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everdiso wrote:Did they really put Grant Williams, a mediocre 20mpg bench player, on a top 100 list?
I agree, he's probably closere to 50-60.everdiso wrote:Did they really put Grant Williams, a mediocre 20mpg bench player, on a top 100 list?
RipHamilton wrote:michaelm wrote:He won the title with Andrew Wiggins as the second best player on his team. Wiggins actually played very well, which he hadn’t done overly before getting next to Curry. Klay Thompson was working back from two and a half years away from the game having sustained two of the worst injuries in basketball in successive years. Green missed a third of the season with a back injury. Game 1 of the play-offs was the first time all three played together since the 2019 finals, with Curry off he bench at that after his own injury problems. Any team in the NBA could have had GPII on their roster and he was injured for half the play-offs in any case.
What more do you want from Curry ?. I rate Giannis, but the other 3 players you mention have not delivered in the play-offs, to the contrary in Embiid’s case, and I am not yet convinced the games of the other two will ever translate either, great though Jokic has been in successive regular seasons. Curry has not only delivered historically but obviously also just did.so again. And last time I looked GSW were second in the betting for the 2023 title. Do you think this could be vaguely related to having Curry on the team ?.
If I found myself in agreement with ESPN I would be looking to re-examine my positions rather than feeling any vindication.
Wait a moment, are you trying to convince someone that Curry did not have a great team next to him or what? Klay Thompson and Draymond were not in their peak, but still, they are two of the best basketball players in the last 10 years. His defense, IQ, quality, and experience are second to none. Then we have Wiggins, who has made a spectacular playoff defense. Always effective in attack and contributing to both sides of the pitch. And if that wasn't enough, we have Jordan Poole, a talented scorer, who can change the game from the bench. And if he doesn't have his day, nothing happens, there are 3 HOF in the squad still to win the match.
So Curry played with 2 future HOF, and all star starter and with a really talented young player, and coached by another HOF. Warriors won the title because their roster is clearly the best one. The only question was the injuries. Without injuries, it was by far the best squad.
Good luck to the current Curry getting to the conference finals with Jalen Brunson, Maxi Kleber and Dwight Powell. Like Luka would have not won the title with 2 HOF, one all star and Poole on his team.
Curry is a legend. But Luka at 23 is superior to Curry at 34.
And we should not be talking about Jokic, thats a joke. He has played basketball perfectly in the last two years, he cannot contribute more, it is physically impossible. You can go elsewhere to sell the story that they have not delivered in playoffs. It's ridiculous. As if in the playoffs he played baseball and forgot to play basketball. It's the same game. The reality is that in the playoffs you play against the best teams and that's why you lose, there's no more. The reality is that Jokic played with my grandmother on his team. Jordan Poole, who is the best fifth player of the Warriors would have been, clearly, the best player on the Nuggets after Jokic. The same with Klay, Draymond or Wiggings.
Draymond is 43. Klay is 37. Wiggings is 32. Poole is 55. Gordon at 83. Brunson at 67. Talking about Curry as the best player isn't disrespectful to Curry, it's disrespectful to Klay, Wiggings and Draymond.
WarriorGM wrote:nikster wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Giannis is not close to the offensive force Curry is. Curry destroyed the same Celtics defense that Giannis at times struggled with.
Look at their numbers in those series. It wasn't close.
Curry has carried plenty of bad teams to the playoffs. So what?
Wiggins is not really much better than Brunson or Jrue Holiday. Give me a break. Nuggets yes.
How is he not close? You can argue Giannis 2021 run is offensively better then any run of Curry's, with the Finals being more impressive then Curry's.
As for the numbers against the Celtics , Curry was more efficient but Giannis had 3 more points, 2 more assists and pulled in an extra 2 possessions per game with offensive rebounds. Curry's statistically better but it's certainly close.
More important is how the Celtics defended the stars. Celtics played drop coverage on Curry for the first 4 games to focus on his teammates. Predictably Curry tore up that D. As soon as they switched their coverage in game 5 Curry was slowed but Wiggins was freed up and had a big game. Imagine how Giannis would do if Celtics didn't try to wall him off of the paint with help D.
