Poll: Public sees MJ as GOAT

[metafisical]

MJ did a couple of cool things for basketball and the NBA. Definitely deserves to be top 10 on anyone's GOAT basketball player list. Very savvy businessman though.

[Nate505]

MJ did a couple of cool things for basketball and the NBA. Definitely deserves to be top 10 on anyone's GOAT basketball player list. Very savvy businessman though.

For most people, that spot in the Top 10 is usually somewhere between 1 and 2, and usually it's 1.

[Goomba3666]

"High IQ" takes in these debates apparently just means typing in basketballreference.com in your browser and navigating to stats. Lol. Does context and actually watching basketball matter anymore?

Basketball Fandom delusion is reaching UFC levels. Reminds me the middle age dudes at Applebees watching a fight and swallowing nachos and Miller Lights swearing they could take Anderson Silva.

We need order.

[mysticOscar]

GOAT criteria for me is simple, its a combination of individual dominance over there peers and team success.

I see MJ as GOAT because he had the best combination of both that I have seen. Lebron is my #2 since his been the most dominant since MJ and the team success his managed to achieve in his career has been the 2nd best that i have witnessed. I started watching NBA in the early 80s and there was a lot of reverance for Kareem during that time but it wasn't his prime. However, from what I have heard and what I can see from the stats and the team success he helped with...his my #3.

So I have 1. MJ 2. Lebron 3. Kareem

In terms of MJ vs Lebron...for me MJ had a bigger gap against his peers..against his contemprary wing and guard playerse, it wasnt even close...and he also put a gap between himself and some of the all time great forwards and centers that dominated this era.

For the team success, MJ just another level. 6 championships in 13 years...and 2 of those years he was semi retired and 1 year he was out for most of the season with an injury. So essentially 6 rings in 11 years. And not only that, his team wasn't some underdog in those championship years. His team was regarded as the best team in the league and compared to the greatest teams in the NBA history. Which really speaks loudly about how successful his teams were.

And also winning a 3peat seems to be underrated by some people on how difficult that is and MJ's team did it twice. Basically with a totally different cast outside of Pippen.

[The Explorer]

And also winning a 3peat seems to be underrated by some people on how difficult that is and MJ's team did it twice. Basically with a totally different cast outside of Pippen.

Agree with this point in particular. If you read the PC board, people there have no value for repeat or 3 peat championships. Steve Kerr has spoken to how difficult that is to achieve after the Warriors failed to achieve that. Repeating back to back alone is very difficult, and I give James credit for that, but winning 3 in a row, twice, in the modern era, is standalone achievement only MJs Bulls have done. Its a level of dominance we haven't seen from any other player nor team since. And if you want to included Russell, that's fine, its still only 2 players in 75 years of history.

[MavsDirk41]

Kareem only has one title for the team that drafted him, so why was he considered the greatest / 2nd greatest ever to play?

Nobody is changing anybodys mind on who they think the goat is on this board. That i can be pretty confident in saying.

I think if LeBron would win one more it would probably switch over another 5-10%, but nothing drastic. I feel like most MJ fans made up their mind once he retired, no matter the next players to come.

And i feel like james fans have had their mind made up about him years ago. I think its funny how some said that after he broke Kareems scoring record that it officially made him the goat when these same people were saying he was the goat years ago. We argue about this topic weekly and nothing changes. Im not changing your mind and your not changing my mind. Lets talk about something else on this board. Just my two cents.

[MavsDirk41]

Water is wet.

Anyone with an IQ above 80 knows MJ is the GOAT.

It's actually disgusting to see LeBron even mentioned in the same breath.

LeBron is not even top 5.

This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

I have no dog in this fight because Kareem is my GOAT, but as I said, it's just funny to see the points made by both sides and figure out whose arguments make more sense for someone with high or low IQ.

Sounds like your opinion to me. I can name a dozen reasons why i have jordan and kareem ranked higher than james. Funny that ive never seen james ranked higher on any other poll besides real gm pc board.

