics offensive rating this year W/O Tatum: 105.1

Mavs offensive rating last year with Luka: 116.6
Mavs offensive rating last year W/O Luka: 107.7

Mavs offensive rating this year with Luka: 113.8
Mavs offensive rating this year W/O Luka: 108.7

Stats are not everything, but if Luka was as much the superior offensive player as some pretend, then why doesn’t it show up in the numbers? Especially considering the Celtics have what many would describe as a very good offensive player in Jaylen, whereas the Mavs second guy has been KP and now Brunson.

You’d think the Mavs offense would suffer
more offensively when Luka sits than the Celtics when Tatum sits, but it’s not even close to the case. Overall on/off is even more extreme, here is their cleaning the glass player cards for their career, and the on/off.

Spoiler:

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Luka is a year younger, and I think he has higher upside, but the days of them being in different tiers is over IMO.

As for just playmaking, the only evidence I can give is just consistently watching the team. It’s why all the national guys have been raving about his leap as a passer, they are finally seeing what Celtics fans have seen all season. I don’t expect people to watch this video lol, but the passing in this is pretty good evidence.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=zGv3JhultAWC7yB29dcTlQ

I would like to see these stats from 2022 only... But my guess.

When Doncic didn't play this season:

14 2021-11-17 22-262 DAL @ PHO L (-7) Inactive
15 2021-11-19 22-264 DAL @ PHO L (-8) Inactive
16 2021-11-21 22-266 DAL @ LAC L (-6) Inactive


26 2021-12-12 22-287 DAL @ OKC W (+19) Inactive
27 2021-12-13 22-288 DAL CHO W (+24) Inactive
28 2021-12-15 22-290 DAL LAL L (-3) Inactive
29 2021-12-19 22-294 DAL @ MIN L (-6) Inactive
30 2021-12-21 22-296 DAL MIN W (+12) Inactive
31 2021-12-23 22-298 DAL MIL L (-7) Inactive
32 2021-12-25 22-300 DAL @ UTA L (-4) Inactive
33 2021-12-27 22-302 DAL @ POR W (+15) Inactive
34 2021-12-29 22-304 DAL @ SAC L (-1) Inactive
35 2021-12-31 22-306 DAL @ SAC W (+16) Inactive

39 2022-01-07 22-313 DAL @ HOU W (+24) Inactive
64 2022-03-05 23-005 DAL SAC W (+1) Inactive
73 2022-03-23 23-023 DAL HOU W (+19) Inactive

2 times with PHO, Utah were the only difficult matches, I guess? LAL is questinable, I'm not sure if Minny was in a slump, the Bucks were I think injured quite a lot? I think in general these are all easy matches.

If we're talking also in the games when Doncic played (I'm not sure how OTRG is calculated without a player), Doncic plays against the toughest defence, maybe the Mavs bench is just better than other benches in general?

Also, before the middle of december (I don't know exactly when, but certainly the first 20 games), the Mavs offense and defense was terrible. Kidd was experimenting. And Doncic played the majority of the minutes in a very bad lineup of THJ + DFS + Powell + KP...
THJ couldn't hit anything, DFS also not, Powell needed picknrolls, but the paint was crowded, because KP wanted postups, and well KP wanted to play in the low post, middle post, wanted to touch the ball a lot... Doncic didn't have space to drive, he could only shoot and he was fat and out of shape. Meanwhile Brunson enjoyed much more "smooth" bench lineups I guess, there was not politics "let's feed KP, let's keep THJ in the lineup even though he's a black hole, Powell should be in the starting lineup, because the leadership council said so..."

So I would like to see these stats in 2022 only. Also, the Mavs just run kinda inefficient offense. But it's unstoppable. They could run some more fancy stuff, borrow some plays from Carlisle, from Kerr or from Phil Jackson... The offense is mainly let Luka do his stuff. The Mavs don't really have any "plays", it's just Luka being Luka. Then Brunson being Brunson. Then Dwinddle being Dwinddle. It's possible that the bench can replicate the scoring, against much worse defense.

