Does CP3 have any argument as being better than Durant all time?

[Mr Peanut]

CP3 > Booker.

CP3 led that team to the finals.

CP3 was the missing piece that guided the Suns to the Finals but he wasn't the Suns best player that season, or at least not outright like Durant was on the 2012 Thunder.

Season stats:
Booker - 25.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.3 apg on 58.7% TS
CP3 - 16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 8.9 apg on 59.9% TS

Playoff stats:
Booker - 27.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.5 apg on 55.8% TS
CP3 - 19.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 8.6 apg on 58.4% TS

CP3 was clearly the better playmaker and Booker the better scorer. I think at best you can make the argument that they were 1A and 1B, but if you're going to definitively state that CP3 > Booker then you're going to have to bring some actual facts to the table.

We have stats the put everything together so we don't have to type out a lot of numbers.

CP3 vs Booker

VORP 1.2 vs 0.4
BPM 5.0 vs -0.4
WS 2.5 vs 1.2
WS/48 .178 vs .066
PER 20.7 vs 16.1

If we're just talking box score stats the gap between the two was massive.

I presume you're quoting advanced stats from the playoffs only but we're actually talking about the 2020/21 season as a whole. And the advanced stats are complementary to the debate but they don't trump everything else.

The original point is probably starting to get a bit lost here. Durant was clearly the best player on the 2012 Thunder that went to the Finals, Paul was not clearly the best player on the 2021 Suns. Just a single point in the long list of why there's no reasonable case to say Paul is better than Durant all time.

[dhsilv2]

CP3 was the missing piece that guided the Suns to the Finals but he wasn't the Suns best player that season, or at least not outright like Durant was on the 2012 Thunder.

Season stats:
Booker - 25.6 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 4.3 apg on 58.7% TS
CP3 - 16.4 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 8.9 apg on 59.9% TS

Playoff stats:
Booker - 27.3 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 4.5 apg on 55.8% TS
CP3 - 19.2 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 8.6 apg on 58.4% TS

CP3 was clearly the better playmaker and Booker the better scorer. I think at best you can make the argument that they were 1A and 1B, but if you're going to definitively state that CP3 > Booker then you're going to have to bring some actual facts to the table.

We have stats the put everything together so we don't have to type out a lot of numbers.

CP3 vs Booker

VORP 1.2 vs 0.4
BPM 5.0 vs -0.4
WS 2.5 vs 1.2
WS/48 .178 vs .066
PER 20.7 vs 16.1

If we're just talking box score stats the gap between the two was massive.

I presume you're quoting advanced stats from the playoffs only but we're actually talking about the 2020/21 season as a whole. And the advanced stats are complementary to the debate but they don't trump everything else.

The original point is probably starting to get a bit lost here. Durant was clearly the best player on the 2012 Thunder that went to the Finals, Paul was not clearly the best player on the 2021 Suns. Just a single point in the long list of why there's no reasonable case to say Paul is better than Durant all time.

Yeah those are the basic box stats for the playoffs which seemingly is where we always go with these discussions. Though if we're looking at advanced stats and regular season, LEBRON WAR for example has CP3 at 8.4 vs Booker at 5.10. So a still massive gap. And basically the same gap as Westbrook and KD in 2012. Throw in if you want to talk about voting, CP3 was 5th in MVP voting that year too, no other sun received votes.

But if you're going with "my teammates were better than your teammates so I'm a better player" which is what ALL discussions that get into team results ultimately because we can't separate the player from teammates when the measure is just team success.

The arguments are clear as day for why someone might value CP3 over KD here. To argue there's no argument is rather absurd. There might not be an argument under YOUR criteria which might be different from others. But to argue there's no argument is just false.

[UglyBugBall]

I'd argue it's the reverse. Kobe is the casual fans pick, as you'd expect because he's more famous and marketed. CP3 is the more informed choice.

5 titles over 0. And I'm quite the opposite of a casual fan. Not even close. CP3 is great, I don't just look at trophies, but I'd never put him ahead of Kobe. Most people wouldn't. Calling yourself the one who makes the "informed choice" makes it sound like it's not even an opinion, just you know more, which is hilarious.

One and Done is a Kobe fanatic but in the wrong way, you have to understand that commentary related to Kobe is going to be as far from objective as one can get lol

Curious to hear a couple of these arguments since there are plenty to choose from.


I’m one of KDs biggest critics, but really I can’t think of any reason why CP3 could be ahead of KD.

Kd has one mvp, cp3 none, neither have a championship so you have to look at their impact when judging them. Cp3 gas a major edge as a leader, KD obviously a better individual performer. I think cp3 is better as a team player. Sure neither ultimately ever got it done at the highest level, but cp3 has anchored multiple top teams. He elevates his teammates better than kd.