[MavsDirk41]

MJ did a couple of cool things for basketball and the NBA. Definitely deserves to be top 10 on anyone's GOAT basketball player list. Very savvy businessman though.

James did some cool things for the nba and is clearly a top 3 player of all time.

[Goomba3666]

Nobody is changing anybodys mind on who they think the goat is on this board. That i can be pretty confident in saying.

I think if LeBron would win one more it would probably switch over another 5-10%, but nothing drastic. I feel like most MJ fans made up their mind once he retired, no matter the next players to come.

And i feel like james fans have had their mind made up about him years ago. I think its funny how some said that after he broke Kareems scoring record that it officially made him the goat when these same people were saying he was the goat years ago. We argue about this topic weekly and nothing changes. Im not changing your mind and your not changing my mind. Lets talk about something else on this board. Just my two cents.

They said he was goat after the 2016 Finals and STILL starting to same conversations 7 years later.

Said that 2020 Global Pandemic ring was the toughest ever as well.

There was also people saying that he was the GOAT if he could drag Hall Of Famers like Westbrook to the Finals.

They set really low bars for him expecting he'd hurdle them, but lately he can't even reach those.

Also, you barely hear people bring up those 9 straight Finals appearances ever since he came to the big boy conference. Lol.

Lebron stans, whether on TV or internet, make things so much worse for him

[Salieri]

Water is wet.

Anyone with an IQ above 80 knows MJ is the GOAT.

It's actually disgusting to see LeBron even mentioned in the same breath.

LeBron is not even top 5.

This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

I have no dog in this fight because Kareem is my GOAT, but as I said, it's just funny to see the points made by both sides and figure out whose arguments make more sense for someone with high or low IQ.

Sounds like your opinion to me. I can name a dozen reasons why i have jordan and kareem ranked higher than james. Funny that ive never seen james ranked higher on any other poll besides real gm pc board.

What sounds like my opinion? That the arguments given in the PC board are better than counting shoes sold? Yes, yes it is my opinion. What's wrong with stating my opinion, though? You gave yours right in your second sentence. This is a forum full of personal opinions, no need to single out anyone for stating theirs.

Anyway, I repeat that I have no dog in the LeBron-MJ fight because none are my personal GOAT. I was just stating that the arguments for MJ tend to be less advanced/more casual than the ones for LeBron. That's expected, though. As evidenced in this thread and pretty much everywhere you look at, the overwhelming majority of the people have MJ as GOAT. That means plenty of casuals with shallow arguments born out of ignorance. Of course, it doesn't mean there aren't good, well reasoned arguments favoring MJ. There are, it's just they're used less often comparatively, diluted by an ocean of amateur takes.

[The Explorer]

Anyway, I repeat that I have no dog in the LeBron-MJ fight because none are my personal GOAT. I was just stating that the arguments for MJ tend to be less advanced/more casual than the ones for LeBron. That's expected, though. As evidenced in this thread and pretty much everywhere you look at, the overwhelming majority of the people have MJ as GOAT. That means plenty of casuals with shallow arguments born out of ignorance. Of course, it doesn't mean there aren't good, well reasoned arguments favoring MJ. There are, it's just they're used less often comparatively, diluted by an ocean of amateur takes.

What is a casual fan vs a non-casual fan? Can you define it?

[MavsDirk41]

This is funny, because in the PC board there are a bunch of posters who have LeBron higher than MJ in their GOAT lists, and from their arguments you can see their IQ is above 80. In fact, their arguments are galaxies better than the ones wielded here, such as rings and threepeats (team accomplishments, not dependant on the player), or amount of shoes sold (LOL).

I have no dog in this fight because Kareem is my GOAT, but as I said, it's just funny to see the points made by both sides and figure out whose arguments make more sense for someone with high or low IQ.

Sounds like your opinion to me. I can name a dozen reasons why i have jordan and kareem ranked higher than james. Funny that ive never seen james ranked higher on any other poll besides real gm pc board.