But I think the beauty here is that 70% of the time it's just Doncic generating stuff. And this won't fail in the playoffs. He won't crumble under pressure, he will get open looks to DFS and Powell. And then it's up to them to hit the easy bucket. That is different to Jokic, who waits at the top of the key while his teammates are circling around. And when they get themselves open, he passes. The thing is, the Nuggets depend on the rotational players that they will get themselves open, but the Mavs rely on Doncic generating those looks out of nothing. And it's much less likely than Doncic will fail vs that rotational players will fail. That's the strategy of the Mavs.

Though still, Doncic should play more off ball... Maybe this series against Utah will show them that Brunson is much more capable player than previously thought. In the last game they did actually started playing much faster and Doncic played more off ball.

[Drax]

I have given you facts and you don't like it? If you say career numbers are more important in 3pts %, than they should be more important everywhere. You cannot just pick stats you like. I gave you FT%, but I kinda doubt that FT% is the most important stats in basketball. Look at Ricky brick Rubio. He was always great FT shooter, didn't help him much.

No, it's not the facts. It's the fact you try to not engage in what i argued and responded. I gave you the fact Luka is the better scorer, i gave you the fact Luka is the better facilitator. But shooter, no. So the career better eFG% by how much? .525 to .528. TS% .571 to .573. That's the margins you think prove he's the better shooter? I still take the .383 to .337 3P% or .844 to .737 FT% shooter.

Can you spot the difference?

[Bob8]

Is there a page which tracks the amount of open shots created by a player? Im pretty confident Luka blows Tatum out there, even more than with just the raw APG numbers

The closest is the box creation stat, along with playmaking talent.

Box creation
Luka: 16.0
Tatum:8.0

Playmaking talent
Luka 2.77
Tatum 1.46

Luka clearly has a huge edge as a playmaker, though Tatum’s scoring gravity edge narrows the gap some, as it leads to wide open shots even if he’s not the guy getting the assist. Luka is a PG though, so it makes sense that he has the large gap.

One thing I will point out, if the numbers were for the last few months, Tatum’s number was much higher. He has the 4th highest box creation so far in this playoffs, his playmaking is improving rapidly.

You really believe playoffs small sample size means something, especially if all games is against 1 opponent? Brunson is great example, he's thriving against Utah and he was disastrous against Clippers last year. 2 teams with totally different D.

[Ambrose]

Um, I think the playmaking gap is smaller than the defensive gap,

Talk to me about Tatum's playmaking please.

Because I would have Luka an elite playmaker, like Jokic is probably better, then maybe Lebron, maybe Paul, but the list doesn't extend beyond that. I do not have Tatum that level of defender.

And Luka I have as a subpar, but far from tragic defender. My biggest question is Tatum's playmaking. I get he's a better playmaker relatively speaking than Luka is a defender, but I don't think of him as anything special as a playmaker.

So sincere question here, help me understand who Tatum is as a playmaker?

I’d have Tatum as a very good playmaker, but not great. I can promise that raw numbers don’t do it justice lol, but Luka is still on another planet as a playmaker.

The best argument I have for Tatum is what happens to the offense when he sits. And that’s not all because he’s a dangerous scorer.

Celtics offensive rating last year with Tatum: 114.8
Celtics offensive rating last year W/O Tatum: 105.9

Celtics offensive rating this year with Tatum: 115.5
Celtics offensive rating this year W/O Tatum: 105.1

Mavs offensive rating last year with Luka: 116.6
Mavs offensive rating last year W/O Luka: 107.7

Mavs offensive rating this year with Luka: 113.8
Mavs offensive rating this year W/O Luka: 108.7

Stats are not everything, but if Luka was as much the superior offensive player as some pretend, then why doesn’t it show up in the numbers? Especially considering the Celtics have what many would describe as a very good offensive player in Jaylen, whereas the Mavs second guy has been KP and now Brunson.

