Was Patrick Ewing an elite center?

[NZB2323]

after already reaching elite defensive level, he ascended completely in1990 - averaging 29pts 11boards and 4 blocks - playing 40 minutes for 82 games. Injuries had already started affecting his fluid gate, but for six years he averaged 25pts 11 boards 3 blocks.
The Dream for about that same amount of time starting in 1990 averaged 26 pts 12 boards 4 blocks.
They were on the same tier -- until Ewing's knees and wrist took away his extra level.
The one thing that this argument seems to miss, especially those who incorrectly think Robinson deserves to even be in this conversation, is that both these guys intimidated the hell out of players, and won b/c of it. Even Shaq was intimidated by an already declining Ewing. Ewing's impact has always been underrated. I still remember how knick fans thought the knicks would be better without an aging Ewing. Yeah, how did that work out.

No reasonable person thinks that Ewing is considered better than Robinson. Robinson was a MVP level player for years, while Ewing just wasn’t. Outside of biased Knick fans, you will not find many people to agree with you.

Plenty of people think that. Robinson laid down and died in front of Hakeem. Patrick went to war.

So Robinson scoring 24 a game on 55.3 TS% is laying down and dying but Ewing scoring 19 a game on 39 TS% is going to war?

[GrindCityHustle]

Can moderators ban original posters for stupid questions like this?

Is that you Rik Smits?

[76ciology]

If he’s elite then that era is weak

He was 1st Team All-NBA in 1989-90. You think that era was weak?

Yes, your reply further proves my point.

If Jokic wins the MVP because of his analytics. Ewing at his peak wont even make the all NBA team. His numbers at his peak (VORP&BPM) are only comparable to Vucevic.

[76ciology]

Rik Smiths made it to the allstar averaging 16.7ppg 6.9rpg and 1.2bpg.

[MagicFan12345]

Can moderators ban original posters for stupid questions like this?

Is that you Rik Smits?

Who? I never heard of him

[John Murdoch]

Hes a guy i never watched tbh..not even highlights

[GrindCityHustle]

The Vucevic comparison lol

[70sFan]

If he’s elite then that era is weak

He was 1st Team All-NBA in 1989-90. You think that era was weak?

Yes, your reply further proves my point.

If Jokic wins the MVP because of his analytics. Ewing at his peak wont even make the all NBA team. His numbers at his peak (VORP&BPM) are only comparable to Vucevic.

BPM and VORP are not analytics, these are just boxscore composites...

[76ciology]

He was 1st Team All-NBA in 1989-90. You think that era was weak?

Yes, your reply further proves my point.

If Jokic wins the MVP because of his analytics. Ewing at his peak wont even make the all NBA team. His numbers at his peak (VORP&BPM) are only comparable to Vucevic.

BPM and VORP are not analytics, these are just boxscore composites...

Educate me. What’s the difference?

Analytics definition

“information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.“

[70sFan]

Yes, your reply further proves my point.

If Jokic wins the MVP because of his analytics. Ewing at his peak wont even make the all NBA team. His numbers at his peak (VORP&BPM) are only comparable to Vucevic.

BPM and VORP are not analytics, these are just boxscore composites...

Educate me. What’s the difference?

Analytics definition

“information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.“

Yeah and what information does BPM give you? Do you know for what purpose this stat exist?

These questions should be always asked before you start using the numbers.

[AussieBuck]

Could see Vucevic getting an all NBA first team over 27 year old Hakeem

[Wilfried]

Don't know if a lot of people agree, but I loved the Knicks-Rockets finals in 1994.
By far, not the best basketball, but the tension, fight and grid, ... and 2 HOF centers going against each other.

[76ciology]

BPM and VORP are not analytics, these are just boxscore composites...

Educate me. What’s the difference?

Analytics definition

“information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.“

Yeah and what information does BPM give you? Do you know for what purpose this stat exist?

These questions should be always asked before you start using the numbers.

So BPM and VORP not “ information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics”? Because you told me that they are not analytics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytics

[70sFan]

Educate me. What’s the difference?

Analytics definition

“information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics.“

Yeah and what information does BPM give you? Do you know for what purpose this stat exist?

These questions should be always asked before you start using the numbers.

