Can Jokic finish top 10 all time without a championship?

[dhsilv2]

I'll ignore the fact that the clippers didn't want to be in the bubble, pretty publicly and also struggled in round 1. Or the fact that they were the 2 seed, and not the title favorites. That was the Lakers, who easily beat Denver, and Milwaukee, who had the best record in the league and was the 1 seed. But live your dream.

Jokic was the leading scorer in 2 of the 7 games in the clippers series. He averaged 24ppg in the series. It's pretty good, and yes they did win. It doesn't make him an all time top 10 player though, or anything close to it. So yeah, that is what I mean.

lol...and now we start the moving goal posts.

Dude, you tried to argue there was a KG era in this thread. Nothings being moved. It wasn't a historic series from Jokic by any means. You think it was? Is that the trademark moment for his top 10 career haha? Putting up 24/13 in a second round series vs. the clippers in the bubble.

You didn't say it had to be a historic series. You said he needed to upset a team. He did that. He did it while having historically great stats in the series without question as well.

And yes the 6 year period I pointed out does give a great argument for being the KG era. He was over that stretch the best player in the league.

[dhsilv2]

I've wondered the same for Giannis. 15 players have won 2 or more MVPs ever. Two of them have currently just entered their prime and are active (with goat levels of impact). It's not completely out of the question that either of Giannis or Jokic (or both) win one more MVP. Only 8 guys have ever won three or more, with one (Moses) barely hanging on to Top 20(?) status, especially among the "Basketball before 2015 didn't exist" types (analytics geeks). If one, or both, wins one more MVP do they enter locked Top 20 territory?

Sent from my LM-K500 using RealGM mobile app

Wait what analytics guy isn't an NBA historian too?

I was being facetious about the folks who get territorial about whichever era they feel was "the best" for hoops.

As for guys like Jokic and Gianni, I would think to be considered Top 10 by most would require them being able to lead a team to 2 Finals wins. Reading some "All-Time" lists across these forums, I've generally seen that "Top 25" lists (or so) have players that have at least won once during their careers. With some exceptions, I've never seen anyone ranked Top 10 with only one Finals win (or none).

At least 25% if not more of the lets say more respected people here have KG in their top 10. Even Ben Taylor had KG in his top 10 and he might be the most respected guy anywhere on that subject right now.

[Bobbymcgee]

The ESPN articles I linked below from 2020 has Steph Curry ranked 13th on their list of all time players.

Jokic will never be top 10 all time.

If Jokic doesn't win a title or multiple titles then he will be lumped in with the other great players to never win one. Like Dominique Wilkins.

If he can't even carry a team to the NBA Finals then I would rank him beneath those that did. Guys like Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone.

Unless you want to rename this as top 10 regular season players all time then maybe Jokic can be considered in that conversation.

Top 10: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105801/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-10-1

11 thru 40: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29105681/ranking-top-74-nba-players-all-nos-40-11

[Cubbies2120]

lol...and now we start the moving goal posts.

Yep, first it was "upset a team", and he did (the favorites to win it all going into 2nd round of playoffs), then it became "Eh well he was only leading scorer twice"...he's gonna keep moving the goalposts as he sees fit, and if/when Jokic wins his 3rd MVP he'll keep moving them next it'll be he ONLY has one ring if/when he wins one...etc.

Nah it was never that, except in your head. I want to see him dominate a playoff series and beat a good team, one time. You're saying he's a top 10 player ever. His big win according to you here is beating the clippers in round 2 in the bubble. He averaged 24/13 in the series. That isn't that impressive or top 10 worthy, especially as his crowning achievement. That is and has been my point. Also that sportsbetting dime article cites pretty clearly that the clippers were not considered title favorites for much of that season, or entering the playoffs. It was the Lakers and the Bucks. The Bucks odds dropped as they were losing to Miami. You made the clippers out to sound like the title favorites all year and entering the playoffs. They werent.

Is it more impressive beating a team that was title favorites going into regular season (and ended up 8 seed), or more impressive to beat the odds-on favorite at a time when more information was available?

