Giannis with the worst travel of all time

[eminence]

So I should be delaying my dribble (by putting all or parts of my hand under the ball to carry - I mean delay), which is totally different than pausing my dribble.

Guy pretty constantly carried in that video, but we as fans have decided we want to see funky crossovers and whatnot, so we don't pay any attention to the carry rule.

A hint - if like Giannis in this video from about the 3pt line in - you'd have to make the palming violation signal to actually dribble the basketball - you have begun your gather and no longer have a live dribble by any sane definition.

[Andri]

It could be legal by the rules, but once that players have finally crafted how to take advantage of the gather step, it feels wrong.

IMO NBA should tweak the rule to avoid this from happening. We have another examples of players taking advantage of a rule until the rule itself doesn't make sense as it was meant. Harden's rule for example.

It's about time

[Blame Rasho]

I am not impressed. There was no crab dribble.

[Edrees]

lol if you slow every play down you guys know how many travels and carries there are in games today lol

if you called every one players would stop doing it and then you wouldn't have to stop every play anymore.

[Cavsfansince84]

Guys have been getting away with fast break travels for at least 20 years. This one ain't new.

They started allowing an extra step(sometimes two) on breakaway dunks with no defender about 30-40 years ago. Even then though guys could actually still get called for it. What Giannis did was in a half court situation while going by 2 defenders.

[G35]

This is the root of the problem. The rule is very clear, and the dudes stuck in the 90s refuse to accept it. They continuously complain about phantom travels. They don't want to understand, they just want something to be upset about

First, this new gather rule was implemented in 2018. Fine. But it is a shotty rule that is giving players more advantages over defenders to do things that were not ever done before.

As people have been saying for a LONG time that young posters refuse to listen to that the modern NBA is creating rules to help the offense. But the rhetoric will be is that players are "more skilled" and "more talented". You cannot claim more talent when in the past you got 1.5 to 2 steps but now players can get six steps. That is not more talented.

Just wait until 2028 when the NBA comes up with a new rule called, "Travel as much as you want. Pick the ball up and run with it. We call it...RUBGY!".......

This is where I disagree, but not how you think, this is not a "modern" NBA thing, the NBA has done this since it's inception. What was the purpose of the shot clock? More offense. What was the reason for saying no zone and only man to man? More offense. What was the purpose of banning / limiting hand checking in 1970's? More offense? What was the purpose of all the re-hashing of hand checking? More offense. What was the purpose of illegal defense rules? More offense. What was the purpose of moving in the 3PT line? More offense (didn't necessarily accomplish that, but still). What was the purpose of 3 in the key after removing illegal defense? More offense.

The NBA didn't just start to regulate more offense in the modern day. The NBA has been adjusting over and over again since it's inception to promote scoring and "freedom" for the best players to show their skills, etc.

Yes, sports leagues know that offense brings in the casual fans because defense is boring. But when you start re-interpreting rules already in the rule book then you cannot compare eras, period.

This may not be a travel but it certainly is a carry and I have been saying that since Iverson and his crossover. I have always said AI was carrying the ball compared to Tim Hardaway's crossover who went between his legs. You cannot carry going through your legs but when you are putting your hand on the side or under the ball to gain an advantage on the defender that is changing how a player can advance the ball. You get people in the air when the defender sees you put your hand under the ball because it looks like you are "gathering" to either go up for a shot. But when you can Tom "tuck rule" Brady the ball and bring it back in and continue your dribble that is changing the fundamentals of dribbling.

When we had dribbling practices you were taught to not carry the ball, referee's would not let you carry the ball especially in high school or college games. But the NBA is more about entertainment and so the rules are getting more lax. So yes, they have been changing the rules to advantage the offense but it went back and forth. The 80's was more run and gun, the 90's and early 2000's was more defensive. Then we saw in 2005 with the Phoenix Suns and Steve Nash they changed the rules to give advantages to guards and perimeter play. In any other era, Steve Nash would not have been a back to back MVP.

Watch on YouTube

Watching Tim Hardaway use his crossover to throw big men off balance and freeze defenders, that takes far more skill with the dribble than I have seen. And yes, I'm including Kyrie. You see Hardaway doing his killer crossover and not needing to stop at the top of the key, wait for a pick so he can get on Rudy Gobert, and then go one on one. Hardaway and others like Isiah Thomas, could do it in the flow of the game, that took skill. You had to have creativity with the ball to get to the basket and finish. Hardaway kept the ball low to the ground and he could go left-right, or right-left and then be able to bring it back and reset and do it all over again. You cannot reset when you do the zero-step, gather, and take fifty-eleven steps.