So BPM and VORP not “ information resulting from the systematic analysis of data or statistics”? Because you told me that they are not analytics.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytics

What information? BPM is just a mediocre boxscore estimation of real PM impact. It does a decent enough approximation of offensive impact, but it doesn't capture defensive impact at all. It also doesn't adjust for era differences well.

Professional basketball analysts don't use boxscore composites. It's a crude way to judge a real impact. We moved beyond that since 2010, you know?

[Hoop Hunter]

I don't like the Rik Smits disrespect. Of course Ewing was better, but head to head Rik held his own against him. Pacers had a winning playoff record against Ewing and the Knicks. Rik was a big part of that.

Rik was born in the wrong era. He was a finesse center in the era of bruizers and very rough play. Played against a lot of the greats and held his own while literally getting beat up.

Rik would really have been great in today's NBA. He had every shot, low post hooks, mid range, He could shoot the 3, they just didn't allow him to back then. He'd be a 7"4" 38-40% 3pt shooter now. You should have seen how effortlessly he shot them in shoot arounds and warm ups. His defense would be better with today's rules, he blocked shots even back then. With the tougher rules against rough play, he'd thrived in todays game.

[TwitterFingers]

Put some respect on Pat’s name. He lost some of his athleticism due to bad knees, but he was a monster

[Sedale Threatt]

No reasonable person thinks that Ewing is considered better than Robinson. Robinson was a MVP level player for years, while Ewing just wasn’t. Outside of biased Knick fans, you will not find many people to agree with you.

Plenty of people think that. Robinson laid down and died in front of Hakeem. Patrick went to war.

So Robinson scoring 24 a game on 55.3 TS% is laying down and dying but Ewing scoring 19 a game on 39 TS% is going to war?

Patrick sweated harder.

[FuShengTHEGreat]

after already reaching elite defensive level, he ascended completely in1990 - averaging 29pts 11boards and 4 blocks - playing 40 minutes for 82 games. Injuries had already started affecting his fluid gate, but for six years he averaged 25pts 11 boards 3 blocks.
The Dream for about that same amount of time starting in 1990 averaged 26 pts 12 boards 4 blocks.
They were on the same tier -- until Ewing's knees and wrist took away his extra level.
The one thing that this argument seems to miss, especially those who incorrectly think Robinson deserves to even be in this conversation, is that both these guys intimidated the hell out of players, and won b/c of it. Even Shaq was intimidated by an already declining Ewing. Ewing's impact has always been underrated. I still remember how knick fans thought the knicks would be better without an aging Ewing. Yeah, how did that work out.

No reasonable person thinks that Ewing is considered better than Robinson. Robinson was a MVP level player for years, while Ewing just wasn’t. Outside of biased Knick fans, you will not find many people to agree with you.

Plenty of people think that. Robinson laid down and died in front of Hakeem. Patrick went to war.

To be fair Ewing had more defensive help vs Olajuwon than Robinson. Oakley and Mason also guarded him in stretches.

Also Robinson was dealing with the fact that malcontent Rodman literally threw in the towel that series and pretty much quit on the Spurs.

[meekrab]

Plenty of people think that. Robinson laid down and died in front of Hakeem. Patrick went to war.

So Robinson scoring 24 a game on 55.3 TS% is laying down and dying but Ewing scoring 19 a game on 39 TS% is going to war?

Patrick sweated harder.

That's typically only an advantage in greco roman wrestling.

[Capn'O]

The tiers are strange since there are levels within each tier, so let's do this with 1/2 tiers in between. This is for the early-mid '90s only.

Tier 1:
Olajuwon, Robinson

Tier 1 1/2:
Shaq (at the time)

Tier 2: Ewing

Tier 2 1/2: Mourning, Mutombo

Tier 3: Smits, Divac, Daugherty

Tier 4: Elden Campbell, Seikaly, Parish, Duckworth

Parish in Tier 4 WTH......you do realize that Parish uis a HOF player. Those players shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath with the Chief

I always just assume posts like this are the result of only seeing Parish from age 35 onwards (ya know, the last 15 years of his career - J/K)

The tier is honest fine for 90s only. He was far better than that in the 80s.