Eastern Conference | Round 2 | (2) Boston Celtics VS. (3) Milwaukee Bucks (TIED 3-3)

[The High Cyde]

Giannis awoke the beast that is Ol’ Al

Watch on YouTube

Horford has been amazing this postseason. He has that Timmy Duncan in him haha

[cl2117]

I'm sorry but this is just straight up embarrassing.

You've done your fair share of complaining about refs this series. Pot meet kettle.

I think you must be confusing me with someone else.

I only really complained about game 3, which I thought was bad from the refs (particularly the missed goaltend and the ending). Even then I said Tatum was the reason the C's lost and you can't complain you got robbed when you play that poorly. And my complaints were almost entirely limited to the C's board (I posted one clip of Giannis going through Grant Williams and the latter getting a call here and that's it and I stand by it).

I thought it was fair net/net through the first two games and said as much multiple times. I haven't opined on the 4th game because I didn't watch it live.

I certainly didn't post 10+ video clips of mostly non fouls as evidence that the reffing has been unfair.

[Slax]

What rumors and news have we seen about Middleton's recovery timeline? Any new info?

[Wooderson]

It's a bit hard to tell in the gifs, need you to link me to which of the original videos those two examples came from, but at a glance from these blurry gif's, if you call them strictly, first one I would call because Horford didn't have position between Giannis and the basket, Giannis was front to the basket, and on top of that his hand and forearm in the back appear to have impeded motion, second one looks like marginal incidental contact to the arm that did not impede Giannis's motion to the basket or the shot and should be a no-call (unless there's a hold or shove that I'm missing because of the angle/resolution/speed). Neither of those is an elbow to Giannis, and neither was a reckless play that could have caused injury. And like I said, I'm not concerned with foul disparity or Giannis playing physical, refs are not screwing over the Celtics this series, frankly I am frustrated by the Celtics fans who are insisting that is the case. I just want better protection against players getting banged up from reckless or dangerous plays.

First Video

Second Video

On the second Horford sticks his arm/elbow directly into Giannis chest on the drive to ward him off and slow down momentum. You can't do that.

Spoiler:

I'm not commenting on bias either way, just saying that if this type of defense is allowed, Giannis is going to be extra aggressive attacking (maybe to his detriment honestly) and what comes with that are sometimes plays that put people in bad spots. But it's a product of how loose the refs are calling it (which is much different than other series this playoffs).

Let's not pretend the recklessness is one-sided either. Horford caught Giannis with a dangerous arm swing. Grant ripped Connoughton's arm. Smart has had a couple dangerous ones including Giannis nearly busting an ankle on an entry pass. Refs set the tone early by allowing aggression and it's escalated from there.

[ballup]

Spoiler:

If Giannis was really as protected as many Celtics fans seem to think, the majority of these would be called fouls. Horford is the king of getting away with elbows and pushes - often times they're subtle but clear fouls, other times they're blatant. Refs are letting Boston be super aggressive, so of course he's going to be allowed to dish it back.

Horford elbowing Giannis in the ribs, also looks like Williams gets him from behind

Theis riding Giannis side/jumping into him

Horford riding Giannis back with an elbow

Horford grabbing Giannis shoulder

Grant Williams jumping into Giannis on a turnaround jumper

Horford left hand on Giannis back

Pritchard sitcking his knee into Giannis

Horford again sticks his elbow in Giannis

Williams hugs Giannis

Grant Williams runs horizontally under Giannis

Horford small shove on Giannis hip

Horford left arm push on Giannis back as he's attempting the shot

Grant kicks Giannis

Horford pushes Giannis hip on the drive

Spoiler:

[url=

Read on Twitter

?t=duQWRfvUyc-zRMFBtivY8Q&s=19]Williams elbows Giannis in ribs on putback[/url]

Brown cuts off his path, Theis jumps forward into Giannis

White catches Giannis in the face

All I've learned from watching these clips is that you can't tell the difference between a dribbler elbowing a defender in the face and a set defender placing a bent forearm on the dribbler's body: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-post-defense-defender-maintains-legal-forearm-hand-with-bent-elbow/

I know it's hard for refs to actually make those calls especially in the playoffs, not blaming or insulting anyone, but a Bucks fan pretending it's exactly the same as Al Horford (legally) placing a forearm on Giannis while defending him in the post is not going to assuage my concern for my team's players' health or my frustration that the refs aren't doing much to protect against it. It is what it is. All I really want is for refs to sometimes call a common foul on the most blatantly reckless plays so that Giannis has to be a bit more mindful about protecting the players around him on the court.