You’d think the Mavs offense would suffer
more offensively when Luka sits than the Celtics when Tatum sits, but it’s not even close to the case. Overall on/off is even more extreme, here is their cleaning the glass player cards for their career, and the on/off.

Spoiler:

Advanced stats this season.
DPM: Tatum 5.7/Luka 3.7
EPM: Tatum 5.8/Luka 4.5
LEBRON: Tatum 5.1/Luka 3.0
RAPTOR: Tatum 6.7/Luka 6.3
RPM: Tatum 8.7/Luka 6.6
BPM: Luka 8.2/Tatum 4.9

Luka is a year younger, and I think he has higher upside, but the days of them being in different tiers is over IMO.

As for just playmaking, the only evidence I can give is just consistently watching the team. It’s why all the national guys have been raving about his leap as a passer, they are finally seeing what Celtics fans have seen all season. I don’t expect people to watch this video lol, but the passing in this is pretty good evidence.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=zGv3JhultAWC7yB29dcTlQ

I'd say one potential reason for the drop disparity would be Dallas has a guy who levels up with more on-ball action, and he can kind of fill the Luka role a little bit. When Tatum sits I don't think other guys on Boston can do that, and then on top of it they lack playmakers. I mostly agree with what you said and simply wanted to add that. I've been anti-Tatum for a long time, and I don't think he touches Luka at his best, but on a day to day basis I think you can make a strong argument Tatum is more impactful currently.

[StojkoVrankovic]

Tatum is on another planet defensively and they are not that far off offensively, not sure how this is close

[Bob8]

Double post.

[Bob8]

I have given you facts and you don't like it? If you say career numbers are more important in 3pts %, than they should be more important everywhere. You cannot just pick stats you like. I gave you FT%, but I kinda doubt that FT% is the most important stats in basketball. Look at Ricky brick Rubio. He was always great FT shooter, didn't help him much.

No, it's not the facts. It's the fact you try to not engage in what i argued and responded. I gave you the fact Luka is the better scorer, i gave you the fact Luka is the better facilitator. But shooter, no. So the career better eFG% by how much? .525 to .528. TS% .571 to .573. That's the margins you think prove he's the better shooter? I still take the .383 to .337 3P% or .844 to .737 FT% shooter.


Can you spot the difference?

Yes they have same %, but the difference is that 90% of Luka's shots are unassisted and he has bigger volume. Do you believe that Curry is shooting the same % on pull-ups and assisted shots? Of course not.

[Woodsanity]

Tatum is on another planet defensively and they are not that far off offensively, not sure how this is close

Because Luka is on another planet than Tatum offensively. Luka is many times better of a passer.

And yea the defensive gap between Tatum and Luka isn't even close to covering that. Tatum is the 3rd best defensive player on his own team at best. Luka is also not a bad defender anymore.

[Drax]

Spoiler:

I have given you facts and you don't like it? If you say career numbers are more important in 3pts %, than they should be more important everywhere. You cannot just pick stats you like. I gave you FT%, but I kinda doubt that FT% is the most important stats in basketball. Look at Ricky brick Rubio. He was always great FT shooter, didn't help him much.

No, it's not the facts. It's the fact you try to not engage in what i argued and responded. I gave you the fact Luka is the better scorer, i gave you the fact Luka is the better facilitator. But shooter, no. So the career better eFG% by how much? .525 to .528. TS% .571 to .573. That's the margins you think prove he's the better shooter? I still take the .383 to .337 3P% or .844 to .737 FT% shooter.


Can you spot the difference?

Yes they have same %, but the difference is that 90% of Luka's shots are unassisted and he has bigger volume. Do you believe that Curry is shooting the same % on pull-ups and assisted shots? Of course not.

Ok, now i'm officially tapped out.

[bballfan1three3]

What you are describing are actually players who need someone else to feed them the ball, because they can't score by themselves.

