Peak Harden closer to peak Derozan or Jordan?

[FreeThrowLine]

Where are your stats, what’s you’re argument. You must have been terrible in debate class.

I'm guessing you didn't do too well in your English class

Debate class...you must be 12 to even talk like that

Autocorrect

But why can’t you stay on topic, basketball reference is free

If it happened once I'd believe you, but this is the 3rd time.

Back on topic, I don't need to look up stats that don't paint the whole picture, I've seen enough lazy defense by Harden to be happy to stand by my opinion.

If I was saying he was a worthless player, or a below average scorer, you'd be well within your rights to call me a hater, but I'm not, I'm pointing out what is obvious to most non-biased people that watch the game and that is, that he has been a below average defender the majority of his career. Not because he isn't capable of playing defense but because he's shown his disinterested on that end in comparison to the effort he gives when he has the ball in his hands

[NBA4Lyfe]

I'm guessing you didn't do too well in your English class

Debate class...you must be 12 to even talk like that

Autocorrect

But why can’t you stay on topic, basketball reference is free

If it happened once I'd believe you, but this is the 3rd time.

Back on topic, I don't need to look up stats that don't paint the whole picture, I've seen enough lazy defense by Harden to be happy to stand by my opinion.

If I was saying he was a worthless player, or a below average scorer, you'd be well within your rights to call me a hater, but I'm not, I'm pointing out what is obvious to most non-biased people that watch the game and that is, that he has been a below average defender the majority of his career. Not because he isn't capable of playing defense but because he's shown his disinterested on that end in comparison to the effort he gives when he has the ball in his hands

so if you arent gonna use stats, i guess that is an admission of defeat

this discussion is over

[FreeThrowLine]

Autocorrect

But why can’t you stay on topic, basketball reference is free

If it happened once I'd believe you, but this is the 3rd time.

Back on topic, I don't need to look up stats that don't paint the whole picture, I've seen enough lazy defense by Harden to be happy to stand by my opinion.

If I was saying he was a worthless player, or a below average scorer, you'd be well within your rights to call me a hater, but I'm not, I'm pointing out what is obvious to most non-biased people that watch the game and that is, that he has been a below average defender the majority of his career. Not because he isn't capable of playing defense but because he's shown his disinterested on that end in comparison to the effort he gives when he has the ball in his hands

so if you arent gonna use stats, i guess that is an admission of defeat

this discussion is over

Yes sir! You are the victor! I have been defeated by your amazing argument that Harden is an excellent defender because a stat that states he was a better defender than Thabo Sefolosha says so!

Sixers fans are the smartest, kindest and most knowledgeable fans in the world, I bow in your presence and apologize for even questioning your authority in this matter.

Harden for defensive player of the year! He is not lazy, I'm just a hater!

[YogurtProducer]

Sheesh who knew one poster could be so insufferable

[YogurtProducer]

1. I never suggested Harden is closer to either, I said the topic itself didn’t make sense

2. Offensively Harden doesn’t ‘match’ MJ

3. DD isn’t “nothing”, it seems you have a hatred for him

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

Harden only could do that because they added a step and gather to travels while also changing the dribbling rules, not to mention calling defensive fouls on offense initiated contact. Literally every one of his moves were illegal in the 90s and he still couldn't out score Jordan.

Why doesn’t every modern player score like Harden does? Why is the total ppg during Hardens career very similar to MJ’s? If offense is easier why hasn’t PPG skyrocketed?

[FreeThrowLine]

Sheesh who knew one poster could be so insufferable

Imagine 2 of them!

[Big J]

He’s closer to DeFrozen because neither play defense and both choke in the playoffs.

[MrBigShot]

I went with DeRozan because Harden is a one way player and generally shrinks in the playoffs instead of elevating his game. MJ was a DPOY level defender.