I know he jumped on GS and all, but are we just erasing KD's Warriors championships?

You could replace KD with CP3, or any top 30 player and they win the championship, so I cannot credit KD with those titles when comparing him to a player that didn't have that kind of good fortune if you will. It's more fair to compare him on even ground without that baggage

[One_and_Done]

You could replace Kobe with CP3 or KD over Kobe's career, and those guys win more titles than Kobe did.

[og15]

5 titles over 0. And I'm quite the opposite of a casual fan. Not even close. CP3 is great, I don't just look at trophies, but I'd never put him ahead of Kobe. Most people wouldn't. Calling yourself the one who makes the "informed choice" makes it sound like it's not even an opinion, just you know more, which is hilarious.

One and Done is a Kobe fanatic but in the wrong way, you have to understand that commentary related to Kobe is going to be as far from objective as one can get lol

Kd has one mvp, cp3 none, neither have a championship so you have to look at their impact when judging them. Cp3 gas a major edge as a leader, KD obviously a better individual performer. I think cp3 is better as a team player. Sure neither ultimately ever got it done at the highest level, but cp3 has anchored multiple top teams. He elevates his teammates better than kd.

I know he jumped on GS and all, but are we just erasing KD's Warriors championships?

You could replace KD with CP3, or any top 30 player and they win the championship, so I cannot credit KD with those titles when comparing him to a player that didn't have that kind of good fortune if you will. It's more fair to compare him on even ground without that baggage

Well not really because CP's fit on the Warriors doesn't make as much sense. Now, I get the implication, but we can't erase what happened regardless. You can add context or whatever, but we can't simply say Durant has zero titles.

You could replace Kobe with CP3 or KD over Kobe's career, and those guys win more titles than Kobe did.

not even addressing the reality here (fit and team builds for Kobe vs guys at different positions), CP can't stay healthy enough to win 5 titles in a career.

[SkyBill40]

Simply? No.

As titles are often seen as the metric by which players are ultimately judged (even though that's a team thing), Durant has some and Paul has none.

[canada_dry]

No.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Ssj16]

You could replace Kobe with CP3 or KD over Kobe's career, and those guys win more titles than Kobe did.

Lmao.

[DoItALL9]

People heavily criticized Durant for choosing GSW but this thread is thoroughly justifying the decision

[bstein14]

I'm someone who doesn't put KD knocking on the door of top 10 all-time.

Clear Top 10
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. KAJ
4. Duncan
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Russell
8. Wilt
9. Kobe
10. Shaq
------
Steph
Hakeem
Jokic
Oscar


For me KD is more in the range of Dirk, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, KG, David Robinson, Giannis all those guys are in the 15 -22 range.... the next tier down you get guys like Pippen, Isiah Thomas, Wade, CP3 in the late 20s.

[Lost92Bricks]

All PGs make everyone better, that means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Nah he made bum teams appear as contenders that's different level ****.

[NZB2323]

Pau not being top 75 is an absolutely wild take.

I mean, there’s like 8 guys on the top 75 list that I would put Pau ahead of, but Pau didn’t make the list, he’s 6-20 in playoff games without Kobe, and if I was making a top 75 list today I would have Dwight, Tmac, Jokic, Luka, Butler, Brown, Tatum, and Embiid ahead of him. And there’s an argument for guys like Draymond Green, Ginobili, and Devin Booker over Pau.

And if we include ABA accomplishments then I’d have Artis Gilmore ranked ahead of him as well.

I like Gasol, and he was good in the 2010 playoffs, but Odom wasn’t. 10, 9, and 2, 51.4 TS%, 15.4 PER. Odom and Bynum aren’t close to being top 75 guys.

In any case, the 2010 Lakers weren’t an incredibly stacked team. They weren’t the 2017 Warriors, 2012 Heat, 2008 Celtics, 2001 Lakers, 1996 Bulls, 1986 Celtics, 1983 76ers, or 1972 Lakers. Winning a championship is hard. More stacked teams than the 2010 Lakers have failed, like the 1969 Lakers, 1984 Lakers, 1997 Rockets, 2004 Lakers, 2011 Heat, ect.

The Lakers were destroyed the next year in the playoffs in the 2nd round.

And if you’re going to write off Kobe’s championships because he was on good teams I guess we can do the same for Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, and Wilt.

It's about context. Magic and Bird are good examples; yes, they had stacked teams, but the teams they were beating were just as stacked if not moreso. Not all those teams were stacked either. We can see the floor raise from Bird in 1980 for eg, or from Magic in the late 80s. We can see that from certain KD and CP3 seasons too (e.g. KD in 2014 when Westbrook was hurt, or on the Nets/Suns during various various support cast ailments, and CP3 has a tonne of examples). Kobe is 135-137 from 00-07 in games Shaq missed, which was about the only time he didn't have a great team around him.

