Peak only - Kawhi vs Kobe

[Ralof]

Kawhi peak was Jordan/LeBron level,he was that player in a single season

[Green89]

Kobe, he was a lockdown defender and his offense is now underrated because of the era he played in

Kobe was a better defender than Kawhi? I have read one of the most insane argument ever

Arguing against a 9 time first team All NBA Defender is worse.

[ReginaldDwight]

Kobe, he was a lockdown defender and his offense is now underrated because of the era he played in

Kobe was a better defender than Kawhi? I have read one of the most insane argument ever

Arguing against a 9 time first team All NBA Defender is worse.

Well they didnt watch him play dude, Kobe was a beast on defense. If you are under 30 you likely didnt watch prime Kobe. Also Kawhi missing 25 percent of his best season kinda rules him out title or not. Kobe literally had to be hurt to not play not just alittle banged up. I actually really liked Kawhi coming out of college and hes exceeded what i thought he would be but hes never been as good as Kobe was. Offense wise its not even a comparison.

[Goomba3666]

This is why children and neck beards votes don’t matter in comparison to real ballers. Kawhi is an amazing player but to put him over peak Kobe is a freaking joke. Y’all should be ashamed lol

This. Glad I got to see Kobe play. Because of this, I don’t have to legitimize insane debates by going back and forth with people.

Very few people have actually watched Kobe pay before 2013. I remember watching him in the playoffs against the Kings and Spurs. Most people on this board don’t even realize that Jalen Rose intentionally injured him in the 2000 finals but will still post those stats.

What the hell are you talking about? Do you think 14 year olds are using message boards in 2023? Most people on this board if anything grew up with Kobe Bryant which would make them nostalgic for him

The overwhelming majority of people on RealGm were watching basketball during Kobe Bryant's prime. Like 80% . It's like you're so shocked some people do not think he is the GOAT you have to assume they must not have seen him play. Jesus christ.

Nah- not about him being the GOAT. Lol. It's more about the questionable takes on here. The craziest takes are from the people who didn't watch his career. It's like you guys posting Wilt and Bill Russell stats in arguments.

I don't know - I guess I see through it.

[RRR3]

Yeah the GB hates Kobe loves Doncic.

Im going to say Kobe here. Kawhi was always a suoer super super role player.

A role player who won a ring as the best player?

[One_and_Done]

And that even at his "peak" he missed games.

Kobe being underrated by the general board is a time honored tradition here.

If anything he's wildly overrated. The vote is way closer than it should be.

Even if you think Leonards peak was greater, why would the difference be that much skewed where it wouldnt be close? What in the world has Leonard done to impress you that much?

As I mentioned, he's notably better on O and much better on D, so what does that leave? Kobe was supposedly a better passer, but since he hated passing it any advantage in that regard is moot.

[MavsDirk41]

If anything he's wildly overrated. The vote is way closer than it should be.

Even if you think Leonards peak was greater, why would the difference be that much skewed where it wouldnt be close? What in the world has Leonard done to impress you that much?

As I mentioned, he's notably better on O and much better on D, so what does that leave? Kobe was supposedly a better passer, but since he hated passing it any advantage in that regard is moot.

I dont see where he is notably better offensively? More efficient? Yea, but notably better, i dont see it….if you take probably the 3 best years for both;

Leonard
26.6 7.3 3.3 on 50/37/85 OBPM 7.5 with a TS%58
27.1 7.1 4.9 on 47/37/88 OBPM 6.4 with a TS%57
24.8 6.5 5.2 on 51/39/88 OBPM 5.2 with a TS% 56

Bryant
35.4 5.3 4.5 on 45/35/85 OBPM 6.1 with a TS%60
31.6 5.7 5.4 on 46/34/84 OBPM 6.5 with a TS%58
28.3 6.3 5.4 on 46/36/84 OBPM 6.0 with a TS%62


Kobe was way more dependable too. But offensively Leonard was more efficient from the field and from 3 but there isnt some large gap.

[Johnny Bball]

So much Kobe.