@2:25 you see the Allen Iverson crossover and you can see the big difference. Iverson exaggerated how far he would go left, carrying the ball for a split second to freeze the defender. Modern players are using that carry to get past defenders, instead of being able to crossover defenders without having to carry. The whole Euro-step/zero-step, gather and rabbit hop fifteen times is just an evolution of that. Players using that to score and they do not want the ref's calling violations on their pet moves. The top players are influencing the rule books in order to score easier, when in the past the rules were put in place to slow down the best players. I'm sure you remember the rules to stop Wilt, Kareem, Barkley, and Shaq.

Watch on YouTube

[Curmudgeon]

What's the problem? It's just the officials upholding the integrity of the game, per the Commissioner's instructions.
I'm still waiting for some official to call carrying the ball. I haven't seen it called since 2020 or thereabouts.

[brackdan70]

Omg. Lol. 67

[prophet_of_rage]

Definition of the Gather
https://official.nba.com/new-language-in-nba-rule-book-regarding-traveling-violations/

The following definition of the gather will be added to the definitions section of the playing rules:

For a player who receives a pass or gains possession of a loose ball, the gather is defined as the point where the player gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body.
For a player who is in control of the ball while dribbling, the gather is defined as the point where a player does any one of the following:
-Puts two hands on the ball, or otherwise permits the ball to come to rest, while he is in control of it;
-Puts a hand under the ball and brings it to a pause; or
-Otherwise gains enough control of the ball to hold it, change hands, pass, shoot, or cradle it against his body.

In my opinion, he put his two hands on the ball, gather two steps. He didn't put his hand under the ball or brought it to a stop until the gather two steps. But (in my opinion) he absolutely had enough control to at least pass the ball. But honestly, this is a real problem for basketball fans. Can Giannis or Wemby take one dribble and let the ball spin in their hands while they run from one end to the other? The rules kind of allow it.

This is the thing. These guys hands are so big they have the ball under control. They freeze the dribble in their hand. The refs only call the control when they have two hands on the ball.

Sent from my SM-S938W using RealGM mobile app

[og15]

What's the problem? It's just the officials upholding the integrity of the game, per the Commissioner's instructions.
I'm still waiting for some official to call carrying the ball. I haven't seen it called since 2020 or thereabouts.

Need to watch more Jordan Poole

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUSSm9yZGFuIHBvb2xlIGNhcnJ5

It was 3 times in that game:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=QAFIAQ%3D%3D



End of game:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUSSm9yZGFuIHBvb2xlIGNhcnJ5

Of course Poole even for today is quite egregious with his

[og15]

First, this new gather rule was implemented in 2018. Fine. But it is a shotty rule that is giving players more advantages over defenders to do things that were not ever done before.

As people have been saying for a LONG time that young posters refuse to listen to that the modern NBA is creating rules to help the offense. But the rhetoric will be is that players are "more skilled" and "more talented". You cannot claim more talent when in the past you got 1.5 to 2 steps but now players can get six steps. That is not more talented.

Just wait until 2028 when the NBA comes up with a new rule called, "Travel as much as you want. Pick the ball up and run with it. We call it...RUBGY!".......

This is where I disagree, but not how you think, this is not a "modern" NBA thing, the NBA has done this since it's inception. What was the purpose of the shot clock? More offense. What was the reason for saying no zone and only man to man? More offense. What was the purpose of banning / limiting hand checking in 1970's? More offense? What was the purpose of all the re-hashing of hand checking? More offense. What was the purpose of illegal defense rules? More offense. What was the purpose of moving in the 3PT line? More offense (didn't necessarily accomplish that, but still). What was the purpose of 3 in the key after removing illegal defense? More offense.

The NBA didn't just start to regulate more offense in the modern day. The NBA has been adjusting over and over again since it's inception to promote scoring and "freedom" for the best players to show their skills, etc.

Yes, sports leagues know that offense brings in the casual fans because defense is boring. But when you start re-interpreting rules already in the rule book then you cannot compare eras, period.

This may not be a travel but it certainly is a carry and I have been saying that since Iverson and his crossover. I have always said AI was carrying the ball compared to Tim Hardaway's crossover who went between his legs. You cannot carry going through your legs but when you are putting your hand on the side or under the ball to gain an advantage on the defender that is changing how a player can advance the ball. You get people in the air when the defender sees you put your hand under the ball because it looks like you are "gathering" to either go up for a shot. But when you can Tom "tuck rule" Brady the ball and bring it back in and continue your dribble that is changing the fundamentals of dribbling.

