Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[davidv2001]

I've always thought it's a major waste if you don't have a talented facilitator to set up your great big man, or at least a scoring wing to draw defensive attention away from them.

In their athletic primes, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Garnett were pretty much on their own in terms of leading the offense. And they had to anchor the defense.

Karl Malone having John Stockton and Shaq having Penny and Kobe had to be a huge advantage. Duncan getting Manu and TP was a big deal.

I'm a big McHale fan. But imagine if Hakeem had played with Larry Bird. He'd get the advantage of Bird's passing and the attention he draws as a scorer. DJ wasn't bad as a facilitator, either.

Hakeem played with great players (Sampson, Drexler, Barkley, Pippen), and he benefited from futuristic four-out spacing, which was further enhanced with the shortening of the three-point line. He had more space than Kareem, Dantley, McHale, and Barkley had to work with under Rudy T, for sure. He just wasn't as adept at working off-ball for advantageous position, and his shot selection wasn't as developed.

Hakeem played with Pippen and Drexler when they were at the tail end of their careers, and it was pairing up with Hakeem that got Drexler his long-coveted championship. Pippen also was terrible during his one season in Houston and essentially quit on the Rockets.

The Rockets entire offense during their two championship runs was “throw the ball to Hakeem in the post and let him score or kick it out to shooters.” He was the Rockets’ offense.

As for Sampson, he only played with Hakeem during Hakeem’s first three years, and 19 games of Hakeem’s fourth year. Olajuwon did not have an all-star caliber teammate of similar age during his prime. In that way, it’s very similar to Jokic’s supporting cast in Denver, except Jamal Murray would have been a better player than most anyone Dream played with. Murray would have been the Rockets second best player during the 1993-1994 championship season, and it’s debatable between him and Drexler in 1994-1995.

[Onlytimewilltel]

I've always thought it's a major waste if you don't have a talented facilitator to set up your great big man, or at least a scoring wing to draw defensive attention away from them.

In their athletic primes, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Garnett were pretty much on their own in terms of leading the offense. And they had to anchor the defense.

Karl Malone having John Stockton and Shaq having Penny and Kobe had to be a huge advantage. Duncan getting Manu and TP was a big deal.

I'm a big McHale fan. But imagine if Hakeem had played with Larry Bird. He'd get the advantage of Bird's passing and the attention he draws as a scorer. DJ wasn't bad as a facilitator, either.

Hakeem played with great players (Sampson, Drexler, Barkley, Pippen), and he benefited from futuristic four-out spacing, which was further enhanced with the shortening of the three-point line. He had more space than Kareem, Dantley, McHale, and Barkley had to work with under Rudy T, for sure. He just wasn't as adept at working off-ball for advantageous position, and his shot selection wasn't as developed.

Hakeem played with Pippen and Drexler when they were at the tail end of their careers, and it was pairing up with Hakeem that got Drexler his long-coveted championship. Pippen also was terrible during his one season in Houston and essentially quit on the Rockets.

The Rockets entire offense during their two championship runs was “throw the ball to Hakeem in the post and let him score or kick it out to shooters.” He was the Rockets’ offense.

As for Sampson, he only played with Hakeem during Hakeem’s first three years, and 19 games of Hakeem’s fourth year. Olajuwon did not have an all-star caliber teammate of similar age during his prime. In that way, it’s very similar to Jokic’s supporting cast in Denver, except Jamal Murray would have been a better player than most anyone Dream played with. Murray would have been the Rockets second best player during the 1993-1994 championship season, and it’s debatable between him and Drexler in 1994-1995.

You’re wasting your time trying to explain how playing one year with a washed up Scottie at the end of both of their careers is not the same as having Larry Bird throughout your prime.

Clearly this hobbit Froddo wasn’t around back then watching basketball in 80s and 90s otherwise he wouldn’t embarrass him self with asinine statements and comparisons

[FrodoBaggins]

Hakeem played with great players (Sampson, Drexler, Barkley, Pippen), and he benefited from futuristic four-out spacing, which was further enhanced with the shortening of the three-point line. He had more space than Kareem, Dantley, McHale, and Barkley had to work with under Rudy T, for sure. He just wasn't as adept at working off-ball for advantageous position, and his shot selection wasn't as developed.