No. Some players are simply cold blooded scorers that can get their own shot anywhere or anytime like Dominique Wilkins and Tatum. Then there are cold blooded scorers that can get their own shot anywhere at anytime and even facilitate if they are asked like Allen Iverson and Larry Bird. Then there are guys like Tyrese Haliburton. Whose scoring and assist numbers skyrocket when you make them the ball dominant do it all even if it results in losing. Luka is starting to look like the latter.

???? They just won by ,, like,, 30 in the only game he's played

Sometime I think this website has chat bots

[hickfromfrenchlick]

As a Celtics fan I'm just happy that this is a legitimate question.

Tatum was projected to be a good defender but I didn't expect this.

[Feed Your Head]

Is there a page which tracks the amount of open shots created by a player? Im pretty confident Luka blows Tatum out there, even more than with just the raw APG numbers

The closest is the box creation stat, along with playmaking talent.

Box creation
Luka: 16.0
Tatum:8.0

Playmaking talent
Luka 2.77
Tatum 1.46

Luka clearly has a huge edge as a playmaker, though Tatum’s scoring gravity edge narrows the gap some, as it leads to wide open shots even if he’s not the guy getting the assist. Luka is a PG though, so it makes sense that he has the large gap.

One thing I will point out, if the numbers were for the last few months, Tatum’s number was much higher. He has the 4th highest box creation so far in this playoffs, his playmaking is improving rapidly.

You really believe playoffs small sample size means something, especially if all games is against 1 opponent? Brunson is great example, he's thriving against Utah and he was disastrous against Clippers last year. 2 teams with totally different D.

If you’re going to be disingenuous, this isn’t worth either of our time. But yes one playoff series does matter if it’s just a continuation of what’s been happening the last few months.

[BodieB]

Tatum is on another planet defensively and they are not that far off offensively, not sure how this is close

Because Luka is on another planet than Tatum offensively. Luka is many times better of a passer.

And yea the defensive gap between Tatum and Luka isn't even close to covering that. Tatum is the 3rd best defensive player on his own team at best. Luka is also not a bad defender anymore.

Nah, but comments like this make it easier to weed out who actually watches the games or understands what they're seeing on court.

Anyway, the age factor really isn't relevant in the debate. A year difference is negligible, especially for two players who's game isn't reliant on athleticism.

[tsherkin]

You really believe playoffs small sample size means something, especially if all games is against 1 opponent? Brunson is great example, he's thriving against Utah and he was disastrous against Clippers last year. 2 teams with totally different D.

I mean, if it helps...

Luca was 5th in the league in Assist Points Created during the regular season, first in Secondary Assists, 5th in APG and 5th in Potential Assists.

That's over 65 games, rather than the playoff sample. Now, some of this pertains to volume of ball-handling/playmaking duties and all that, to be sure, but the idea that Doncic is doing this just over the first round isn't really applicable.

[Texas Chuck]

Tatum is on another planet defensively and they are not that far off offensively, not sure how this is close

Because Luka is on another planet than Tatum offensively. Luka is many times better of a passer.

And yea the defensive gap between Tatum and Luka isn't even close to covering that. Tatum is the 3rd best defensive player on his own team at best. Luka is also not a bad defender anymore.

Nah, but comments like this make it easier to weed out who actually watches the games or understands what they're seeing on court.

So Tatum plays with the DPOY in Smart. Robert Williams is also a very high level defensive player. Saying Tatum is 3rd on his own team is neither insulting him nor a sign that another poster doesn't watch games or know what they are talking about.

In fact, dismissing that out of hand, suggests an unfamiliarity with who else is on the Celtics. I'm assuming you are aware of Smart since you know he just won DPOY, so I might suggest you take a hard look at Willliams defensively.

Celtics have a dominating defense right now. Something that isn't going to be the product of just one singular player. We should expect to see multiple good defenders on Boston, and lo and behold we do. Horford is still good, White is good. Brown is good. Theis and Pritchard aren't liabilities... The coach clearly knows defense.

Acknowledging other good players isn't trashing your guy. We need to move past that mentality.