The video you posted is for post defense with the offensive player backing down the defender. These two Giannis are attacking the rim and the contact is definitely not legal. If it was you would see defenders sticking their elbows into guys on every drive.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-contact-below-ft-line-extended-on-drive-2/

Section I—Types

B.
A. Exceptions:
3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of maintaining a defensive position.



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[cl2117]

What rumors and news have we seen about Middleton's recovery timeline? Any new info?

I believe the latest is just that he's started doing light contact work. Bucks haven't shut the door entirely on him returning this series but it remains unlikely.

[Celts17Pride]

Out of all the Bucks previous playoff opponents, Celtics have to be the most pathetic in terms of whining about the refs.

They’ve command into this series pumping their chest about bullying the Nets, then turned into the Jolly Green Midget once Giannis started punishing them.

Cool story. Got anymore?

[ArksNetsSince99]

Lets be honest , who’s more likely to have big game again, Horford or Giannis ? It’s easy Giannis

And please don’t say Tatum , Horford bailed his ass out last time

Bucks in 6

[Wooderson]

Spoiler:

All I've learned from watching these clips is that you can't tell the difference between a dribbler elbowing a defender in the face and a set defender placing a bent forearm on the dribbler's body: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-post-defense-defender-maintains-legal-forearm-hand-with-bent-elbow/

I know it's hard for refs to actually make those calls especially in the playoffs, not blaming or insulting anyone, but a Bucks fan pretending it's exactly the same as Al Horford (legally) placing a forearm on Giannis while defending him in the post is not going to assuage my concern for my team's players' health or my frustration that the refs aren't doing much to protect against it. It is what it is. All I really want is for refs to sometimes call a common foul on the most blatantly reckless plays so that Giannis has to be a bit more mindful about protecting the players around him on the court.

The video you posted is for post defense with the offensive player backing down the defender. These two Giannis are attacking the rim and the contact is definitely not legal. If it was you would see defenders sticking their elbows into guys on every drive.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-contact-below-ft-line-extended-on-drive-2/

Section I—Types

B.
A. Exceptions:
3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of maintaining a defensive position.



Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Horford has his arm EXTENDED. Notice how in your example the defenders arm is at his side. Totally different. Here's a video of ILLEGAL contact: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/illegal-contact-below-ft-line-extended/

"This is an example of a defensive foul, with the defender using an illegal forearm below the free throw line extended. The on-ball defender, Zion Williamson, extends his forearm, and he initiates contact to the front of the driving offensive player, Kawhi Leonard. This contact is illegal whether or not it disrupts the offensive player’s speed, quickness, balance or rhythm."

That's less contact than most of Horford's yet Horford is getting away with it. Clear as day Giannis is getting fouled.

[ITYSL]

The video you posted is for post defense with the offensive player backing down the defender. These two Giannis are attacking the rim and the contact is definitely not legal. If it was you would see defenders sticking their elbows into guys on every drive.

You literally just posted a gif of Giannis pushing off with his off arm to start his drive. Doing that and then complaining about subsequent incidental contact is hilarious, so thanks for the laugh.

Wanting a call there either way is a joke. That's a no-call all day every day.

[Slax]

Spoiler:

The video you posted is for post defense with the offensive player backing down the defender. These two Giannis are attacking the rim and the contact is definitely not legal. If it was you would see defenders sticking their elbows into guys on every drive.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-contact-below-ft-line-extended-on-drive-2/

Section I—Types

B.
A. Exceptions:
3) A defender may apply contact with a forearm to an offensive player with the ball at any time in the Lower Defensive Box. The forearm in the above exceptions is solely for the purpose of maintaining a defensive position.



Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Horford has his arm EXTENDED. Notice how in your example the defenders arm is at his side. Totally different. Here's a video of ILLEGAL contact: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/illegal-contact-below-ft-line-extended/

"This is an example of a defensive foul, with the defender using an illegal forearm below the free throw line extended. The on-ball defender, Zion Williamson, extends his forearm, and he initiates contact to the front of the driving offensive player, Kawhi Leonard. This contact is illegal whether or not it disrupts the offensive player’s speed, quickness, balance or rhythm."

That's less contact than most of Horford's yet Horford is getting away with it. Clear as day Giannis is getting fouled.

Horford's contact was inside the lower defensive box, the one you linked to is for outside the lower defensive box. It has nothing to do with extending the forearm. When you're inside the lower defensive box, contact is generally only a foul if you are rerouting/impeding/dislodging a player.

Edit: Yep, you just cut off literally the next sentence about this not applying to the lower defensive box

"Outside the Lower Defensive Box and below the free throw line extended, forearm contact by an on-ball defender is legal only when it is made to the back of an offensive player with the ball, that is not the case here, and this is a defensive foul."