It's true that the 2010 Lakers weren't as stacked as say the 2017 Warriors, bit that's irrelevant because you judge how stacked a team is in the context it played. In 2009 or 2010 the Lakers had the best support cast in the league. Similarly nobody is citing 2017 as one of the years that proves KD can carry a mediocre support cast. Kobe was on the title favourites at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11, and 13). We could quibble about a few of those, but arguably they should have been favourites in 99 too in hindsight. The Lakers had more talent than the Spurs.

I don’t know if it’s true that Magic and Bird were beating stacked teams every year. In 86 the Celtics beat the Bulls, Hawks, Bucks, and Rockets. In 80 the Lakers beat the Suns, SuperSonics, and 76ers without Moses. In 82 the Lakers beat the Suns, Spurs, and 76ers without Moses.

The Lakers were 35-20 without Pau Gasol in 2008.

Are you doing title odds at the beginning of the season or start of the playoffs? If it’s start of the season, I have a hard time believing the Lakers were title favorites in 2008. If it’s the start of the playoffs, I have a hard time believing the Lakers were title favorites in 2013. I also don’t know how you can say the Lakers should have been title favorites in hindsight for 99, when the Spurs went 15-2 in the playoffs and Kobe was 20.

The Lakers are a lot more of a popular team than the Spurs. If the Lakers get more public money to make them a slight title favorite over the Spurs, are they really an overwhelming favorite? How many years were Wilt, Magic, Shaq, and LeBron favorites?

[NZB2323]

You could replace Kobe with CP3 or KD over Kobe's career, and those guys win more titles than Kobe did.

How can CP3 help teams win titles when he gets injured in the 2nd round?

[One_and_Done]

You could replace Kobe with CP3 or KD over Kobe's career, and those guys win more titles than Kobe did.

How can CP3 help teams win titles when he gets injured in the 2nd round?

He doesn't get injured every time in the 2nd round. This is being considerably exaggerated.

[dk1115]

I honestly don't think so. But I will say that if there were no Steph Curry, CP3 would be the best point guard of his generation.

I honestly think Chris Paul ends up in the 40's in terms of GOAT lists, but Durant probably ends up in the late teens to early 30's.

30's and 40's? Are you from the future doing these lists?

When I was making this post, I was kind of using Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen as reference points. I have Charles Barkley in the early 20's, and Scottie Pippen in the early 30's. Then I just thought Kevin Durant was likely slightly ahead of Barkley and I thought Paul would be behind Scottie

I'm assuming Durant doesn't do anything more significant in the next 4 years, and Paul is pretty much done already.

[One_and_Done]

I mean, there’s like 8 guys on the top 75 list that I would put Pau ahead of, but Pau didn’t make the list, he’s 6-20 in playoff games without Kobe, and if I was making a top 75 list today I would have Dwight, Tmac, Jokic, Luka, Butler, Brown, Tatum, and Embiid ahead of him. And there’s an argument for guys like Draymond Green, Ginobili, and Devin Booker over Pau.

And if we include ABA accomplishments then I’d have Artis Gilmore ranked ahead of him as well.

I like Gasol, and he was good in the 2010 playoffs, but Odom wasn’t. 10, 9, and 2, 51.4 TS%, 15.4 PER. Odom and Bynum aren’t close to being top 75 guys.

In any case, the 2010 Lakers weren’t an incredibly stacked team. They weren’t the 2017 Warriors, 2012 Heat, 2008 Celtics, 2001 Lakers, 1996 Bulls, 1986 Celtics, 1983 76ers, or 1972 Lakers. Winning a championship is hard. More stacked teams than the 2010 Lakers have failed, like the 1969 Lakers, 1984 Lakers, 1997 Rockets, 2004 Lakers, 2011 Heat, ect.

The Lakers were destroyed the next year in the playoffs in the 2nd round.

And if you’re going to write off Kobe’s championships because he was on good teams I guess we can do the same for Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, and Wilt.

It's about context. Magic and Bird are good examples; yes, they had stacked teams, but the teams they were beating were just as stacked if not moreso. Not all those teams were stacked either. We can see the floor raise from Bird in 1980 for eg, or from Magic in the late 80s. We can see that from certain KD and CP3 seasons too (e.g. KD in 2014 when Westbrook was hurt, or on the Nets/Suns during various various support cast ailments, and CP3 has a tonne of examples). Kobe is 135-137 from 00-07 in games Shaq missed, which was about the only time he didn't have a great team around him.

It's true that the 2010 Lakers weren't as stacked as say the 2017 Warriors, bit that's irrelevant because you judge how stacked a team is in the context it played. In 2009 or 2010 the Lakers had the best support cast in the league. Similarly nobody is citing 2017 as one of the years that proves KD can carry a mediocre support cast. Kobe was on the title favourites at least 10 times (00-04, 08-11, and 13). We could quibble about a few of those, but arguably they should have been favourites in 99 too in hindsight. The Lakers had more talent than the Spurs.