What sounds like my opinion? That the arguments given in the PC board are better than counting shoes sold? Yes, yes it is my opinion. What's wrong with stating my opinion, though? You gave yours right in your second sentence. This is a forum full of personal opinions, no need to single out anyone for stating theirs.

Anyway, I repeat that I have no dog in the LeBron-MJ fight because none are my personal GOAT. I was just stating that the arguments for MJ tend to be less advanced/more casual than the ones for LeBron. That's expected, though. As evidenced in this thread and pretty much everywhere you look at, the overwhelming majority of the people have MJ as GOAT. That means plenty of casuals with shallow arguments born out of ignorance. Of course, it doesn't mean there aren't good, well reasoned arguments favoring MJ. There are, it's just they're used less often comparatively, diluted by an ocean of amateur takes.

Casuals with shallow arguments and diluted by an ocean of amateur takes lol?? What does this mean? Ive been watching the nba since 87. And im not sure what advanced arguments there are for lebron james that you are talking about. I really dont get your point.

[Salieri]

Sounds like your opinion to me. I can name a dozen reasons why i have jordan and kareem ranked higher than james. Funny that ive never seen james ranked higher on any other poll besides real gm pc board.

What sounds like my opinion? That the arguments given in the PC board are better than counting shoes sold? Yes, yes it is my opinion. What's wrong with stating my opinion, though? You gave yours right in your second sentence. This is a forum full of personal opinions, no need to single out anyone for stating theirs.

Anyway, I repeat that I have no dog in the LeBron-MJ fight because none are my personal GOAT. I was just stating that the arguments for MJ tend to be less advanced/more casual than the ones for LeBron. That's expected, though. As evidenced in this thread and pretty much everywhere you look at, the overwhelming majority of the people have MJ as GOAT. That means plenty of casuals with shallow arguments born out of ignorance. Of course, it doesn't mean there aren't good, well reasoned arguments favoring MJ. There are, it's just they're used less often comparatively, diluted by an ocean of amateur takes.

Casuals with shallow arguments and diluted by an ocean of amateur takes lol?? What does this mean? Ive been watching the nba since 87. And im not sure what advanced arguments there are for lebron james that you are talking about. I really dont get your point.

Are you really asking what does it mean? I wasn't aware it was such an obscure concept that it needed explaining, but okay.

If you cannot see how an argument built around a comprehensive list of boxscore and advanced stats, properly contextualized and accounting for strength of teammates, rivals and era is much better than another argument built around number of finals lost or number of rings or number of scoring titles... Well, I can't help you.

And for the third time: they're not my arguments. I just said I've seen them being used to defend LeBron's case and they looked better than the average argument used to defend MJ. Of course, as I also said, there are also very good arguments to defend MJ's case, but they're not used very often. Amateur takes outnumber them greatly.

[MavsDirk41]

What sounds like my opinion? That the arguments given in the PC board are better than counting shoes sold? Yes, yes it is my opinion. What's wrong with stating my opinion, though? You gave yours right in your second sentence. This is a forum full of personal opinions, no need to single out anyone for stating theirs.

Anyway, I repeat that I have no dog in the LeBron-MJ fight because none are my personal GOAT. I was just stating that the arguments for MJ tend to be less advanced/more casual than the ones for LeBron. That's expected, though. As evidenced in this thread and pretty much everywhere you look at, the overwhelming majority of the people have MJ as GOAT. That means plenty of casuals with shallow arguments born out of ignorance. Of course, it doesn't mean there aren't good, well reasoned arguments favoring MJ. There are, it's just they're used less often comparatively, diluted by an ocean of amateur takes.

Casuals with shallow arguments and diluted by an ocean of amateur takes lol?? What does this mean? Ive been watching the nba since 87. And im not sure what advanced arguments there are for lebron james that you are talking about. I really dont get your point.

Are you really asking what does it mean? I wasn't aware it was such an obscure concept that it needed explaining, but okay.

If you cannot see how an argument built around a comprehensive list of boxscore and advanced stats, properly contextualized and accounting for strength of teammates, rivals and era is much better than another argument built around number of finals lost or number of rings or number of scoring titles... Well, I can't help you.