[One_and_Done]

Even if you think Leonards peak was greater, why would the difference be that much skewed where it wouldnt be close? What in the world has Leonard done to impress you that much?

As I mentioned, he's notably better on O and much better on D, so what does that leave? Kobe was supposedly a better passer, but since he hated passing it any advantage in that regard is moot.

I dont see where he is notably better offensively? More efficient? Yea, but notably better, i dont see it….if you take probably the 3 best years for both;

Leonard
26.6 7.3 3.3 on 50/37/85 OBPM 7.5 with a TS%58
27.1 7.1 4.9 on 47/37/88 OBPM 6.4 with a TS%57
24.8 6.5 5.2 on 51/39/88 OBPM 5.2 with a TS% 56

Bryant
35.4 5.3 4.5 on 45/35/85 OBPM 6.1 with a TS%60
31.6 5.7 5.4 on 46/34/84 OBPM 6.5 with a TS%58
28.3 6.3 5.4 on 46/36/84 OBPM 6.0 with a TS%62


Kobe was way more dependable too. But offensively Leonard was more efficient from the field and from 3 but there isnt some large gap.

In 2017 Kawhi put up 39/9/5 per 100, 121 Ortg and 610 TS% in the RS, and a ridiculous 40/11/7, 136 Ortg and 672 TS% in the playoffs.

You tell me the year Kobe had you want to put against it. 2009 is often cited as his best year, so I've used those numbers below. Happy to hear a different year floated:

Kobe: 38/7/7 per 100, 115 Ortg, on 561. TS% in the RS. As you can see Kawhi eats his lunch. In the playoffs it's even worse. Kobe's numbers are 39/7/7, 117 Ortg on 564 TS%, way behind Kawhi.

[MavsDirk41]

As I mentioned, he's notably better on O and much better on D, so what does that leave? Kobe was supposedly a better passer, but since he hated passing it any advantage in that regard is moot.

I dont see where he is notably better offensively? More efficient? Yea, but notably better, i dont see it….if you take probably the 3 best years for both;

Leonard
26.6 7.3 3.3 on 50/37/85 OBPM 7.5 with a TS%58
27.1 7.1 4.9 on 47/37/88 OBPM 6.4 with a TS%57
24.8 6.5 5.2 on 51/39/88 OBPM 5.2 with a TS% 56

Bryant
35.4 5.3 4.5 on 45/35/85 OBPM 6.1 with a TS%60
31.6 5.7 5.4 on 46/34/84 OBPM 6.5 with a TS%58
28.3 6.3 5.4 on 46/36/84 OBPM 6.0 with a TS%62


Kobe was way more dependable too. But offensively Leonard was more efficient from the field and from 3 but there isnt some large gap.

In 2017 Kawhi put up 39/9/5 per 100, 121 Ortg and 610 TS% in the RS, and a ridiculous 40/11/7, 136 Ortg and 672 TS% in the playoffs.

You tell me the year Kobe had you want to put against it. 2009 is often cited as his best year, so I've used those numbers below. Happy to hear a different year floated:

Kobe: 38/7/7 per 100, 115 Ortg, on 561. TS% in the RS. As you can see Kawhi eats his lunch. In the playoffs it's even worse. Kobe's numbers are 39/7/7, 117 Ortg on 564 TS%, way behind Kawhi.

I think you like the “per 100” more than i do. Why dont we go off what they actually did when they were on the court rather than go by “what might have been”? Instead of arguing the numbers and statistics that i pulled from basketball reference you jump to “per 100” which is imo a flawed analysis. As you can see their numbers are similar, their actual numbers for their best 3 years and Kobe played more games. Leonard has never been able to stay on the court.

[One_and_Done]

Per 100 provides a more accurate representation of what they did. Using ppg makes no sense. If a guy only plays 32mpg because his team is blowing out the other team every game should we punish him for that? If another player is a stat padder who pads in garbage time (e.g. Kobe's 81 point game) should we reward that? Let's use the tool that compares like for like.

In today's game players are, quite sensibly, rested more for all sorts of reasons. One is the far greater demand modern D places on them running all over the court. It's not like Kobe's day when he could just chill while guys iso'd.