He has dominated playoff series, and the only teams to beat him weren't just "good teams", but the best team in the NBA in 2/3 seasons, and 2nd best in the other season... I think you seem to miss that. He dominated playoff series but came up short against literally the best teams, while missing his 2nd best player (at minimum) in 2 of those 3 seasons.

Which of your Top 10 all time players beat the 2nd best team in the NBA 4/7 times while missing their 2 next best players? Just curious Is it MJ maybe winning without Pippen/Rodman? Or Magic without Kareem/Worthy?

[Cubbies2120]

I'll ignore the fact that the clippers didn't want to be in the bubble, pretty publicly and also struggled in round 1. Or the fact that they were the 2 seed, and not the title favorites. That was the Lakers, who easily beat Denver, and Milwaukee, who had the best record in the league and was the 1 seed. But live your dream.

Jokic was the leading scorer in 2 of the 7 games in the clippers series. He averaged 24ppg in the series. It's pretty good, and yes they did win. It doesn't make him an all time top 10 player though, or anything close to it. So yeah, that is what I mean.

lol...and now we start the moving goal posts.

Dude, you tried to argue there was a KG era in this thread. Nothings being moved. It wasn't a historic series from Jokic by any means. You think it was? Is that the trademark moment for his top 10 career haha? Putting up 24/13 in a second round series vs. the clippers in the bubble.

I think you should read the VERY FIRST SENTENCE in this thread, my guy...

If Jokic continues his play for many more seasons, can he be the only top 10 player without a title? (I don't think there's a top 10 player without a title)

The assumption is he continues his absolute dominance over the last 2 years (that's what this "level of play" is referring to, FYI)...

[Duke4life831]

I just want to put this out there, unless Denver trades for someone this year. We will now be looking at 8 seasons with him not playing alongside an all star teammate, let alone an All NBA quality teammate. So at best for him now will be year 9 when he gets to play alongside a current all star. To put that into perspective. We all know how bad KG had it in Minny, in his first 9 years in the league he did play alongside 3 different guys that made the all star team (1 guy that made an All NBA 2nd team).

We are sadly getting close to Jokic being in the NBA for a decade and never playing with an all star. How far down the all time list do you have to go to find a player that had a similar situation?

[hardenASG13]

lol...and now we start the moving goal posts.

Dude, you tried to argue there was a KG era in this thread. Nothings being moved. It wasn't a historic series from Jokic by any means. You think it was? Is that the trademark moment for his top 10 career haha? Putting up 24/13 in a second round series vs. the clippers in the bubble.

You didn't say it had to be a historic series. You said he needed to upset a team. He did that. He did it while having historically great stats in the series without question as well.

And yes the 6 year period I pointed out does give a great argument for being the KG era. He was over that stretch the best player in the league.

This thread kind of implies he's done historic things, doesn't it? Discussing him as a top 10 player ever. Maybe you all put more into regular season than me, or how history remembers basketball in general. It's usually based on playoff performances, taking over series, etc.

[Sofia]

As a point of reference, using the latest Top 100 from the player comparison board, which is over 2 years old and I believe will be updated after this season, the only player in the Top 20 without a ring is Karl Malone at #16.

Of note ahead of the next list, active players just behind Malone in 2020 are #22 KD, #23 CP3 and #24 Steph. Malone could be further down the list in the next update.

The next highest without a ring is Barkley at #21.

Not having Jokic in a top 10 or 15 because he doesn’t have a title isn’t a knock on Jokic, it’s just a damn hard list to crack without one.

[SOA]

I just want to put this out there, unless Denver trades for someone this year. We will now be looking at 8 seasons with him not playing alongside an all star teammate, let alone an All NBA quality teammate. So at best for him now will be year 9 when he gets to play alongside a current all star. To put that into perspective. We all know how bad KG had it in Minny, in his first 9 years in the league he did play alongside 3 different guys that made the all star team (1 guy that made an All NBA 2nd team).