I wouldn't call 2013 a Carry job so Curry has at most carried one bad team to the playoffs (if you consider that 2014 team bad)
There's this story that Giannis's 2021 was somehow much more impressive than Curry's 2015. I passed it off as recency bias right afterward and I didn't want to spoil the party so I deferred comment but enough time has elapsed that the record needs to be set straight: no it wasn't—not even close. Giannis did not lead a team with a better record. Giannis did not face more impressive teams on his way to the championship. Giannis did not lead a less experienced team to victory. The Bucks beat an even less experienced Suns team in the finals than the one Doncic and the Mavericks sent home this year. There is no argument for any of the new guys aside from bigger personal stats which have nebulous correlation with winning.
WarriorGM wrote:nikster wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Giannis is not close to the offensive force Curry is. Curry destroyed the same Celtics defense that Giannis at times struggled with.
Look at their numbers in those series. It wasn't close.
Curry has carried plenty of bad teams to the playoffs. So what?
Wiggins is not really much better than Brunson or Jrue Holiday. Give me a break. Nuggets yes.
How is he not close? You can argue Giannis 2021 run is offensively better then any run of Curry's, with the Finals being more impressive then Curry's.
As for the numbers against the Celtics , Curry was more efficient but Giannis had 3 more points, 2 more assists and pulled in an extra 2 possessions per game with offensive rebounds. Curry's statistically better but it's certainly close.
More important is how the Celtics defended the stars. Celtics played drop coverage on Curry for the first 4 games to focus on his teammates. Predictably Curry tore up that D. As soon as they switched their coverage in game 5 Curry was slowed but Wiggins was freed up and had a big game. Imagine how Giannis would do if Celtics didn't try to wall him off of the paint with help D.
I wouldn't call 2013 a Carry job so Curry has at most carried one bad team to the playoffs (if you consider that 2014 team bad)
There's this story that Giannis's 2021 was somehow much more impressive than Curry's 2015. I passed it off as recency bias right afterward and I didn't want to spoil the party so I deferred comment but enough time has elapsed that the record needs to be set straight: no it wasn't—not even close. Giannis did not lead a team with a better record. Giannis did not face more impressive teams on his way to the championship. Giannis did not lead a less experienced team to victory. The Bucks beat an even less experienced Suns team in the finals than the one Doncic and the Mavericks sent home this year. There is no argument for any of the new guys aside from bigger personal stats which have nebulous correlation with winning.
michaelm wrote:nikster wrote:Hello Brooklyn wrote:
Giannis is not close to the offensive force Curry is. Curry destroyed the same Celtics defense that Giannis at times struggled with.
Look at their numbers in those series. It wasn't close.
Curry has carried plenty of bad teams to the playoffs. So what?
Wiggins is not really much better than Brunson or Jrue Holiday. Give me a break. Nuggets yes.
How is he not close? You can argue Giannis 2021 run is offensively better then any run of Curry's, with the Finals being more impressive then Curry's.
As for the numbers against the Celtics , Curry was more efficient but Giannis had 3 more points, 2 more assists and pulled in an extra 2 possessions per game with offensive rebounds. Curry's statistically better but it's certainly close.
More important is how the Celtics defended the stars. Celtics played drop coverage on Curry for the first 4 games to focus on his teammates. Predictably Curry tore up that D. As soon as they switched their coverage in game 5 Curry was slowed but Wiggins was freed up and had a big game. Imagine how Giannis would do if Celtics didn't try to wall him off of the paint with help D.
I wouldn't call 2013 a Carry job so Curry has at most carried one bad team to the playoffs (if you consider that 2014 team bad)
This is supposed to be a knock on Curry ?.
Even the widely heralded as the best defense in the NBA Celtics who had shut down KD and Giannis and had the DPOY on their roster couldn’t handle Curry with single coverage, and when they adopted a different strategy he did what he does when double or triple teamed or his shot is not falling and facilitated team mates rather than chasing his own numbers regardless.