[Slax]

It's a bit hard to tell in the gifs, need you to link me to which of the original videos those two examples came from, but at a glance from these blurry gif's, if you call them strictly, first one I would call because Horford didn't have position between Giannis and the basket, Giannis was front to the basket, and on top of that his hand and forearm in the back appear to have impeded motion, second one looks like marginal incidental contact to the arm that did not impede Giannis's motion to the basket or the shot and should be a no-call (unless there's a hold or shove that I'm missing because of the angle/resolution/speed). Neither of those is an elbow to Giannis, and neither was a reckless play that could have caused injury. And like I said, I'm not concerned with foul disparity or Giannis playing physical, refs are not screwing over the Celtics this series, frankly I am frustrated by the Celtics fans who are insisting that is the case. I just want better protection against players getting banged up from reckless or dangerous plays.

First Video

Second Video

On the second Horford sticks his arm/elbow directly into Giannis chest on the drive to ward him off and slow down momentum. You can't do that.

Spoiler:

Thanks for the better view. The contact here on a drive in the lower defensive box is legal as long as Horford isn't impeding Giannis and affecting his motion. As far as I can tell, he doesn't appear to be rerouting Giannis. If refs called this, it would be a REALLY soft foul and a bad call.

I'm not commenting on bias either way, just saying that if this type of defense is allowed, Giannis is going to be extra aggressive attacking (maybe to his detriment honestly) and what comes with that are sometimes plays that put people in bad spots. But it's a product of how loose the refs are calling it (which is much different than other series this playoffs).

Let's not pretend the recklessness is one-sided either. Horford caught Giannis with a dangerous arm swing. Grant ripped Connoughton's arm. Smart has had a couple dangerous ones including Giannis nearly busting an ankle on an entry pass. Refs set the tone early by allowing aggression and it's escalated from there.

I would absolutely be willing to take that tradeoff of Celtics getting called a bit tighter as well if there are reckless plays they are making that the refs are just not calling, I don't think Celtics should be allowed to get away with reckless play either. Fwiw the Horford one was called a technical so he didn't get away with the contact, and the Grant one I think the officials just didn't see because it was pretty subtle. I don't recall the Smart plays you're describing.

[Wooderson]

Spoiler:

The video you posted is for post defense with the offensive player backing down the defender. These two Giannis are attacking the rim and the contact is definitely not legal. If it was you would see defenders sticking their elbows into guys on every drive.

You literally just posted a gif of Giannis pushing off with his off arm to start his drive. Doing that and then complaining about subsequent incidental contact is hilarious, so thanks for the laugh.

Wanting a call there either way is a joke. That's a no-call all day every day.

Uh where is the push off?? His arm is literally next to his body the entire time. You're allowed to initiate contact with your should if you're not extending it. What you're NOT allowed to do is stick your forearm/elbow into someone's back pushing them off the court.

[Yeggo Poleggo]

My friends are going to the game tonight, 9 rows up from center court.

C's winning the chip this year.

[Wooderson]

Thanks for the better view. The contact here on a drive in the lower defensive box is legal as long as Horford isn't impeding Giannis and affecting his motion. As far as I can tell, he doesn't appear to be rerouting Giannis. If refs called this, it would be a REALLY soft foul and a bad call.

I replied to someone else about this. You cannot extend your arm into a driving offensive player. It doesn't matter if it re-routed Giannis. Horford clearly extended his arm - not legal and textbook foul missed.

On the second one Giannis gets pushed off the court, it clearly affects his movement.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/illegal-contact-below-ft-line-extended/

"This is an example of a defensive foul, with the defender using an illegal forearm below the free throw line extended. The on-ball defender, Zion Williamson, extends his forearm, and he initiates contact to the front of the driving offensive player, Kawhi Leonard. This contact is illegal whether or not it disrupts the offensive player’s speed, quickness, balance or rhythm."

I would absolutely be willing to take that tradeoff of Celtics getting called a bit tighter as well if there are reckless plays they are making that the refs are just not calling, I don't think Celtics should be allowed to get away with reckless play either. Fwiw the Horford one was called a technical so he didn't get away with the contact, and the Grant one I think the officials just didn't see because it was pretty subtle. I don't recall the Smart plays you're describing.

Smart sliding under Giannis to catch a freaking inbounds pass. It wasn't accomplishing anything other than mucking things up and potentially injuring Giannis.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

[Slax]

Thanks for the better view. The contact here on a drive in the lower defensive box is legal as long as Horford isn't impeding Giannis and affecting his motion. As far as I can tell, he doesn't appear to be rerouting Giannis. If refs called this, it would be a REALLY soft foul and a bad call.