We are sadly getting close to Jokic being in the NBA for a decade and never playing with an all star. How far down the all time list do you have to go to find a player that had a similar situation?

Dirk played with two all stars from 2004 to 2012: The year Nash left and the year after they won the championship. In those 8 years, he played with two all stars. Josh Howard and Jason Kidd, Josh Howard wasn't anything better than Aaron Gordon. And Jason Kidd made it because there was a snowstorm in Dallas during that year and they had to name an alternate because of an injury.

And during those 8 years... Dirk made the Finals twice by himself.

Jokic or Garnett or any other great player should at least make the Finals by themselves at some point.

All stars aren't all they are cracked up to be. Most all stars are nothing special..... give Jokic Jamal Magloire or Bad Miller so you could say he had an all star... would he get any farther? Probably not.

An the answer to the question: no. Jokic has to win in order to be put in the Top 10. Winning matters. PER/TS%/WS/ and all the other advanced stats don't mean a thing if you aren't winning.

[Duke4life831]

As a point of reference, using the latest Top 100 from the player comparison board, which is over 2 years old and I believe will be updated after this season, the only player in the Top 20 without a ring is Karl Malone at #16.

Of note ahead of the next list, active players just behind Malone in 2020 are #22 KD, #23 CP3 and #24 Steph. Malone could be further down the list in the next update.

The next highest without a ring is Barkley at #21.

Not having Jokic in a top 10 or 15 because he doesn’t have a title isn’t a knock on Jokic, it’s just a damn hard list to crack without one.

But lets say he wins the MVP again this year or at least one more time in his career. That would put him in a very rare list of guys with at least 3 MVPs. Hard to think there are multiple 3x MVP winners outside of the top 15.

[SOA]

As a point of reference, using the latest Top 100 from the player comparison board, which is over 2 years old and I believe will be updated after this season, the only player in the Top 20 without a ring is Karl Malone at #16.

Of note ahead of the next list, active players just behind Malone in 2020 are #22 KD, #23 CP3 and #24 Steph. Malone could be further down the list in the next update.

The next highest without a ring is Barkley at #21.

Not having Jokic in a top 10 or 15 because he doesn’t have a title isn’t a knock on Jokic, it’s just a damn hard list to crack without one.

But lets say he wins the MVP again this year or at least one more time in his career. That would put him in a very rare list of guys with at least 3 MVPs. Hard to think there are multiple 3x MVP winners outside of the top 15.

But the guys who are 3 time MVPs are multiple time NBA finalists and multiple time NBA champions.

[Duke4life831]

As a point of reference, using the latest Top 100 from the player comparison board, which is over 2 years old and I believe will be updated after this season, the only player in the Top 20 without a ring is Karl Malone at #16.

Of note ahead of the next list, active players just behind Malone in 2020 are #22 KD, #23 CP3 and #24 Steph. Malone could be further down the list in the next update.

The next highest without a ring is Barkley at #21.

Not having Jokic in a top 10 or 15 because he doesn’t have a title isn’t a knock on Jokic, it’s just a damn hard list to crack without one.

But lets say he wins the MVP again this year or at least one more time in his career. That would put him in a very rare list of guys with at least 3 MVPs. Hard to think there are multiple 3x MVP winners outside of the top 15.

But the guys who are 3 time MVPS are multiple time NBA finalists and multiple time champions.

Yes who got to play alongside other all stars, all nba, HOFs. Here is the list of more modern (leave off Wilt and Russell) 3x MVP winners and some of the guys they played with.

Kareem: Oscar Robinson, Magic
MJ: Pippen, Rodman
LeBron: Wade, Kyrie
Malone: Dr J, Barkley
Bird: McHale, Parrish
Magic: Kareem, Worthy

Who are the 2 best players Jokic has played with? Murray, Gallinari? Kind of see the difference here?

[Cubbies2120]

As a point of reference, using the latest Top 100 from the player comparison board, which is over 2 years old and I believe will be updated after this season, the only player in the Top 20 without a ring is Karl Malone at #16.

