Houston are LEGIT!!!

[jasonxxx102]

lord have mercy lol

Classic response. AKA nothing to say to the facts

I can tell by your statements you are just trying to troll, so good luck with that.

Very convenient when you cannot address facts that you just claim im trolling.

Classic deflection tactic

[jasonxxx102]

Whats the off rtg of houston with alpo, jabari amen and jalen lineup? We have small sample of jabari amen and jalen during last seasons houston march streak( makes the data dubious if they dont add sengun on that equation)..
Whats the availability of bogdan bogdanovic from hawks in a trade perspective? Its like a preview of devin booker in rockets if they will make the swing in the offseason..

This year, small sample (293 possessions), the offensive rating is 114.7 so pretty average. The defense is in the bottom 3rd at 115.8.

[Optms]

Bill Simmons said on his pod today he may not trade Amen for anyone in the league...the hype is officially on.

I’d say his value is top 5-7 given his upside, age, versatile skillset and defensive mindset. But he’s crazy to say anyone in the league Luka/Jokic/SGA have proven they are #1’s. They are 26 for the two guards and 29 years old for Jokic. Jokic likely has 6-7 years at least at this MVP tier, as do the other two. Wemby has unfathomable upside. I don’t think any GM takes Amen over these guys.

Only ones that I would take are Shai, Luka and Wemby. Jokic too old. MVP caliber player in his mid 30s? Yeah, I'm not buying that. Not enough for Amen.

[ThatBoyNick]

Someone who brings what Fred does on defense and offense management while also being an above average scoring guard is basically prime Chris Paul, which is far cry from just a “starter level talent”

Not really, no. Paul was an elite offensive weapon in a variety of ways.

No, I'm just well accustomed to his limitations.

Their scoring rates are actually pretty similar. In the macro CP is better at making shots with a roughly 5% higher TS (comping their primes).

CP in the micro, was mainly a much better scorer in the paint, which is Freds core limitation, which does entirely change the dynamics as an offensive threat.

Fred is a good 3PT and mid-range shooter. His mid range jumper in particular wasn't even utilized until 2021 and after, if you look at his shot chart his last 3 seasons of 21-22 through 23-34 season he's pretty good, not as elite as CP, but good.


Looking at the league and trying to find players better than Fred today who are NOT downgrades on defense, spacing or offensive management is not easy. I can't think of more than 10 players. Name 30 guys who fit that description and push Fred to the 6th man role in Houston. Again, you may be comparing his situation in Toronto to Houston which doesn't work.

Maybe for certain teams, particularly ones with good rim protection, having a weaker defensive guard for better offensive production would be preferred. Houstons success is built on its defense, and we don't have any rim protection. Fred being an absolute wall as a point of attack defender, with great hands, and good enough lateral quickness, to go with his spacing, low turnover passing /high IQ offensive management is invaluable.

I think theres a real chance that if you were to replace him with a player like Lillard, or Trae, who in a vacuum one would consider better overall players because of their scoring, that we would end up being a worse team for it.

Our offense is mediocre, absolutely, our defense is not, and we're currently the 3rd best team in the league for it. If we we were a worse team I think you'd have a better point. Infusing offense for defense isn't a shoe-in for success here, and again finding equal defender to Fred who can play the PG role is very difficult.

[tsherkin]

Their scoring rates are actually pretty similar. In the macro CP is better at making shots with a roughly 5% higher TS (comping their primes).

CP in the micro, was mainly a much better scorer in the paint, which is Freds core limitation, which does entirely change the dynamics as an offensive threat.

Fred is a good 3PT and mid-range shooter. His mid range jumper in particular wasn't even utilized until 2021 and after, if you look at his shot chart his last 3 seasons of 21-22 through 23-34 season he's pretty good, not as elite as CP, but good.

This is not a viable comparison. Especially this season. Unless you mean you're directly comparing to Old Chris Paul as he pushes towards his 20th season. On balance of his career, Fred is quite bad from 3 to 16 feet, hasn't been good at getting to the rim in years, is WELL below average when he does get there and hasn't shown a consistent middie. Like, he was good on it with the Rockets last year, but very much not this year. And the long two has been solid. Nothing special, but solid.