Hakeem played with Pippen and Drexler when they were at the tail end of their careers, and it was pairing up with Hakeem that got Drexler his long-coveted championship. Pippen also was terrible during his one season in Houston and essentially quit on the Rockets.

The Rockets entire offense during their two championship runs was “throw the ball to Hakeem in the post and let him score or kick it out to shooters.” He was the Rockets’ offense.

As for Sampson, he only played with Hakeem during Hakeem’s first three years, and 19 games of Hakeem’s fourth year. Olajuwon did not have an all-star caliber teammate of similar age during his prime. In that way, it’s very similar to Jokic’s supporting cast in Denver, except Jamal Murray would have been a better player than most anyone Dream played with. Murray would have been the Rockets second best player during the 1993-1994 championship season, and it’s debatable between him and Drexler in 1994-1995.

You’re wasting your time trying to explain how playing one year with a washed up Scottie at the end of both of their careers is not the same as having Larry Bird throughout your prime.

Clearly this hobbit Froddo wasn’t around back then watching basketball in 80s and 90s otherwise he wouldn’t embarrass him self with asinine statements and comparisons

Please be respectful. I don't see how calling Hakeem merely one of the best post-up players as opposed to the undisputed best is an asinine statement. This seems to be a very emotional topic for many.

[Ritzo]

Yeah, Zach Randolph is better

[og15]

Same with Rudy Gobert.

I don't think anyone would ever confuse Rudy with being one of the greatest post-up players. Which was obviously the qualifier of the listed players. But you already knew that, because you're being willfully ignorant.

Don't be obtuse. You were going off percentages, which means you must rank Gobert and Dwight ahead of Hakeem by your criteria.

Come on, it's okay to disagree with OP, but these comments are pointless. The OP listed guys who all had at least 1 season with 25+ ppg and multiple years with 21-22+ ppg. I don't think it needs to be spelled out that it's obviously only including guys who were high option scorers and who did some shot creating.

I'm not sure what Rudy Gobert level and style of player has ever averaged 25+ ppg. It's just a waste of discussion space to add that when the criteria of high volume scorer was already made based on the examples.

[Bergmaniac]

So many posts in this thread prove its premise. Hakeem was obviously a great post-up player but acting like he was in a tier of his own, that it's a sacrilege to suggest he is not by far the best at it and that only people who never watched him play would dare to say he is not the best is plain ridiculous. The likes of Shaq, Kareem, Jokic, McHale, etc certainly have a case over him and it's not "hating" or "Ignorance" to say it. You may prefer Hakeem's game aesthetically, but that's a different thing altogether from being the best in terms of overall effectiveness. You don't get points for style in basketball.

[OdomFan]

So many posts in this thread prove its premise. Hakeem was obviously a great post-up player but acting like he was in a tier of his own, that it's a sacrilege to suggest he is not by far the best at it and that only people who never watched him play would dare to say he is not the best is plain ridiculous. The likes of Shaq, Kareem, Jokic, McHale, etc certainly have a case over him and it's not "hating" or "Ignorance" to say it. You may prefer Hakeem's game aesthetically, but that's a different thing altogether from being the best in terms of overall effectiveness. You don't get points for style in basketball.

What exactly is Shaqs case for having a better post up game than Hakeem? Shaq relied heavily on power moves. Banging the opponent out of the way and finishing with dunks. Which isnt a knock on him. Thats what worked for him, but when you compare that to Hakeems more versatile approach mixed with a better jump shot along with the dunks? I just don't see how what you said here is valid, or how any of this makes someones post moves overrated in general.

McHale, Kareem and others were good, but those guys don't match Hakeems post moves imo. To each their own.

[Tottery]

A little disingenuous. Hakeem loved to post up outside the block and take jumpshots/fadeaways. Some players on the list dunked more or finished closer to the basket. Also, as Hakeem got older, he shot further away.

None of those players had better footwork.

[tsherkin]

What exactly is Shaqs case for having a better post up game than Hakeem? Shaq relied heavily on power moves. Banging the opponent out of the way and finishing with dunks. Which isnt a knock on him. Thats what worked for him, but when you compare that to Hakeems more versatile approach mixed with a better jump shot along with the dunks? I just don't see how what you said here is valid, or how any of this makes someones post moves overrated in general.

