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NO-KG-AI wrote:Kobe gets a pass for more gaffes than anyone else, and gets more supernatural and unprovable superlatives attributed to him than anyone else.
sashaturiaf wrote:Sofia wrote:
You could solve the homelessness problem if turned your advocating for Kobe to advocating for something meaningful
Says the guy with 28k posts on an internet site in service of his king.
Get offline please
-sasha
Strike: Baiting/Trolling
euroleague wrote:His team would be considered a super-team in other eras, and that's why commentators like Charles Barkley criticize LBJ for his complaining. He has talent on his team, he just doesn't try during the regular season
Franco wrote:sashaturiaf wrote:Sofia wrote:
You could solve the homelessness problem if turned your advocating for Kobe to advocating for something meaningful
Says the guy with 28k posts on an internet site in service of his king.
Get offline please
-sasha
Strike: Baiting/Trolling
You have almost as many posts as me and I joined 4 damn years earlier, so why are you talking like this about other people?
The irony here is quite amusing
Sofia wrote:Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”
Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”
FrobeBryant wrote:Sofia wrote:Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”
Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”
Raped someone? I guess guilty until proven innocent is alright in your book but I belief in due process. And LeBron traded his whole team away for Anthony Davis so let’s not start pointing fingers about who’s a good teammate and who isn’t.
Hellcrooner wrote:FrobeBryant wrote:Sofia wrote:Kobe raped someone, trashed his team mates to random kids in a car park, demanded team mates be traded or he would leave, and demanded a trade - “mamba mentality, what loyalty, I <3 Kobe”
Lebron goes to a stupid high school pep rally - “ughhh **** Lebron, I hate his off court antics”
Raped someone? I guess guilty until proven innocent is alright in your book but I belief in due process. And LeBron traded his whole team away for Anthony Davis so let’s not start pointing fingers about who’s a good teammate and who isn’t.
if you are innocent you go to trial, win trial and sink with a countersue the one that slandered you.
if you are an amoral richman you PAY money for it it to go away witouth going to trial.
Wich one did saint kobey do?
FrobeBryant wrote:Hellcrooner wrote:FrobeBryant wrote:
Raped someone? I guess guilty until proven innocent is alright in your book but I belief in due process. And LeBron traded his whole team away for Anthony Davis so let’s not start pointing fingers about who’s a good teammate and who isn’t.
if you are innocent you go to trial, win trial and sink with a countersue the one that slandered you.
if you are an amoral richman you PAY money for it it to go away witouth going to trial.
Wich one did saint kobey do?
I can counter by saying if you’ve truly been so wronged like being raped, you would want said rapist behind bars to pay for their crimes right? No amount in the world would make something like that right. Yet she settled just as soon as she was set to take the stand. How convenient…
Onlytimewilltel wrote:FrobeBryant wrote:Hellcrooner wrote:
if you are innocent you go to trial, win trial and sink with a countersue the one that slandered you.
if you are an amoral richman you PAY money for it it to go away witouth going to trial.
Wich one did saint kobey do?
I can counter by saying if you’ve truly been so wronged like being raped, you would want said rapist behind bars to pay for their crimes right? No amount in the world would make something like that right. Yet she settled just as soon as she was set to take the stand. How convenient…
It’s almost as if some people value money very very highly and maybe don’t want to go through stress and embarrassment of a trial. (A lot of actual rapes are never reported because women feel scared or embarrassed about the situation and don’t want anymore drama and BS by going through a lawsuit).
I don’t know what happened that night, but not sure we can just dismiss it as “clearly nothing”
FrobeBryant wrote:Onlytimewilltel wrote:FrobeBryant wrote:
I can counter by saying if you’ve truly been so wronged like being raped, you would want said rapist behind bars to pay for their crimes right? No amount in the world would make something like that right. Yet she settled just as soon as she was set to take the stand. How convenient…
It’s almost as if some people value money very very highly and maybe don’t want to go through stress and embarrassment of a trial. (A lot of actual rapes are never reported because women feel scared or embarrassed about the situation and don’t want anymore drama and BS by going through a lawsuit).
I don’t know what happened that night, but not sure we can just dismiss it as “clearly nothing”
And Kobe probably didn’t want to have his name and his family dragged through a long trial where anything can happen. He was already embarrassed about publicly humiliating his wife by his infidelity and I’m sure his lawyers and/or PR team advised him to settle. Like you said, no one knows what happened that night and it just seems moot to speculate.
Sedale Threatt wrote:If there's one thing I learned in 20 years of watching Kobe, it's that he was going to get his shots up no matter what. I don't know if that qualifies as stad-padding or not, but it's definitely in the ballpark. Watching him try to learn the team concept over the first decade or so of his career was just painful.
Doctor MJ wrote:I don't understand why people jump in a thread and say basically, "This thing you're all talking about. I'm too ignorant to know anything about it. Lollerskates!"
flytimes11 wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:flytimes11 wrote:
So what separates Stockton and cp3? Do the numbers not favor Stockton? I like advanced stats but I don’t think you can base your entire argument off of them. Jokic will go down as the greatest to ever pick up a ball.