There's an ocean of difference between him and Chris Paul, which is why in his prime, he was a 107-112 TS+ guy and Fred has been at 100 once and never above. He's perpetually below league-average efficiency for a reason, and that's because he has huge trouble getting his shot off or getting to efficient shots and doesn't really have an elite scoring trait. He's a good perimeter shooter most years (not this year) and he hits his FTs when he gets there (which isn't often), but that means only so much.

I'm being picky over this specific comparison. That gap is massive. It isn't close. Fred isn't a good scorer. Never has been. Paul was an excellent scorer until he got old, even after the injuries.

I think theres a real chance that if you were to replace him with a player like Lillard, or Trae, who in a vacuum one would consider better overall players because of their scoring, that we would end up being a worse team for it.

No, Dame would be a poor choice. You'd trade off so much defense for his O and he's old. Trae is a dramatically superior playmaker but while he shoots more and is better at drawing fouls, he has similar issues as you get closer to the paint and struggles with efficiency as well. He isn't best-positioned as a volume scorer at all. If he could fill a role like Fred's, it might work, but he's not a good defender.

Our offense is mediocre, absolutely, our defense is not, and we're currently the 3rd best team in the league for it. If we we were a worse team I think you'd have a better point. Infusing offense for defense isn't a shoe-in for success here, and again finding equal defender to Fred who can play the PG role is very difficult.

The D is impressive from Houston, no doubt.

[web123888]

I’m generally wary of teams that have never proven anything in the past regardless of regular season standings. However we are in an unusual for NBA high parity era where random teams can make the conference finals so it’s probably plausible even if I wouldn’t bet on it.

[ThatBoyNick]

This is not a viable comparison. Especially this season. Unless you mean you're directly comparing to Old Chris Paul as he pushes towards his 20th season. On balance of his career, Fred is quite bad from 3 to 16 feet, hasn't been good at getting to the rim in years, is WELL below average when he does get there and hasn't shown a consistent middie. Like, he was good on it with the Rockets last year, but very much not this year. And the long two has been solid. Nothing special, but solid.

There's an ocean of difference between him and Chris Paul, which is why in his prime, he was a 107-112 TS+ guy and Fred has been at 100 once and never above. He's perpetually below league-average efficiency for a reason, and that's because he has huge trouble getting his shot off or getting to efficient shots and doesn't really have an elite scoring trait. He's a good perimeter shooter most years (not this year) and he hits his FTs when he gets there (which isn't often), but that means only so much.

I'm being picky over this specific comparison. That gap is massive. It isn't close. Fred isn't a good scorer. Never has been. Paul was an excellent scorer until he got old, even after the injuries.

The bring it back to the original point, I'm saying Fred as a better more efficient scorer is basically CP. In that is the whole sale acknowledgement that CP is the superiors scorer. I'm not arguing they are close or equal scorers.

If you lump the paint in with the 16 ft FT line shot then yess Fred is poor, but if you separate it Fred's jumper at the FT line is good. I was particular to say "much better scorer in the paint" and not just at the rim. CP has the floaters and short jumpers that Fred doesn't.

I love CP, he's an amazing offensive player, but he was never an absolute elite scorer. He was about a 19 ppg player on 58% TS on avg in his prime. In a modern league with more 3PT attempts and spacing he'd probably have been a good bit better though.

[tsherkin]

The bring it back to the original point, I'm saying Fred as a better more efficient scorer is basically CP. In that is the whole sale acknowledgement that CP is the superiors scorer. I'm not arguing they are close or equal scorers.

That's not really a viable comparison, though. Because the gap is so large. He could be a league-average-efficiency guy and be a "better more efficient scorer" than FVV. It's an argumentum ad absurdem.

If you lump the paint in with the 16 ft FT line shot then yess Fred is poor, but if you separate it Fred's jumper at the FT line is good. I was particular to say "much better scorer in the paint" and not just at the rim. CP has the floaters and short jumpers that Fred doesn't.

I mean, he blows donkeys from 10-16 feet most seasons other than last year, which is why I said what I said.