So the answer to that question comes from whether you're evaluating how effective a player was or if you're evaluating them aesthetically. Simple isn't bad. Versatility has no inherent value unless it allows you to be more effective. And LOADS of people forget how much game Olajuwon had outside the post, which is why they can't reconcile the difference between Hakeem the Overall Scorer and Hakeem the Post Scorer.

McHale, Kareem and others were good, but those guys don't match Hakeems post moves imo. To each their own.

So, McHale very much didn't. He didn't have the dramatic "baseline drive into a spin with the back pivot" specifically, but he had the fadeaway turning into the lane, he had the drop steps, he had the up and under (in fact, he was perhaps the pre-eminent up-and-under merchant during his time in the league), a host of pump fakes and spins, etc. The only reasons people don't want to put him over Olajuwon are a) Olajuwon scored more overall (which should be irrelevant) in all but one season, and b) people want to burn him for playing with high-quality teammates without meaningful appreciation of what his post looks actually looked like in terms of defensive coverage.

[CptCrunch]

Didn't read the whole thread but the first page did read.

He was efficient for his era, and was at apex of his craft taking post shots, and longer mid range shots.

Compared to the modern offense, he ain't efficient, but we have to era adjust everything.

[MAMBAEMD]

Hakeem’s footwork in the post was the best I’ve ever seen. It made him very effective in the post.

Only player that came close with footwork was Kobe

Both had soccer backgrounds

[tsherkin]

Hakeem’s footwork in the post was the best I’ve ever seen. It made him very effective in the post.

Only player that came close with footwork was Kobe

Both had soccer backgrounds

Nah. Al Jefferson had pretty similar footwork. Didn't have the same level of athleticism, but his appreciation of the counter, and the counter off the counter, was quite similar.

[Optms]

So many posts in this thread prove its premise. Hakeem was obviously a great post-up player but acting like he was in a tier of his own, that it's a sacrilege to suggest he is not by far the best at it and that only people who never watched him play would dare to say he is not the best is plain ridiculous. The likes of Shaq, Kareem, Jokic, McHale, etc certainly have a case over him and it's not "hating" or "Ignorance" to say it. You may prefer Hakeem's game aesthetically, but that's a different thing altogether from being the best in terms of overall effectiveness. You don't get points for style in basketball.

What exactly is Shaqs case for having a better post up game than Hakeem? Shaq relied heavily on power moves. Banging the opponent out of the way and finishing with dunks. Which isnt a knock on him. Thats what worked for him, but when you compare that to Hakeems more versatile approach mixed with a better jump shot along with the dunks? I just don't see how what you said here is valid, or how any of this makes someones post moves overrated in general.

McHale, Kareem and others were good, but those guys don't match Hakeems post moves imo. To each their own.

None of those guys match Hakeems post dominance.

Shaq is the closest sure. What were McHales numbers against the Kareems, Moses of the world? We know all know what Hakeem did against the greatest era of big men. Shaq, Robinson, Mutombo, Ewing, Mourning, Rodman - Hakeem ran through all of them while posting elite numbers.

Don't even mention Jokic either. Its a joke to even include him here. The man was shut down by a 6'4 player Half his weight. Tim Duncan was much better and went up against infinitely better competition. Imagine putting Caruso on Timmy D and expecting Timmy to get "gassed". The man went up against prime Shaq and still dominated. Trolling at its finest.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Hakeem’s footwork in the post was the best I’ve ever seen. It made him very effective in the post.

Only player that came close with footwork was Kobe

Both had soccer backgrounds

Nah. Al Jefferson had pretty similar footwork. Didn't have the same level of athleticism, but his appreciation of the counter, and the counter off the counter, was quite similar.

[tsherkin]

Hakeem’s footwork in the post was the best I’ve ever seen. It made him very effective in the post.

Only player that came close with footwork was Kobe

Both had soccer backgrounds

Nah. Al Jefferson had pretty similar footwork. Didn't have the same level of athleticism, but his appreciation of the counter, and the counter off the counter, was quite similar.

I mean, you can laugh but it's true. Al Jefferson had the most advanced repertoire of post moves the league has seen SINCE Hakeem. The major reason he struggled is that he didn't have the same level of athleticism, so his spins weren't quite as effective and he wasn't as capable on the O-boards, and he couldn't take bigs off the bounce facing up. So his scoring efficiency was a lot lower.