Well the chart shows a pretty HUGE gap in terms of peak play while stockton played FOREVER. I can see cases for either of those two as we have data that is conflicting on Stockton vs CP3. The longevity of Stockton also is just unreal. But I do tend to be more longevity driven than some, but not as much as Elgee who's data that was from. So I'd take CP3 myself, forget where he ranked them.
And you say that about Jokic as if he might not just be the greatest ever. He's got a lot of ball left to play, but he 100% could get into those talks if he keeps this up into his mid 30's.
Ok. I’m just curious where MVP Westbrook ranks as far as advanced statistics and if his PEAK was higher than kd or steph. I can understand an argument of KG having a higher peak than Kobe even though I don’t like the argument of Peak vs all time because basketball has always been about longevity and not cherry-picking a couple seasons of a player to say they are better than another. I don’t see what argument he would have over him all time. Plus it just seems like winning is the least important metric in stats/Peak based discussions. Harden has a higher Vorp than Kobe has ever had. So Harden peaked higher? I admittedly am not big on stuff like Fg%. But what does that really mean when it didn’t lead to any championships? Look at Harden in elimination games, I am to believe he was better than Kobe?
It would be hard for me to ever place Jokic over Jordan or LeBron.
Onlytimewilltel wrote:Kobeskillz wrote:durden_tyler wrote:He's rightfully criticized. He was good but not GOAT good.
No. Brandon Roy was good. Kobe was one of the greatest players of all time. 7 Finals and 5 chips.
You don't do that by just being "good".
Robbery Horry has 7 chips, you don’t do that by just being “good”. Oh wait…
Kobeskillz wrote:Onlytimewilltel wrote:Kobeskillz wrote:No. Brandon Roy was good. Kobe was one of the greatest players of all time. 7 Finals and 5 chips.
You don't do that by just being "good".
Robbery Horry has 7 chips, you don’t do that by just being “good”. Oh wait…
Yeah cause Horry was the main star on his teams.
dhsilv2 wrote:flytimes11 wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:
Well the chart shows a pretty HUGE gap in terms of peak play while stockton played FOREVER. I can see cases for either of those two as we have data that is conflicting on Stockton vs CP3. The longevity of Stockton also is just unreal. But I do tend to be more longevity driven than some, but not as much as Elgee who's data that was from. So I'd take CP3 myself, forget where he ranked them.
And you say that about Jokic as if he might not just be the greatest ever. He's got a lot of ball left to play, but he 100% could get into those talks if he keeps this up into his mid 30's.
Ok. I’m just curious where MVP Westbrook ranks as far as advanced statistics and if his PEAK was higher than kd or steph. I can understand an argument of KG having a higher peak than Kobe even though I don’t like the argument of Peak vs all time because basketball has always been about longevity and not cherry-picking a couple seasons of a player to say they are better than another. I don’t see what argument he would have over him all time. Plus it just seems like winning is the least important metric in stats/Peak based discussions. Harden has a higher Vorp than Kobe has ever had. So Harden peaked higher? I admittedly am not big on stuff like Fg%. But what does that really mean when it didn’t lead to any championships? Look at Harden in elimination games, I am to believe he was better than Kobe?
It would be hard for me to ever place Jokic over Jordan or LeBron.
Westbrook does very well in box metrics. RAPM +/- were much less favorable with him. I don't have elgee's CORP stats, but given he uses WOWY and RAPM in that I'd assume he'd be lower than these other elite peaks.
Remember I started by explaining why CURRY would rank ahead of Kobe and we added KG for context. In terms of longevity KG is also ahead of Kobe in the metrics, obviously Curry isn't. Thus why if you rank Curry over Kobe you can still take KG. Meanwhile if you rank Kobe over Curry you could ALSO still take KG while being consistent.
Harden peaks over Kobe in VORP. RAPM data doesn't paint as strong a picture. We have good and strong data to show that Harden has under-preformed beyond just statistical noise in the playoffs, so you certainly should discount for that. This is a clear example of where we have good data.
As for the winning stuff, if KG never went to Boston, and we didn't see him have one of the greatest defensive years ever. I think it would be MUCH harder to make a strong case beyond just box/+/- stats, but because we do have the data point with the celtics and his one year where he got a 0 time allstar in Cassell (though imo he'd been at that level a while) and it turned that Wolves team into a legit contender...I think it's safe to say his impact/play was absolutely winning basketball. He just did have historically, truly unprecedented bad teammates. We can even get there with some stats to compare his 2007 team to Kobe's 2005 team and look at the metrics. Kobe's team wasn't good. KG's was idiotically bad.
Oh and yeah Jokic passing Lebron or Jordan is a VERY VERY tough task. I'd bet a lot against it, but it's not crazy to think it's possible. Very few guys however have sustained the greatness of Jokic the last 3 years as long as MJ and Lebron did.