You can pick your poison with Curry but that is pretty much it, except if other quality scoring options are lacking and LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard have no requirement to defend their direct opponent and are available to double or triple him, then sure he can be stopped, he is a 6’2” PG.
HotRocks34 wrote:Good job by ESPN on the Top 5. Have not paid attention to the rest of the list.
Giannis, Jokic and Embiid are the three most dominant forces in the league right now. That's top 3 (even if Embiid was put at #4, they still had him Top 5).
Then it's down to Luka and Steph.
Both are Top 5, so no one is "snubbed" here. But, the list is forward-looking (who is better this upcoming season) when Steph will turn 35 and Luka will turn 24.
Steph's on the way down. Remember when he started hot last year and the MVP talk fired up? He finished 8th, with Luka 5th. Even though the Warriors had the better team record.
You could put it either way (Steph/Luka), but I would take the 24 year old over the 35 year old.
The real story of the list is that the Top 4 guys are all foreign-born. That's the stunner.
Prez wrote:WarriorGM wrote:nikster wrote:How is he not close? You can argue Giannis 2021 run is offensively better then any run of Curry's, with the Finals being more impressive then Curry's.
As for the numbers against the Celtics , Curry was more efficient but Giannis had 3 more points, 2 more assists and pulled in an extra 2 possessions per game with offensive rebounds. Curry's statistically better but it's certainly close.
More important is how the Celtics defended the stars. Celtics played drop coverage on Curry for the first 4 games to focus on his teammates. Predictably Curry tore up that D. As soon as they switched their coverage in game 5 Curry was slowed but Wiggins was freed up and had a big game. Imagine how Giannis would do if Celtics didn't try to wall him off of the paint with help D.
I wouldn't call 2013 a Carry job so Curry has at most carried one bad team to the playoffs (if you consider that 2014 team bad)
There's this story that Giannis's 2021 was somehow much more impressive than Curry's 2015. I passed it off as recency bias right afterward and I didn't want to spoil the party so I deferred comment but enough time has elapsed that the record needs to be set straight: no it wasn't—not even close. Giannis did not lead a team with a better record. Giannis did not face more impressive teams on his way to the championship. Giannis did not lead a less experienced team to victory. The Bucks beat an even less experienced Suns team in the finals than the one Doncic and the Mavericks sent home this year. There is no argument for any of the new guys aside from bigger personal stats which have nebulous correlation with winning.
Correlation with winning? So when the Warriors missed the playoffs in 2021 and were getting stomped in the 5 games Curry played in 2020 (and certainly would've still missed the playoffs that season even had he played most of the season), was Curry just putting up big personal stats with a nebulous correlation with winning then? Or should we equate individual impact with team success only when it benefits Curry and when it takes away from his competitors?
Also funny that you're nitpicking Giannis' level of competition in the 2021 playoffs and finals in comparison to 2015 Curry's, while conveniently glossing over the fact that the 2015 Warriors faced an injury decimated Cavs team in the finals that was down 2 all-stars, and had to start and play Delly 36 mpg after game 1...And still got taken to 6 games in that series. And also had an overwhelming talent advantage against every other team they played in that run, which btw, none of them were better statistically than the 2021 Suns. That stuff only matters when it's not Curry I guess.
Giannis has B2B MVPs, a DPOY, a championship + finals MVP with a more dominating finals series than any of Curry's, to go along with regular season numbers over the last 3 years that are as as dominant as anyone's. You trying to frame him as just a "new guy" with "no argument" over 2022 Curry, not even peak Curry, is pure homerism on your part.
nikster wrote:michaelm wrote:nikster wrote:How is he not close? You can argue Giannis 2021 run is offensively better then any run of Curry's, with the Finals being more impressive then Curry's.
As for the numbers against the Celtics , Curry was more efficient but Giannis had 3 more points, 2 more assists and pulled in an extra 2 possessions per game with offensive rebounds. Curry's statistically better but it's certainly close.