When we had dribbling practices you were taught to not carry the ball, referee's would not let you carry the ball especially in high school or college games. But the NBA is more about entertainment and so the rules are getting more lax. So yes, they have been changing the rules to advantage the offense but it went back and forth. The 80's was more run and gun, the 90's and early 2000's was more defensive. Then we saw in 2005 with the Phoenix Suns and Steve Nash they changed the rules to give advantages to guards and perimeter play. In any other era, Steve Nash would not have been a back to back MVP.

Watch on YouTube

Watching Tim Hardaway use his crossover to throw big men off balance and freeze defenders, that takes far more skill with the dribble than I have seen. And yes, I'm including Kyrie. You see Hardaway doing his killer crossover and not needing to stop at the top of the key, wait for a pick so he can get on Rudy Gobert, and then go one on one. Hardaway and others like Isiah Thomas, could do it in the flow of the game, that took skill. You had to have creativity with the ball to get to the basket and finish. Hardaway kept the ball low to the ground and he could go left-right, or right-left and then be able to bring it back and reset and do it all over again. You cannot reset when you do the zero-step, gather, and take fifty-eleven steps.


@2:25 you see the Allen Iverson crossover and you can see the big difference. Iverson exaggerated how far he would go left, carrying the ball for a split second to freeze the defender. Modern players are using that carry to get past defenders, instead of being able to crossover defenders without having to carry. The whole Euro-step/zero-step, gather and rabbit hop fifteen times is just an evolution of that. Players using that to score and they do not want the ref's calling violations on their pet moves. The top players are influencing the rule books in order to score easier, when in the past the rules were put in place to slow down the best players. I'm sure you remember the rules to stop Wilt, Kareem, Barkley, and Shaq.

Watch on YouTube

Like Kerr said when Poole got his calls, it's a carry, but they've been letting it go since Iverson convinced the refs that it wasn't

Ones relating to guys like Wilt and Kareem were in the infancy of professional basketball, there was a lot of still figuring out the sport at that time, different reality.

The ones like 5 second back to the basket was to promote more scoring and pace because it was considered bad basketball to have a side cleared out and a guy just backing down for half the shot clock.

The NBA generally will put in offensive limiting rules of it is to stop something that is considered slow and brutish, that part is true, but it isn't really to stop scoring, it's because they want things to move faster.

[benson13]

Until he’s done gathering the ball, he’s still on step zero. So he could have used one more step. It’s a testament to his greatness that he didn’t heed it. Jordan couldn’t have pulled this move off without actually traveling. The defenses today are too good.

[FarBeyondDriven]

the funniest part of this is the blowhards online trying to defend this and call it "gathering" lmao. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourselves. This is why it's laughable that people claim players are more skilled and better athletes. There are certainly MORE great athletes but the elite athletes from today aren't any more athletic than elite athletes of yesteryear. And "more skilled" is made possible by the league allowing garbage like this Giannis travel, carries, moving screens, push offs and foul-baiting.

the confusion imho is because he puts his hand under the ball making it impossible for an additional legal dribble at 7 seconds thus begins his "gather". From that point he takes a quick gather step followed by three additional steps. It's a travel by the old rules AND the new rules.

[dhsilv2]

lol if you slow every play down you guys know how many travels and carries there are in games today lol

if you called every one players would stop doing it and then you wouldn't have to stop every play anymore.

But once you stopped....they'd be right back to it.

This is why the NBA clarified it in 2018. This "gather step" was already a thing...but it wasn't defined and some refs weren't consistent.

What's both good and bad is that there's a level of "skill" to milking any rule. And if you set a rule it's going to be gamed and frankly...that's what skill is. You set the rule and i find the way to get the most out of it. This is 100% someone maxing it out and...this has been what's getting taught for years. This is how kids are being taught to dribble. And it goes back to the 90's...the whole idea of maintaining control without putting your hand under or stopping it isn't new.

[dhsilv2]

the funniest part of this is the blowhards online trying to defend this and call it "gathering" lmao. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourselves. This is why it's laughable that people claim players are more skilled and better athletes. There are certainly MORE great athletes but the elite athletes from today aren't any more athletic than elite athletes of yesteryear. And "more skilled" is made possible by the league allowing garbage like this Giannis travel, carries, moving screens, push offs and foul-baiting.

the confusion imho is because he puts his hand under the ball making it impossible for an additional legal dribble at 7 seconds thus begins his "gather". From that point he takes a quick gather step followed by three additional steps. It's a travel by the old rules AND the new rules.

