ConSarnit wrote:scrabbarista wrote:ConSarnit wrote:
Overall, yes. But not as far as rim dfga are concerned, which is what the original post was discussing.
Also, I haven't really seen anyone gloss over counter examples. The vast majority acknowledge the importance of perimeter defense (and the great season someone like Daniels is having) but the truth is great rim protection will always be more valuable than great wing defense. I'd go as far as saying that an "A" level rim protector is always more valuable than an "A+" perimeter defender, at least in terms of creating the foundation of a good defense. I'd wager that if there was a "build your best defense" draft the top 10 picks would all be Centers.
My mistake. I guess I have to take your word, because I don't know where to find the statistic you're citing. I do, however, see Thompson at 32nd in blocks per game. He alters a lot of shots.
The bolded is an example of what I was talking about, as shown by my three counter examples. The great Chicago Bulls teams of the 90's also come to mind... Daniels in that NYK game was at least as effective as the best rim protection in the leage might have been. Probably moreso, as Brunson doesn't even need to get to the rim to drop 50 and torch an opponent with his passing to boot.
PS I agree that generally rim protection is critical and almost might be termed a defensive panacea.
I just think some - you, apparently - go too far in assuming it is always superior to other forms of defense. Think of the Mavericks in last year's Finals. Boston wasn't bothered by their stout interior defense. I believe the counterexamples to this axiom are abundant, but because we know it to be
usually true, we ignore the many times that it doesn't apply.
That's not my argument. I'm talking about building a sustainable defense over an entire season. This is the DPOY of the year thread, not defensive player of one IST game thread. Over the course of a year an elite defensive big is going to provide more value than an elite defensive wing. Both have value. DPOY only goes to one person. You can build a great defense around excellent wings but you're going to need a bunch of them (like the 90's Bulls). I fully understand you can build great defenses in many ways but the most impactful defense is always going to come from an elite defensive C. That is just the nature of someone being able to shut down an area (a Center) vs shutting down an individual (a wing).
NOTE: The following response is me thinking through this question out loud.
Ok, that wasn't your argument. And I don't dispute that bigs are overwhelmingly more valuable than non-bigs defensively - on average. I just think it is overstated, especially in regards to rim protection specifically. And I think elite perimeter defenders are underrated, especially when they are also useful near the rim. If we think in theoretical terms, the space around the rim is probably like 3% of the total space to be defended in the halfcourt. It is the most important space, but I think its importance is generally overstated. There are also sometimes questions of context to consider: the same player asked to play one scheme/assignment might have a completely different level of impact in another scheme - both bigs and wings.
If we look at this season's top twenty in defensive rating, here's the positional breakdown:
C - 8
PF - 2
SF - 3
SG - 4
PG - 3
Centers are the most prominent, and I would even say this list understates their importance, even if we include the PF's. But even if the league's most impactful defensive players are 75% bigs (not what one would gather from this list), there's still a lot of conceptual wiggle room there, especially if we were to separate the idea of rim protection from the "big" positions.
For my own curiosity, I'll go through the 30 teams now and see what position is played by the player with each team's best defensive rating. I'll only include the top seven in minutes played for each team.
C - 20
PF - 6
SF -
SG - 1
PG - 3
Two things to note: many of the PF's are players who primarily defend the perimeter (Tatum, George, Eason), and many of the centers here are players who are considered poor rim protectors (Towns, Vucevic, Jokic, Valanciunas, Nurkic, Sabonis).
Having looked through this, I am forced to come to the conclusion that you are correct: a great defensive big (an A) is likely more impactful than a great defensive wing (an A+). The same is probably true, perhaps even more true, about poor defenders.
This is relevant to the DPoY conversation.
That said, I still insist (unrelated to the question of DPoY) that the importance of perimeter defense is generally underrated by the NBA intelligentsia, many of whom simply brush it off as practically irrelevant compared to rim protection. We regularly see great defenses without rim protecting centers. Recently we've seen HOU, OKC, and BOS protect the entire court (rim included) even without a traditional rim-protecting big. But I will concede that these examples (and the 90's Bulls, et al.) were all collectives.
TL;DR I'm convinced of the general importance of centers to great defense (particularly, as relates to the DPoY conversation), but I'll continue to think through this issue in search of unconventional perspectives.
All human life on the earth is like grass, and all human glory is like a flower in a field. The grass dries up and its flower falls off, but the Lord’s word endures forever.