Of note ahead of the next list, active players just behind Malone in 2020 are #22 KD, #23 CP3 and #24 Steph. Malone could be further down the list in the next update.

The next highest without a ring is Barkley at #21.

Not having Jokic in a top 10 or 15 because he doesn’t have a title isn’t a knock on Jokic, it’s just a damn hard list to crack without one.

But lets say he wins the MVP again this year or at least one more time in his career. That would put him in a very rare list of guys with at least 3 MVPs. Hard to think there are multiple 3x MVP winners outside of the top 15.

But the guys who are 3 time MVPs are multiple time NBA finalists and multiple time NBA champions.

And remove the #2 and #3 option from any of those 3 time MVPs and how many times are they NBA finalists / champions? Pick anyone from that list, remove their #2 and #3 with zero replacement.

[SOA]

But lets say he wins the MVP again this year or at least one more time in his career. That would put him in a very rare list of guys with at least 3 MVPs. Hard to think there are multiple 3x MVP winners outside of the top 15.

But the guys who are 3 time MVPs are multiple time NBA finalists and multiple time NBA champions.

And remove the #2 and #3 option from any of those 3 time MVPs and how many times are they NBA finalists / champions? Pick anyone from that list, remove their #2 and #3 with zero replacement.

Well, according to another thread in this forum, they are actually better without them than they are with them.... **shrugs**

[Cubbies2120]

But the guys who are 3 time MVPs are multiple time NBA finalists and multiple time NBA champions.

And remove the #2 and #3 option from any of those 3 time MVPs and how many times are they NBA finalists / champions? Pick anyone from that list, remove their #2 and #3 with zero replacement.

Well, according to another thread in this forum, they are actually better without them than they are with them.... **shrugs**

One person's opinion, who is getting torn up in that thread?

[CS707]

It's a top 10 career so he'd have to do something pretty unprecedented to achieve that status without a championship. The reality is that circumstance affects every aspect of a player's career, not just whether they win a ring, and some players are just luckier than others in that regard.

[dhsilv2]

Dude, you tried to argue there was a KG era in this thread. Nothings being moved. It wasn't a historic series from Jokic by any means. You think it was? Is that the trademark moment for his top 10 career haha? Putting up 24/13 in a second round series vs. the clippers in the bubble.

You didn't say it had to be a historic series. You said he needed to upset a team. He did that. He did it while having historically great stats in the series without question as well.

And yes the 6 year period I pointed out does give a great argument for being the KG era. He was over that stretch the best player in the league.

This thread kind of implies he's done historic things, doesn't it? Discussing him as a top 10 player ever. Maybe you all put more into regular season than me, or how history remembers basketball in general. It's usually based on playoff performances, taking over series, etc.

History strongly favors the regular season when it comes to how people rank players. The focus on the playoffs is relatively new, likely spiking under Jordan. But Jokic's playoff play is all time great already. Just because the play doesn't translate to wins doesn't make it any less great. Jordan's most memorable game for many was in a loss to the Celtics. It was still a legendary game.

[dhsilv2]

It's a top 10 career so he'd have to do something pretty unprecedented to achieve that status without a championship. The reality is that circumstance affects every aspect of a player's career, not just whether they win a ring, and some players are just luckier than others in that regard.

I guess we should separate "top 10 player based on their play" and "top 10 resume which takes their individual play out and focuses exclusively on awards, honors, and team results"

[CS707]

It's a top 10 career so he'd have to do something pretty unprecedented to achieve that status without a championship. The reality is that circumstance affects every aspect of a player's career, not just whether they win a ring, and some players are just luckier than others in that regard.

I guess we should separate "top 10 player based on their play" and "top 10 resume which takes their individual play out and focuses exclusively on awards, honors, and team results"

Or just count both.

[Lalouie]

if the nba is entering parity like the 70s when there were EIGHT different ring teams, and jokic doesnt get a ring,,,,,,,,,

THEN NO, especially when rings defines them in the first place.

it would have meant in a decade of more than several evenly matched contenders jokic couldn't pull one out, and lack of support would be no excuse