And for the third time: they're not my arguments. I just said I've seen them being used to defend LeBron's case and they looked better than the average argument used to defend MJ. Of course, as I also said, there are also very good arguments to defend MJ's case, but they're not used very often. Amateur takes outnumber them greatly.

Everybody has their opinion and ive said many times that 3 or 4 guys havd a legitimate argument for goat title. What i will ask you is that do you think people on here have more valid arguments than analysts or espn or cbs? Ive seen some arguments on here for james and they dont sound comprehensive or analytical to me. Some on here have been watching the nba for 15 years or less and thats fine but that is not the same as watching the nba and ranking older players from the 80s and 90s. I can look at box scores and watch a couple videos of wilt or russell but i didnt watch them play so its hard for me to rank them vs jordan, bird, magic, kareem, and james cause i watched these players play live during seasons of the nba.

[Joao Saraiva]

Not surprising. I think many people don't like LeBron, and while I don't necessarily disagree with MJ being the GOAT, even if LeBron goes on putting on and on a better case most people won't shift their opinion cause they literally hate/dislike James.

[KrAzY3]

MJ did a couple of cool things for basketball and the NBA. Definitely deserves to be top 10 on anyone's GOAT basketball player list. Very savvy businessman though.

For most people, that spot in the Top 10 is usually somewhere between 1 and 2, and usually it's 1.

Saying he deserves top ten in basketball is like saying may be that guy Tom Brady was a top 10 QB. It's just a pretty weird way of putting it.

even if LeBron goes on putting on and on a better case most people won't shift their opinion cause they literally hate/dislike James.

Well he's on year 5 in LA and he has one ring which is great ordinarily but not great if you want to be the greatest. He seems more likely to miss the playoffs as win a championship on any given year, not exactly bolstering his resume.

[Blaze4G]

Jordan's flame burned brighter but Lebron's flame has burned more continuously for longer. It's impossible to say which player in NBA history would dominate the most when comparing across eras and stats don't tell the whole story. You have to use it all in evaluating the greats. You need the eye test, stats, style of play for the era, competition level, accomplishments, media narrative, fan narrative, career highlight reel, etc...

For me it's Jordan #1 and Lebron #2. They both separate themselves from everyone else IMO. Jordan gets the edge for me because I value his peak greatness more than Lebron's longevity. Jordan has by far the best career prime in NBA history. Perhaps even sports history. I'm also more impressed with Jordan's accomplishments over Lebron's. I hold Lebron in very high regard but the NBA GOAT title has got to be one of the hardest to obtain. A player needs to have a near perfect career in order to dethrone Jordan and Lebron has too many down moments in his prime to overcome Jordan. Failing to win a 3peat in Miami is the thing that hurts Lebron's case the most in my book.

This. I always bring my goat argument down to if you value longevity over peak then lebron, otherwise MJ.

Most if not all of lebron records are based on longevity. MJ records are based on peak. During MJ peak where he won those 6 championships, I don't think any lebron led teams in any year would have beat the bulls.

[trueballer7]

This forced debate, a pretend debate cause nobody actually places the traveling bricklayer over Jordan, does two things.
1. It lures the public in, making lots of money for everybody involved. Basically parasites feeding off MJs name even in retirement.
2. Its a sneaky way of just leapfrogging a number of basketball giants. 207 centimetros and 120 kilogrammos of a man, and you wouldnt trust giving him the ball with his back to the basket even if he was guarded by a midget and he better than Magic in the game of basketball.

[G35]

Good to see the public who voted used common sense.

You know the public by definition is usually wrong and lacks knowledge right?


There isn't any topic that exist where the majority of people are well informed on.

Does this statement apply to posters on RGM.....

[dc]

I wouldn't take to heart what the "public" thinks of any kind of real sports discussion. Back in 2015, 34%(!) of people surveyed in a national poll thought that a 52 year old Jordan could beat a 31 year old Lebron one on one.

https://www.si.com/nba/2015/05/14/michael-jordan-lebron-james-best-all-time-poll