I don’t know if it’s true that Magic and Bird were beating stacked teams every year. In 86 the Celtics beat the Bulls, Hawks, Bucks, and Rockets. In 80 the Lakers beat the Suns, SuperSonics, and 76ers without Moses. In 82 the Lakers beat the Suns, Spurs, and 76ers without Moses.

The Lakers were 35-20 without Pau Gasol in 2008.

Are you doing title odds at the beginning of the season or start of the playoffs? If it’s start of the season, I have a hard time believing the Lakers were title favorites in 2008. If it’s the start of the playoffs, I have a hard time believing the Lakers were title favorites in 2013. I also don’t know how you can say the Lakers should have been title favorites in hindsight for 99, when the Spurs went 15-2 in the playoffs and Kobe was 20.

The Lakers are a lot more of a popular team than the Spurs. If the Lakers get more public money to make them a slight title favorite over the Spurs, are they really an overwhelming favorite? How many years were Wilt, Magic, Shaq, and LeBron favorites?

1) Bynum was playing like an up and coming all-star big in 08, then the moment he got hurt Pau replaced him. The Lakers record pre-Pau would have been good for 6th in the West that year if they kept up that pace all season, and then nobody even thinks about giving Kobe MVP.
2) You lost me in describing some of those 80s teams as not stacked. The 80s Bucks were incredibly stacked for eg. The 86 Rockets were good enough to beat the 86 Lakers.
3) D.Rob was pretty pedestrian in 99, I did a whole thread on the 99 Spurs support cast being overrated, and the Lakers had plenty of talent not just Kobe. Duncan deserves credit for taking the Spurs to the title anyway, but I have a hard time crediting much of it to his support cast.

[SlimShady83]

Edit: LOL

[SlimShady83]

You could replace Kobe with CP3 or KD over Kobe's career, and those guys win more titles than Kobe did.

RIGHT! WE all know you're a Kobe fan, no need In a thread like this lmao.

[iggymcfrack]

I'd argue it's the reverse. Kobe is the casual fans pick, as you'd expect because he's more famous and marketed. CP3 is the more informed choice.

5 titles over 0. And I'm quite the opposite of a casual fan. Not even close. CP3 is great, I don't just look at trophies, but I'd never put him ahead of Kobe. Most people wouldn't. Calling yourself the one who makes the "informed choice" makes it sound like it's not even an opinion, just you know more, which is hilarious.

One and Done is a Kobe fanatic but in the wrong way, you have to understand that commentary related to Kobe is going to be as far from objective as one can get lol

Curious to hear a couple of these arguments since there are plenty to choose from.


I’m one of KDs biggest critics, but really I can’t think of any reason why CP3 could be ahead of KD.

Kd has one mvp, cp3 none, neither have a championship so you have to look at their impact when judging them. Cp3 gas a major edge as a leader, KD obviously a better individual performer. I think cp3 is better as a team player. Sure neither ultimately ever got it done at the highest level, but cp3 has anchored multiple top teams. He elevates his teammates better than kd.

I know he jumped on GS and all, but are we just erasing KD's Warriors championships?

He gets some credit for being the 3rd most important player on 2 championship teams, but I’d give CP3 a lot more credit for being the 3rd most impactful player of the play-by-play era by the best impact metrics.

[dhsilv2]

I honestly don't think so. But I will say that if there were no Steph Curry, CP3 would be the best point guard of his generation.

I honestly think Chris Paul ends up in the 40's in terms of GOAT lists, but Durant probably ends up in the late teens to early 30's.

30's and 40's? Are you from the future doing these lists?

When I was making this post, I was kind of using Charles Barkley and Scottie Pippen as reference points. I have Charles Barkley in the early 20's, and Scottie Pippen in the early 30's. Then I just thought Kevin Durant was likely slightly ahead of Barkley and I thought Paul would be behind Scottie

I'm assuming Durant doesn't do anything more significant in the next 4 years, and Paul is pretty much done already.

How do you rank players? As Chuck vs CP3 seems like a good comp in terms of where they'd rank all time. Pippen's only real claim to be over CP3 is team success but then Chuck doesn't really have anything special. Unless you wildly think Chuck winning an MVP vs Paul finishing 2nd leap frogs him over a dozen plus players. We obviously could just rank players on wildly different criteria. I rank based on how good I think said player is...and things like team success is used to support or reject my opinions, as are stats.

But Chuck > Pippen > CP3 just doesn't make a lot of sense. Especially when you have a gap between Chuck and Pippen.

Like where would a Kidd, Walt Frazier, and say Steve Nash fall into this grouping? And then to avoid all guards, Ewing?