I love CP, he's an amazing offensive player, but he was never an absolute elite scorer. He was about a 19 ppg player on 58% TS on avg in his prime. In a modern league with more 3PT attempts and spacing he'd probably have been a good bit better though.

CP was always elite. He just couldn't sustain ATG volume. He peaked as a 23 ppg player, but he was also a 10-11 apg player, which did limit his shooting volume at times. And then the injuries started to take his quickness. He's a good example of raw volume not actually being an end in and of itself, though. His offensive impact was humongous and he could elevate his volume in single games.

[ThatBoyNick]

That's not really a viable comparison, though. Because the gap is so large. He could be a league-average-efficiency guy and be a "better more efficient scorer" than FVV. It's an argumentum ad absurdem.

League average efficiency is around 58%, prime CP hovered around 58-59% on avg, Fred hovers around 54-55%. I stated at the top of this it's a roughly 4-5% difference TS, not really sure what else I can say that wouldn't be repetitive about most of this.

Good discussion though love talking hoop.

[RingoKid]

I love the mystery of Jalen Green...

You never know what sort of game he's gonna have but he's such great fun to watch.

The kid gives it heaps every game. All the Houston kids do and the vets do a great job of shepherding them.

Udoka empowers them all and it helps that he's a scary dude no one wants to piss off.

[HardenGoat]

They have some really significant positives that should push them to at least round 2 this year. The main one is Udoka. He has done an incredible job harnessing young talent and getting them to buy in. He is maximizing the talent available on an individual basis. Finding where they can succeed for the good of the team and win games. That’s not easy with such a deep young talented team vying for playing time. It could have easily gone off the tracks internally. The other big positive is this seems to be a gelling team where the sum is greater than the parts. It shows on the defensive end and rebounding. They are having a lot of fun and doing all the little things that make a difference. That said, the playoffs is going to be a new experience. They lack a bonafide 4th quarter closer. Right now the guy most promising is looking like Amen. But he needs to get his handle and shooting up to snuff to assume that responsibility. My guess is they will eventually trade Green to get that star and pair him with the core of Sengun and Amen. I think Sengun will become a vital piece once the shooting improves between both him and Amen. He has Jokic qualities but needs another year or two with playoff experience to bolster his reading of the game. And of course shot efficiency. They could be a true contender with the right moves in another year is my opinion. They are the most entertaining team to watch so far this year. Brooks being the villain and setting the tone defensively makes me laugh. You know Udoka loves that guy. Other teams must hate him.

[Harry Palmer]

Before last night Houston had 14 wins against top 10 point differential teams, second most in the league had 10. The top 10 got jumbled last night so I think they’re down to 13 despite winning another, but 10 remains the next best. They have easily played the best basketball in the league against the best teams in the league this season.

[Sane]

Whats the off rtg of houston with alpo, jabari amen and jalen lineup? We have small sample of jabari amen and jalen during last seasons houston march streak( makes the data dubious if they dont add sengun on that equation)..
Whats the availability of bogdan bogdanovic from hawks in a trade perspective? Its like a preview of devin booker in rockets if they will make the swing in the offseason..

This year, small sample (293 possessions), the offensive rating is 114.7 so pretty average. The defense is in the bottom 3rd at 115.8.

Just to be clear to everyone: we're the #3 or #4 best defense in the NBA and higher than that for most of the season

We're a top 10 offense in the NBA

We're not worst 3 or average at anything.

[cgf]

Whats the off rtg of houston with alpo, jabari amen and jalen lineup? We have small sample of jabari amen and jalen during last seasons houston march streak( makes the data dubious if they dont add sengun on that equation)..
Whats the availability of bogdan bogdanovic from hawks in a trade perspective? Its like a preview of devin booker in rockets if they will make the swing in the offseason..

This year, small sample (293 possessions), the offensive rating is 114.7 so pretty average. The defense is in the bottom 3rd at 115.8.

Just to be clear to everyone: we're the #3 or #4 best defense in the NBA and higher than that for most of the season

We're a top 10 offense in the NBA

We're not worst 3 or average at anything.