So this came up earlier and I'll ask you. What is "under"? I've done a bit of looking and under isn't defined in the rules clearly. I'd guess the refs have some addendum or clarification?

To my eyes, he's at all times above the center with the center of his palm which is how I've always considered it. But another poster pointed out his fingers and fair play, they're under! But then so is G35's Tim Hardaway clip. I'm honestly open here to learning what people think and if anyone has any NBA official clarity?

Now the whole taking 2 18 foot steps between a dribble Giannis can do is a whole other thing lol.

[Lalouie]

Read on Twitter

I don't even think it's that hyperbolic.

well no one TRAVELS by walking across a state. it's just a really long hike

[xinxin]

that's on the same level as the Angel Reese quadruple dribble fast break lay up... ha ha

[lambchop]

the funniest part of this is the blowhards online trying to defend this and call it "gathering" lmao. Just stop. You're embarrassing yourselves. This is why it's laughable that people claim players are more skilled and better athletes. There are certainly MORE great athletes but the elite athletes from today aren't any more athletic than elite athletes of yesteryear. And "more skilled" is made possible by the league allowing garbage like this Giannis travel, carries, moving screens, push offs and foul-baiting.

the confusion imho is because he puts his hand under the ball making it impossible for an additional legal dribble at 7 seconds thus begins his "gather". From that point he takes a quick gather step followed by three additional steps. It's a travel by the old rules AND the new rules.

So this came up earlier and I'll ask you. What is "under"? I've done a bit of looking and under isn't defined in the rules clearly. I'd guess the refs have some addendum or clarification?

To my eyes, he's at all times above the center with the center of his palm which is how I've always considered it. But another poster pointed out his fingers and fair play, they're under! But then so is G35's Tim Hardaway clip. I'm honestly open here to learning what people think and if anyone has any NBA official clarity?

Now the whole taking 2 18 foot steps between a dribble Giannis can do is a whole other thing lol.

Valid points mentioned by both of you. If you look closely you'll see that the ball is still spinning in his hand at 7 seconds and then stops at 8 seconds. Therefore, that moment from 7 to 8 would "clearly" still be considered a live dribble according to the interpretation of the rules since 2018, even if his finger might be under the ball.

Thus, when he plants his left foot after 8 seconds that is what is considered the gather or zero step. Afterwards he is legally allowed his two normal steps.

If you honestly take the time to go through the "mdwbasketball" instagram and youtube channel there are some longer breakdowns where he asks NBA referees to opine and then he adds a screenshot of their answer and interpretation of the rule in written form. Things, like the live dribble and ball spinning, are addressed in those answers.

In addition, they also state that they won't called a travel on the suspicion that the ball might have stopped spinning a split second earlier. They'll only call it with 100% certainty. It goes without saying that this affords the players additional opportunity to abuse the freedom this rule gives them.

I'm not "defending" the rule. I'm simply trying to explain the reality of how NBA and FIBA have stated that they are calling this. I can remember being injured in 2018 and then coming back in late 2019 and being caught completely off guard by what my opponents were doing out there on the court. So, I can definitely understand the confusion.

Here's a completely legal but exaggerated version of what Giannis did just for demonstration purposes:

Watch on YouTube

Here we have the same concept applied, just moving in a different direction:

Watch on YouTube

This is a slightly different version, but I feel as though we haven't seen this done in the NBA yet. Imagine the things Wemby will do when he includes this stuff in his arsenal. Up until now he has added more traditional footwork working with Hakeem. But, eventually, I expect him to add these newer concepts to his game.

Watch on YouTube

[JackTalkThai]

Ball's still spinning in his hand when he takes the first couple of steps and hand's not under the ball. Allowed. Then it's just a regular gather plus one two. No travel.

If anything the very first "dribble" where he lifts the pivot before putting the ball down is technically the travel.

So if you just keep the ball spinning in your hand, you can run down the court without dribbling. Genius level logic. I like it.

[dhsilv2]

Ball's still spinning in his hand when he takes the first couple of steps and hand's not under the ball. Allowed. Then it's just a regular gather plus one two. No travel.

If anything the very first "dribble" where he lifts the pivot before putting the ball down is technically the travel.

So if you just keep the ball spinning in your hand, you can run down the court without dribbling. Genius level logic. I like it.

Logic? That's the rule...