[The Rebel]

You are wrong

Harden DOES MATCH JORDAN OFFENSIVELY

Harden averaged 45 in a single month, and had a six game stretch averaging 50

Not to mention harden broke Jordan’s point per 100 possessions record

Bottomline is harden is the most efficient volume scorer since Oscar/west

Harden only could do that because they added a step and gather to travels while also changing the dribbling rules, not to mention calling defensive fouls on offense initiated contact. Literally every one of his moves were illegal in the 90s and he still couldn't out score Jordan.

Why doesn’t every modern player score like Harden does? Why is the total ppg during Hardens career very similar to MJ’s? If offense is easier why hasn’t PPG skyrocketed?

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

[sp6r=underrated]

I was surprised this thread reached eight pages. I read through it hoping for an interesting conversation and found the opposite. It features multiple pages of non-humorous sarcasm and juvenile insults masquerading as comedy.

The conversation in this topic serves as a good example of negative persuasion. By being so obnoxious one poster made me move away from his position with him even though I was inclined to agree with him.

[old skool]

The answer to the question posed in the OP seems to be a difference without a distinction, raised in an effort to make a point that is not readily apparent.

[sp6r=underrated]

Harden was closer to Jordan at his best.

Jordan had a GOAT level peak. Many knowledgeable fans still think his peak is the highest of any player in history. He was durable, possessed nearly limitless stamina and could play at a high level on both ends.

No one thinks Harden's peak was GOAT level but it was good enough to warrant MVP consideration in normal seasons. He was the central figure on a 65 win rockets team that pushed one of the great dynasties to 7. His style of play inspired aesthetic disgust but it was effective and influential

Derozan never came close to MVP consideration in the RS. And while Harden wasn't an all-time great post-season performer he wasn't the train wreck Derozan was. His RS plus-minus numbers were mediocre and his post-season plus-minus numbers are ghastly. His box score production collapses as well.

Derozan is a good guy but he's farther from Harden than Harden is from MJ.

[NBA4Lyfe]

Harden only could do that because they added a step and gather to travels while also changing the dribbling rules, not to mention calling defensive fouls on offense initiated contact. Literally every one of his moves were illegal in the 90s and he still couldn't out score Jordan.

Why doesn’t every modern player score like Harden does? Why is the total ppg during Hardens career very similar to MJ’s? If offense is easier why hasn’t PPG skyrocketed?

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

DOES THAT ONLY BENEFIT HARDEN THO

im not getting you're argument, havent players like steve nash and stephen curry also benefited from the same rules as harden

[The Rebel]

Why doesn’t every modern player score like Harden does? Why is the total ppg during Hardens career very similar to MJ’s? If offense is easier why hasn’t PPG skyrocketed?

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

DOES THAT ONLY BENEFIT HARDEN THO

im not getting you're argument, havent players like steve nash and stephen curry also benefited from the same rules as harden

My argument is that you don't have an argument mine just showed that it is considerably easier to score now than ever, other players could score more, but they do not dominate the ball or play enough minutes, doesn't change the fact that it is easier.

[Eric Millegan]

I like the rating comparison some have used. MJ id put as a 99/100, abd Harden at about a 90-91 out of 100 with Derozan about a 79-80. Vote goes to Closer to MJ.

Capping it at 100 is misleading. Jordan if 99 is probably wayyy better than anyone who is 98 and below but the rating makes it look like they were close. So Harden at 91 isn’t even CLOSE to Jordan’s level. They’re not in any kind of tier together. Harden is closer to Dd.

[bebopdeluxe]

I like the rating comparison some have used. MJ id put as a 99/100, abd Harden at about a 90-91 out of 100 with Derozan about a 79-80. Vote goes to Closer to MJ.

Capping it at 100 is misleading. Jordan if 99 is probably wayyy better than anyone who is 98 and below but the rating makes it look like they were close. So Harden at 91 isn’t even CLOSE to Jordan’s level. They’re not in any kind of tier together. Harden is closer to Dd.

Peak 3-year BPM:

Jordan: 12.0

Harden: 10.1







DeRozan: 2.8

[Wallace_Wallace]

I like the rating comparison some have used. MJ id put as a 99/100, abd Harden at about a 90-91 out of 100 with Derozan about a 79-80. Vote goes to Closer to MJ.