More important is how the Celtics defended the stars. Celtics played drop coverage on Curry for the first 4 games to focus on his teammates. Predictably Curry tore up that D. As soon as they switched their coverage in game 5 Curry was slowed but Wiggins was freed up and had a big game. Imagine how Giannis would do if Celtics didn't try to wall him off of the paint with help D.
I wouldn't call 2013 a Carry job so Curry has at most carried one bad team to the playoffs (if you consider that 2014 team bad)
This is supposed to be a knock on Curry ?.
Even the widely heralded as the best defense in the NBA Celtics who had shut down KD and Giannis and had the DPOY on their roster couldn’t handle Curry with single coverage, and when they adopted a different strategy he did what he does when double or triple teamed or his shot is not falling and facilitated team mates rather than chasing his own numbers regardless.
You can pick your poison with Curry but that is pretty much it, except if other quality scoring options are lacking and LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard have no requirement to defend their direct opponent and are available to double or triple him, then sure he can be stopped, he is a 6’2” PG.
I'm not saying it's a knock on curry. The poster said Curry's stats were more impressive. I explained why the defensive coverage might lead to a difference in stats.
WarriorGM wrote:It's great that you bring up Curry's opposition in 2015 which predictably has come up because there seems to be the idiotic belief and made-up narrative about how it was a supposedly weak run to downplay Curry's achievements. It should be an instructive comparison because if Curry's 2015 run was unimpressive what are we to make of Giannis's?
The Suns as has already been said saw a better version of the team if we're going by the statistics eliminated by Doncic and the Mavericks this year. In the previous round the Bucks faced the Hawks another team filled with youngsters that hadn't been in a playoffs in years. The Bucks even won the last two games of the series without Giannis playing. The Bucks did face a good Nets team in the conference semi-finals but like the 2015 Cavaliers the Warriors faced they had injuries to two of their all-stars. It went 7 games with the Bucks on the precipice of elimination saved by KD stepping on the line compared to the 6-game series the Warriors had against LeBron and the Cavaliers.
My "framing" is certainly more plausible than the stories that have been concocted by the media for the last half decade. Giannis is a back-to-back MVP? So is Curry. Curry is also the one and only unanimous MVP. Giannis is a DPOY? Curry is a scoring champion. Giannis led his team to a championship? Curry did so more recently as well as having more titles and more finals appearances overall (and that's without even counting the years with Durant).
michaelm wrote:nikster wrote:michaelm wrote:This is supposed to be a knock on Curry ?.
Even the widely heralded as the best defense in the NBA Celtics who had shut down KD and Giannis and had the DPOY on their roster couldn’t handle Curry with single coverage, and when they adopted a different strategy he did what he does when double or triple teamed or his shot is not falling and facilitated team mates rather than chasing his own numbers regardless.
You can pick your poison with Curry but that is pretty much it, except if other quality scoring options are lacking and LeBron James or Kawhi Leonard have no requirement to defend their direct opponent and are available to double or triple him, then sure he can be stopped, he is a 6’2” PG.
I'm not saying it's a knock on curry. The poster said Curry's stats were more impressive. I explained why the defensive coverage might lead to a difference in stats.
The Celtics defended Curry as best they could and he and his team beat them.
I didn't and wouldn't say Giannis has no argument over Curry though, he definitely does have an argument. Curry has been the best player to build a team around for most of a decade imo however, and I would only take Giannis ahead of Curry myself because he has many years of his prime ahead of him; although Curry still may offer GSW enough for 2 more tilts at the title, also imo obviously.
nikster wrote:michaelm wrote:nikster wrote:I'm not saying it's a knock on curry. The poster said Curry's stats were more impressive. I explained why the defensive coverage might lead to a difference in stats.
The Celtics defended Curry as best they could and he and his team beat them.
I didn't and wouldn't say Giannis has no argument over Curry though, he definitely does have an argument. Curry has been the best player to build a team around for most of a decade imo however, and I would only take Giannis ahead of Curry myself because he has many years of his prime ahead of him; although Curry still may offer GSW enough for 2 more tilts at the title, also imo obviously.