But in terms of the actual footwork itself, yes, it was comparable. Hakeem wasn't some untouchable god of basketball. He was a MONSTER athlete with advanced footwork and more of a handle than most other guys his size at that point in league history, and a pretty good shot out to about 17 feet after his first few years. And that's the main difference in specifically post footwork between the two players.

[MAMBAEMD]

Jefferson’s post moves are actually a good call out.

He worked very hard to get better and better in the post.

He just had no where near the athleticism or talent of Hakeem or Kobe.

Pure footwork wise, I put both of them over good ol’ Al.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Nah. Al Jefferson had pretty similar footwork. Didn't have the same level of athleticism, but his appreciation of the counter, and the counter off the counter, was quite similar.

I mean, you can laugh but it's true. Al Jefferson had the most advanced repertoire of post moves the league has seen SINCE Hakeem. The major reason he struggled is that he didn't have the same level of athleticism, so his spins weren't quite as effective and he wasn't as capable on the O-boards, and he couldn't take bigs off the bounce facing up. So his scoring efficiency was a lot lower.

But in terms of the actual footwork itself, yes, it was comparable. Hakeem wasn't some untouchable god of basketball. He was a MONSTER athlete with advanced footwork and more of a handle than most other guys his size at that point in league history, and a pretty good shot out to about 17 feet after his first few years. And that's the main difference in specifically post footwork between the two players.

I’m not laughing at big Al. I was a fan, he definitely had really nice moves, but he was slow as molasses out there. So yea obviously athleticism plays a part here also, I thought that was obvious. If Shaq didn’t have his body/physical talent and athleticism he wouldn’t have the efficiency that you keep slobbering over.

[tsherkin]

I’m not laughing at big Al. I was a fan, he definitely had really nice moves, but he was slow as molasses out there. So yea obviously athleticism plays a part here also, I thought that was obvious. If Shaq didn’t have his body/physical talent and athleticism he wouldn’t have the efficiency that you keep slobbering over.

Yes, he was slow as an ice age, for sure. And no, you posted nothing but the emojis, so I wasn't clear on your intent.

And yes, absolutely, Shaq's efficacy would have been quite different if he wasn't humongous... but he also had good footwork and timing, good off-ball movement and he hustled on the O-boards.

There is no separating athleticism from player efficacy. Hakeem's moves wouldn't have worked nearly as well if he had been slower. He BUILT his game around his speed, but was also extremely strong and had fantastic coordination and balance. Athletic traits are major things for a reason.

The point is, there's no measure of "best" which Hakeem cleanly and clearly fits when we're discussing this stuff. He had a very pretty aesthetic to his post game, but he's not even top-3 in terms of post scoring effectiveness. And yes, part of that is due to physical tools others had which he did not, but he still had a strong base, excellent leaping, phenomenal quickness and great balance. He was all kinds of gifted athletically.

But for him, the major differentiator was more in how well he scored from outside of the post. He had a face-up game like D-Rob and Ewing, but more range than Robinson and more athleticism and skill than Ewing. He had a far better handle, for example, and that helped him transition into fadeaways and spins and so forth out of his face-up attack with much more reliability and effectiveness.

In any case, the Big Al remark was all about the footwork. If two guys have the same level of footwork and ability to get off a clean look and the only real difference is athleticism, then the one guy isn't a "better post player," he's a better ATHLETE, and a more EFFECTIVE post scorer for reasons which aren't his actual skills. This applies just as well to Shaq, who would have been much worse had he been 6'10 and 240 lbs, obviously, because he had no touch past 8 feet and couldn't hit a free throw to save his life much of the time, certainly.

[Cavsfansince84]

If you just look at the rs then maybe yes but the thing about Hakeem is how he could raise his game in the post season. That's what makes him the legend he is. 33.4ppg over the course of an entire title run in 95. Many other years where he also raised his volume and efficiency. That's why his post game is held in such high regard. He did all of that as an undersized center for his era.

[tsherkin]

If you just look at the rs then maybe yes but the thing about Hakeem is how he could raise his game in the post season. That's what makes him the legend he is. 33.4ppg over the course of an entire title run in 95.

Right here, though, stop. Because he didn't score 33 ppg in just the post. He had breadth to his scoring game which extended beyond the post, so the notion of his broader scoring average isn't material to this thread.

He did all of that as an undersized center for his era.

He wasn't at all undersized.