I replied to someone else about this. You cannot extend your arm into a driving offensive player. It doesn't matter if it re-routed Giannis. Horford clearly extended his arm - not legal and textbook foul missed.

https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/illegal-contact-below-ft-line-extended/

"This is an example of a defensive foul, with the defender using an illegal forearm below the free throw line extended. The on-ball defender, Zion Williamson, extends his forearm, and he initiates contact to the front of the driving offensive player, Kawhi Leonard. This contact is illegal whether or not it disrupts the offensive player’s speed, quickness, balance or rhythm."

I replied to you on this already, you cut off literally the next sentence which says that this only applies outside the lower defensive box. This is either the funniest accidental coincidence and you need to be more careful when reading and copy-pasting, or you need to engage in better faith.

"This is an example of a defensive foul, with the defender using an illegal forearm below the free throw line extended. The on-ball defender, Zion Williamson, extends his forearm, and he initiates contact to the front of the driving offensive player, Kawhi Leonard. This contact is illegal whether or not it disrupts the offensive player’s speed, quickness, balance or rhythm. Outside the Lower Defensive Box and below the free throw line extended, forearm contact by an on-ball defender is legal only when it is made to the back of an offensive player with the ball, that is not the case here, and this is a defensive foul."

[ITYSL]

Spoiler:

The video you posted is for post defense with the offensive player backing down the defender. These two Giannis are attacking the rim and the contact is definitely not legal. If it was you would see defenders sticking their elbows into guys on every drive.

You literally just posted a gif of Giannis pushing off with his off arm to start his drive. Doing that and then complaining about subsequent incidental contact is hilarious, so thanks for the laugh.

Wanting a call there either way is a joke. That's a no-call all day every day.

Uh where is the push off?? His arm is literally next to his body the entire time. You're allowed to initiate contact with your should if you're not extending it. What you're NOT allowed to do is stick your forearm/elbow into someone's back pushing them off the court.

I'm not going to go back and forth with screencaps with you. A few steps before your screencap, Giannis initiated contact with his right arm to push off Horford. As I said, wanting a call either way on that play is just hilarious. A member of a fanbase that talks about how physical Giannis is also wants the slightest of touch fouls called against him. Please. He has one of the highest FTr in the league this season, both RS and playoffs. He leads the league in FTA/game these playoffs, by a decent margin.

If Horford got a technical for inadvertently hitting Giannis in the head, then Giannis should have several flagrant or technical fouls this series from hitting Celtics players in the face. Your superstar player gets superstar calls, big surprise. It's how it's always been. But trying to cry that he should be at the line even more is embarrassing.

[th87]

You literally just posted a gif of Giannis pushing off with his off arm to start his drive. Doing that and then complaining about subsequent incidental contact is hilarious, so thanks for the laugh.

Wanting a call there either way is a joke. That's a no-call all day every day.

Uh where is the push off?? His arm is literally next to his body the entire time. You're allowed to initiate contact with your should if you're not extending it. What you're NOT allowed to do is stick your forearm/elbow into someone's back pushing them off the court.

I'm not going to go back and forth with screencaps with you. A few steps before your screencap, Giannis initiated contact with his right arm to push off Horford. As I said, wanting a call either way on that play is just hilarious. A member of a fanbase that talks about how physical Giannis is also wants the slightest of touch fouls called against him. Please. He has one of the highest FTr in the league this season, both RS and playoffs.

If Horford got a technical for inadvertently hitting Giannis in the head, then Giannis should have several flagrant or technical fouls this series from hitting Celtics players in the face. Your superstar player gets superstar calls, big surprise. It's how it's always been. But trying to cry that he should be at the line even more is embarrassing.

Lmao. He "initiated contact" because he in fact has an arm, which happened to brush against Horford's jersey.

OTOH, Horford making contact with Giannis while he's shooting or in the air to reroute his trajectory has always been a foul. Another example that was called correctly was the Holiday to Giannis alley oop:

Watch on YouTube

[Infinite Llamas]

Out of all the Bucks previous playoff opponents, Celtics have to be the most pathetic in terms of whining about the refs.

They’ve command into this series pumping their chest about bullying the Nets, then turned into the Jolly Green Midget once Giannis started punishing them.

In all fairness, the Bucks fans have performed a masterclass in complaining about how much the Celtics fans complain. And now I’m essentially complaining about how much Bucks fans complain about how Celtics fan complain lol

[Wooderson]

I replied to you on this already, you cut off literally the next sentence which says that this only applies outside the lower defensive box. This is either the funniest accidental coincidence and you need to be more careful when reading and copy-pasting, or you need to engage in better faith.

Missed that part. Regardless Horford is pushing him on a rim attempt. The momentum from that takes him off the court. The initial bump I don't think is a foul, but he continues to lean into him throughout the attempt to finish affecting. Using a forearm in the lower box is only to "maintain defensive position", that's not what Horford is doing by continuing to lean into Giannis on the finish and he gets pushed off the court.