The Celtics defended the Warriors the best they could. They weren't focused on stopping Curry as an individual, hence the drop coverage
Prez wrote:WarriorGM wrote:It's great that you bring up Curry's opposition in 2015 which predictably has come up because there seems to be the idiotic belief and made-up narrative about how it was a supposedly weak run to downplay Curry's achievements. It should be an instructive comparison because if Curry's 2015 run was unimpressive what are we to make of Giannis's?
Yeah, I bring up the level of competition because that's what you did with Giannis' 2021 run and then invited the comparison with 2015 Curry. Sorry to break it to you but there's some truth to it in both situations, for both 2015 Curry AND 2021 Giannis.The Suns as has already been said saw a better version of the team if we're going by the statistics eliminated by Doncic and the Mavericks this year. In the previous round the Bucks faced the Hawks another team filled with youngsters that hadn't been in a playoffs in years. The Bucks even won the last two games of the series without Giannis playing. The Bucks did face a good Nets team in the conference semi-finals but like the 2015 Cavaliers the Warriors faced they had injuries to two of their all-stars. It went 7 games with the Bucks on the precipice of elimination saved by KD stepping on the line compared to the 6-game series the Warriors had against LeBron and the Cavaliers.
You can try to twist this any way you want to and bring up the 2022 Suns' loss to try to discredit what they did in 2021, but the reality is the 2021 Suns that Giannis faced in the finals were statistically a better team than any team Curry faced in his 2015 run. Better SRS, better point differential, better win%.
But if we're going with this bizarre logic of trying to discredit a team by looking at their follow-up season, we can play that game with Curry's opponents too. Curry faced Houston in the 2015 WCF, who were a .500 team the following year. They faced the Grizzlies in round 2, who in the following season were a negative SRS team that got swept in the first round. The Pelicans team they beat in the 1st round was a 30-win lotto team the next year. The Cavs were the only team that actually did better the following season, and Curry blew a 3-1 lead to them.
And in the Bucks vs. Nets series, Kyrie at least played halfway through game 4, and they at least got a couple games out of Harden. Kyrie got hurt in game 1 of the 2015 finals and Love played zero minutes the entire series. So if you wanna nitpick about a 6-game series vs. 7-game series, then let's nitpick fully about how many games the opponent lost to their all-stars.My "framing" is certainly more plausible than the stories that have been concocted by the media for the last half decade. Giannis is a back-to-back MVP? So is Curry. Curry is also the one and only unanimous MVP. Giannis is a DPOY? Curry is a scoring champion. Giannis led his team to a championship? Curry did so more recently as well as having more titles and more finals appearances overall (and that's without even counting the years with Durant).
Oh cool, so you agree that Giannis has won almost all the awards Curry has (difference of scoring title vs. DPOY). So framing him as a "new guy" is ridiculous.
LoveMyRaps wrote:The Siakam hate is way too much.
Most underrated player in the league.
Big Dog Yank wrote:LoveMyRaps wrote:The Siakam hate is way too much.
Most underrated player in the league.
Oh please, Siakham is barely a top 80 player. DeMar is ten times the player he is.
Big Dog Yank wrote:LoveMyRaps wrote:The Siakam hate is way too much.
Most underrated player in the league.
Oh please, Siakham is barely a top 80 player. DeMar is ten times the player he is.
WarriorGM wrote:I don't need to twist anything, it is the proposition that all these other players should be ranked higher than Steph that is twisted beyond belief. You're pointing to SRS and point differential to argue beating the Suns made Giannis's run more impressive? 2015 was a time when league average scoring was 10 points lower and yet the team Curry led had an SRS of 10. The only thing more impressive than beating Goliath is being Goliath and Curry can claim both.
I don't see how showing Curry in 2015 faced stronger versions of teams hurts his case. Nor do I see how 2016 hurts either. The Thunder were a stronger team than any Giannis has beaten.
You listed the awards Giannis can claim and I showed Curry one-ups him throughout. Giannis has been great and if Curry wasn't around I could see an argument. But Curry is around. So no dice.