NO-KG-AI wrote:Sedale Threatt wrote:If there's one thing I learned in 20 years of watching Kobe, it's that he was going to get his shots up no matter what. I don't know if that qualifies as stad-padding or not, but it's definitely in the ballpark. Watching him try to learn the team concept over the first decade or so of his career was just painful.
The big dog gets to eat first.
Kobeskillz wrote:Onlytimewilltel wrote:Kobeskillz wrote:No. Brandon Roy was good. Kobe was one of the greatest players of all time. 7 Finals and 5 chips.
You don't do that by just being "good".
Robbery Horry has 7 chips, you don’t do that by just being “good”. Oh wait…
Yeah cause Horry was the main star on his teams.
flytimes11 wrote:dhsilv2 wrote:flytimes11 wrote:
Ok. I’m just curious where MVP Westbrook ranks as far as advanced statistics and if his PEAK was higher than kd or steph. I can understand an argument of KG having a higher peak than Kobe even though I don’t like the argument of Peak vs all time because basketball has always been about longevity and not cherry-picking a couple seasons of a player to say they are better than another. I don’t see what argument he would have over him all time. Plus it just seems like winning is the least important metric in stats/Peak based discussions. Harden has a higher Vorp than Kobe has ever had. So Harden peaked higher? I admittedly am not big on stuff like Fg%. But what does that really mean when it didn’t lead to any championships? Look at Harden in elimination games, I am to believe he was better than Kobe?
It would be hard for me to ever place Jokic over Jordan or LeBron.
Westbrook does very well in box metrics. RAPM +/- were much less favorable with him. I don't have elgee's CORP stats, but given he uses WOWY and RAPM in that I'd assume he'd be lower than these other elite peaks.
Remember I started by explaining why CURRY would rank ahead of Kobe and we added KG for context. In terms of longevity KG is also ahead of Kobe in the metrics, obviously Curry isn't. Thus why if you rank Curry over Kobe you can still take KG. Meanwhile if you rank Kobe over Curry you could ALSO still take KG while being consistent.
Harden peaks over Kobe in VORP. RAPM data doesn't paint as strong a picture. We have good and strong data to show that Harden has under-preformed beyond just statistical noise in the playoffs, so you certainly should discount for that. This is a clear example of where we have good data.
As for the winning stuff, if KG never went to Boston, and we didn't see him have one of the greatest defensive years ever. I think it would be MUCH harder to make a strong case beyond just box/+/- stats, but because we do have the data point with the celtics and his one year where he got a 0 time allstar in Cassell (though imo he'd been at that level a while) and it turned that Wolves team into a legit contender...I think it's safe to say his impact/play was absolutely winning basketball. He just did have historically, truly unprecedented bad teammates. We can even get there with some stats to compare his 2007 team to Kobe's 2005 team and look at the metrics. Kobe's team wasn't good. KG's was idiotically bad.
Oh and yeah Jokic passing Lebron or Jordan is a VERY VERY tough task. I'd bet a lot against it, but it's not crazy to think it's possible. Very few guys however have sustained the greatness of Jokic the last 3 years as long as MJ and Lebron did.
My thing with advanced stats is that the games still have to be played. Looking at the numbers on paper would make one think there is no need to watch the game I’m sure advanced stats would have said 2010 Celtics would have swept the 2010 lakers but that did not happen or 07 mavs losing first round, 11 spurs losing first round etc. It’s the reason the 2016 finals is so crazy because warriors still had to win a 4th game which they never did. While Kobe’s play style could be inefficient it still proved to win. That’s part of who he was as a player, relentless going at the opponent every possession wearing them down mentally and physically. Now of course you could argue his shot selection is what holds him back, and his numbers reflect that. Stats tell you a lot but they do not tell you everything. And what they don’t tell you is that Kobe is a great shooter, that took difficult shots – partly because he was an aggressive scorer, and partly because he had to be an aggressive scorer, at times. The Lakers did not have that many great backcourt shooters (klay/kyrie etc) Kobe could pass to and rely on, particular in the middle of his prime (the mid 2000s). The Lakers roster in the late 2000s did rely on him making tough shots – there were not other players that could help generate an open shot for Kobe.
Another note I want to add is Team USA struggled in the Olympics until Kobe joined and in the gold medal game the offense was ran through him when LeBron and Wade were on the team. He also had a much better showing than Duncan.
Lastly the accolades and accomplishments speak for themselves. It seems disingenuous to imply that Kobe is Kobe because of his teammates. He led a team to 3 straight finals and was part of a 3 peat, something very rare in the NBA. We can’t just assume because some of these players have better advanced stats that if we put them in the same circumstances they win as much as Kobe because basketball isn’t played on excel spreadsheets. No hypotheticals, he actually won 5 championships. It would be hard for me to put Jokic, Steph or Kg over Kobe because given the circumstances and scenarios he was able to do everything those guys did.