Capping it at 100 is misleading. Jordan if 99 is probably wayyy better than anyone who is 98 and below but the rating makes it look like they were close. So Harden at 91 isn’t even CLOSE to Jordan’s level. They’re not in any kind of tier together. Harden is closer to Dd.

Peak 3-year BPM:

Jordan: 12.0

Harden: 10.1

DeRozan: 2.8

Zach LaVine coming into his own these last 3 years has a BPM of 2.96.
Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, someone not in his prime yet, has a BPM of 3.06 these last three years.

Without researching, I'm guessing actual guards/forwards such as Devin Booker, Jayson Tatum, Trae Young, Jimmy Butler, Paul George, you know, players that actually lead to their respective teams to the conferene finals at least once, had higher BPM (3 year peaks) than DeRozan. Also without much hesitation, I will choose his former teammate, Pascal Siakam, over DeRozan. Turns out, DeRozan is aethetically nice to watch, but not very impactful in anyway.

[YogurtProducer]

Harden only could do that because they added a step and gather to travels while also changing the dribbling rules, not to mention calling defensive fouls on offense initiated contact. Literally every one of his moves were illegal in the 90s and he still couldn't out score Jordan.

Why doesn’t every modern player score like Harden does? Why is the total ppg during Hardens career very similar to MJ’s? If offense is easier why hasn’t PPG skyrocketed?

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

In MJ's two highest scoring seasons the NBA averaged 110 and 108ppg. In Harden's is was 111 and 111. When it dropped it was almost entirely due to a drop in pace, not due to better defence.

Per 100 MJ for his career with CHI put up 42 points and Harden is at 39 with HOU (both of their primes). MJ had 7 assists and Harden was at 10.

Any benefit Harden gets from the modern era is more than offset by the slower pace of MJ's era in which he could play more minutes in a game.

Like come on man. Stop trying to downplay one of the greatest offensive players we have ever seen.

[YogurtProducer]

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

DOES THAT ONLY BENEFIT HARDEN THO

im not getting you're argument, havent players like steve nash and stephen curry also benefited from the same rules as harden

My argument is that you don't have an argument mine just showed that it is considerably easier to score now than ever, other players could score more, but they do not dominate the ball or play enough minutes, doesn't change the fact that it is easier.

LOL it is not easier man.

Per 100 possessions in MJ's career the NBA hovered between 105-108 points. In Hardens career it has been 104-112. So at most teams are 4 points per 100 possessions more efficient (and that has only started in the last 2-3 seasons) which can 100% per attributed to teams making 5 or so more 3 points per game instead of taking long 2's. That is it. That is the entire difference.

When MJ put up 37ppg the average ORTG was 108.3. When Harden put up 36ppg the averaged ORTG was 110.4. A whopping 2 point difference.

[The Rebel]

Why doesn’t every modern player score like Harden does? Why is the total ppg during Hardens career very similar to MJ’s? If offense is easier why hasn’t PPG skyrocketed?

What are you talking about? Scoring has went up by 19 ppg, pace, and offensive ratings have all jumped since 98. Hell efg% has Increased by .67% since 99 and ts% by almost .5%, those are all huge differences.

In MJ's two highest scoring seasons the NBA averaged 110 and 108ppg. In Harden's is was 111 and 111. When it dropped it was almost entirely due to a drop in pace, not due to better defence.

Per 100 MJ for his career with CHI put up 42 points and Harden is at 39 with HOU (both of their primes). MJ had 7 assists and Harden was at 10.

Any benefit Harden gets from the modern era is more than offset by the slower pace of MJ's era in which he could play more minutes in a game.

Like come on man. Stop trying to downplay one of the greatest offensive players we have ever seen.

Literally the only one arguing that scoring is the same today as the 90s is you, every rule change has been to help the offense, and now Jordan could play more because of pace? Man your ignorance is showing.