[brackdan70]

Lots of you never experienced prime Kobe apparently

[KingFox]

LOL Kobe. I actually don't care what the numbers say. I know my heart sank every time that mfer had the ball in the final 6 minutes of any ball game i'm not sure this league will have another similar player.

[KingFox]

In 2017 Kawhi put up 39/9/5 per 100, 121 Ortg/102 Drtg and 610 TS% in the RS, and a ridiculous 40/11/7, 136 Ortg/110 Drtg and 672 TS% in the playoffs. Seems pretty clear Kawhi was better than Kobe on offense too.

Except that was in 2017. The eras were so different that means nothing

Exactly. Kawhi is in no way shape or form better on offense than Kobe freaking Bryant, i'm pretty sure even Kawhi would attest to that. Stop this and i am a Laker HATER

[One_and_Done]

LOL Kobe. I actually don't care what the numbers say. I know my heart sank every time that mfer had the ball in the final 6 minutes of any ball game i'm not sure this league will have another similar player.

No kidding.

[CodeBreaker]

LOL Kobe. I actually don't care what the numbers say. I know my heart sank every time that mfer had the ball in the final 6 minutes of any ball game i'm not sure this league will have another similar player.

Kawhi for the Clippers is doing the same

[Bleed-Green]

Do you consider Kobe's peak like 06-08 or 01-03? Because I'm not sure 01-03 kobe wasn't on Raptor's Leonard's level on defense. The gap there is offense. Leonard was just better.

I consider Kobe’s Peak to be 2009. But at Kobe’s defensive peak, I’d still say he was probably worth maybe a third of what Kawhi was worth over an average player defensively. Kobe at his peak was a very good defender who could occasionally sniff greatness on key possessions in the playoffs. Peak Kawhi was a freak. He’s probably the only perimeter volume scorer in history who could provide the defensive value of an elite big. He was a one man wrecking crew.

Leonard's defense by 2017 wasn't remotely elite though. The spurs were famously not just worse defensively with Leonard on the floor, but astonishingly worse. Now, I think that's mostly noise, but to claim he was having big man level defensive impact that year simply isn't supported with any metrics or scouting work we've seen.

If I remember right, opponents would choose to play 4 on 5 on the offence during that period of Kawhi's career. Basically, they'd just have the guys defended by Kawhi pass the ball and instead target guys like Parker:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/

[AdagioPace]

I read the entire thread. Its fine to argue the flamboyant peak kobe over kawhi (offensive lift and durability) but please dont bring up kobe's farcical all-nba defense selections.

[Bash1676]

Who you got for their single season peak?

Lebron fan boy,the question should be who peaked higher between lebron and Kawhi! Kawhi has been giving lebron the bus8ness since he was with Miami. Lebron conveniently avoids guarding Kawhi or Durant when they square up except some few occasions he had no choice but to guard them due to switching or for a play lol

[dhsilv2]

I consider Kobe’s Peak to be 2009. But at Kobe’s defensive peak, I’d still say he was probably worth maybe a third of what Kawhi was worth over an average player defensively. Kobe at his peak was a very good defender who could occasionally sniff greatness on key possessions in the playoffs. Peak Kawhi was a freak. He’s probably the only perimeter volume scorer in history who could provide the defensive value of an elite big. He was a one man wrecking crew.

Leonard's defense by 2017 wasn't remotely elite though. The spurs were famously not just worse defensively with Leonard on the floor, but astonishingly worse. Now, I think that's mostly noise, but to claim he was having big man level defensive impact that year simply isn't supported with any metrics or scouting work we've seen.

If I remember right, opponents would choose to play 4 on 5 on the offence during that period of Kawhi's career. Basically, they'd just have the guys defended by Kawhi pass the ball and instead target guys like Parker:
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/

That isn't 4 on 5. That would be 4 on 4 which would actually be smart in general. But the best argument if you want to argue Leonard is a better defender was luck in 3 point shooting. None the less, his defense wasn't DPOY level.