Check the post being quoted. Those #s are for Sengun-Jabari-Amen-Jalen lineups, not your season totals. I haven't checked the #s myself but that poster is saying that in 293 possessions with those 4 on the court your defense has been at a bottom 3 level. Not that you have a bottom 3 defense in general.

[cgf]

That's not really a viable comparison, though. Because the gap is so large. He could be a league-average-efficiency guy and be a "better more efficient scorer" than FVV. It's an argumentum ad absurdem.

League average efficiency is around 58%, prime CP hovered around 58-59% on avg, Fred hovers around 54-55%. I stated at the top of this it's a roughly 4-5% difference TS, not really sure what else I can say that wouldn't be repetitive about most of this.

Good discussion though love talking hoop.

I don't understand what you two have been arguing about, a 4-5% TS difference is really significant, even if the less efficient player is doing it on higher volume...which isn't even the case with CP3 v FVV.

[robbie84]

Bill Simmons said on his pod today he may not trade Amen for anyone in the league...the hype is officially on.

I’d say his value is top 5-7 given his upside, age, versatile skillset and defensive mindset. But he’s crazy to say anyone in the league Luka/Jokic/SGA have proven they are #1’s. They are 26 for the two guards and 29 years old for Jokic. Jokic likely has 6-7 years at least at this MVP tier, as do the other two. Wemby has unfathomable upside. I don’t think any GM takes Amen over these guys.

Only ones that I would take are Shai, Luka and Wemby. Jokic too old. MVP caliber player in his mid 30s? Yeah, I'm not buying that. Not enough for Amen.

Bill Simmons is an idiot. One of the dumbest basketball 'analysts' on earth.

[jasonxxx102]

Whats the off rtg of houston with alpo, jabari amen and jalen lineup? We have small sample of jabari amen and jalen during last seasons houston march streak( makes the data dubious if they dont add sengun on that equation)..
Whats the availability of bogdan bogdanovic from hawks in a trade perspective? Its like a preview of devin booker in rockets if they will make the swing in the offseason..

This year, small sample (293 possessions), the offensive rating is 114.7 so pretty average. The defense is in the bottom 3rd at 115.8.

Just to be clear to everyone: we're the #3 or #4 best defense in the NBA and higher than that for most of the season

We're a top 10 offense in the NBA

We're not worst 3 or average at anything.

Is it that hard to read a quoted post? Or do you just spazz out on anything you think is negative towards the rockets?

Reading is fundamental

[tsherkin]

League average efficiency is around 58%, prime CP hovered around 58-59% on avg, Fred hovers around 54-55%. I stated at the top of this it's a roughly 4-5% difference TS, not really sure what else I can say that wouldn't be repetitive about most of this.

Yeah, but that ignores that league average is a moving target. Paul has been a 58.1% TS guy on his career, but TS was like 4% lower earlier in his career. He scaled up pretty well until he was injured and in his late 30s, nearly 20 years into his career. If he were 30 instead of 39, his raw efficiency would be better this year too. He was a 61% TS guy as recently as 2020, 59.9% the year after and then his decline really became noticeable. His ability to draw fouls really slipped away after that, and he's been bombing with huge 3PAr these past couple of years.

Anyway, that's a MASSIVE difference even if that's the only consideration you manage between the two over their efficiency. But even then, it doesn't really paint the picture of the yawning chasm between the two. And that's even before you get into actual playmaking.

[Sane]

This year, small sample (293 possessions), the offensive rating is 114.7 so pretty average. The defense is in the bottom 3rd at 115.8.

Just to be clear to everyone: we're the #3 or #4 best defense in the NBA and higher than that for most of the season

We're a top 10 offense in the NBA

We're not worst 3 or average at anything.

Is it that hard to read a quoted post? Or do you just spazz out on anything you think is negative towards the rockets?

Reading is fundamental

Why so insecure bro? I didn't deny anything in your post.

[RingoKid]

Grizz v Rockets today is a game that means something.

Moreso for Memphis as they're already 0 and 3 for the season vs Houston.

Morant needs to go ballistic or go home and beat up on 17 yr olds.

Houston ain't no joke.