MVP Rankings 1.0

[semi-sentient]

Yeah, you can't really put much blame on Vujacic and Morrison for the Lakers recent struggles. They play sparingly and aren't the reason we lost every single quarter against the Suns and got hammered by the Cavs. I'd say if you want to really put a finger on it you'd have to start by looking at how poorly Bynum and Odom have played these past 4 games. Our bench has sucked all season so that's nothing new, but when your starting center and 6th man play poorly it's going to have consequences, particularly when you're playing against quality opponents.

Why was this brought up in the MVP thread though?

[Dat Pass]

I am one of the biggest Kobe supporters for MVP out there, however I try to stay reasonable. If the Cavs can win in Atlanta tonight, my MVP for right now switches to LeBron. Even though Kobe's played very well lately, the team has gone 1-2 and needed double OT to beat the Kings. Now, in my opinion neither of those losses were Kobes fault, however some of the Cavs losses werent LeBrons fault either and it still hurt his MVP race.

In the end though, and Ive been saying this all along, Kobes supporting cast isnt much better than LeBrons, if at all. So if the Lakers can stay the best team in the league and Kobe can lead the league in scoring while shooting 48-49%, the MVP is his..

[INKtastic]

A week or so ago, the criteria for LeBron winning MVP was being set at having the #1 seed in the east when history shows even a 2 or 3 seed in a conference can win MVP if they have the best stats. Now that LeBron has the cavs tied for #1 seed in the east and continues to have the superior stats, the bar is being moved to best overall record and "good enough" stats?

FG% is being used when there are substantial gaps in both eFG% and TS%. It takes Kobe 3 more shots to score 1 more point. There are still substantial gaps in rebounds and assists.

A win tonight moves Cleveland ahead of boston in the standings, moves Cleveland to the top off all of the power rankings, and moves LeBron to the top of all MVP rankings. A sweep of the hawks the next two nights likely ensures LeBron gets his second NBA player of the month award two months into the season.

[semi-sentient]

A week or so ago, the criteria for LeBron winning MVP was being set at having the #1 seed in the east when history shows even a 2 or 3 seed in a conference can win MVP if they have the best stats.

History shows that only 4 of the last 10 PER leaders have won the MVP.

History shows that in the past 10 years only 1 player won the MVP award while leading the league in PER and NOT having the best overall record (Garnett, 2nd best record).

History shows that in the past 10 years not a single player that has led the league in PER won the award without being at least a #1 seed in their conference.

[INKtastic]

I see I'm going to have to update my chart to show things the same way.

[YLSKillaCam]

My MVP is Kobe until the Lakers don't have the #1 seed anymore. If they don't have the number 1 seed, then it goes to Lebron if he's got a decent record.

[Lionel Messi]

Sasha was getting almost no playing time early on.

Vujacic played 8.5 minutes per game in Oct./Nov., he played 7 per game so far in this month. He had 16 minutes against Sacramento in which he didn't play that bad. The Lakers can use Vujacic's 3 pt shooting anyway.

What three point shooting?
The guy cant do anything.

[INKtastic]

09 - LeBron: Led the league in PER, #1 seed in conference
08 - Kobe: 6th in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
07 - Dirk: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
06 - Nash: not in top 10 in PER, #3 seed in conference
05 - Nash: not in top 10 in PER, #1 seed in conference
04 - KG: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
03 - Duncan: #2 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
02 - Duncan: #2 in PER, #2 seed in conference
01 - Iverson: #3 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
00 - Shaq: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
99 - Malone: #2 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
98 - Jordan: #1 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
97 - Malone: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
96 - Jordan: #1 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
95 - Robinson: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
94 - Hakeem: #2 in PER in conference, #2 seed in conference
93 - Barkley: #3 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
92 - Jordan: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
91 - Jordan: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
90 - Magic: #2 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
89 - Magic: #1 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
88 - Jordan: #1 in PER, #3 seed in conference
87 - Magic: #1 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
86 - Bird: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
85 - Bird: #1 in PER, #1 seed in conference
84 - Bird: #1 in PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
83 - Moses: #1 PER, #1 seed in conference
82 - Moses: #1 PER, #3 seed in conference
81 - Erving: #2 PER in conference, #1 seed in conference
80 - Kareem: #1 PER in conference, #1 seed in conference

2003 - Duncan had the best PER of a top 4 team in the league
2002 - Shaq had the #1 PER, but missed 15 games
2001 - Iverson winning is controversial - many think Shaq should have won
1999 - Malone had the best PER of a top 6 team in the league
1994 - Hakeem had the best PER of a top 5 team in the league
1990 - Magic had the best PER of a top 4 team
1981 - Erving had a virtual tie with Parish for the best PER - 25.2 vs 25.1

So basically the best PER of a player on a top 4 team in the league almost always wins MVP unless they miss too many games. The exceptions are Kobe, Nash twice, Iverson and Barkley.

The award is a combination of outstanding individual performance and team success. If two teams are close, it almost always goes to the player who has preformed the best, and PER is a pretty reliable way to measure that.

[DowJones]

If at this point you still have Kobe ahead of LeBron then you are biased. LeBron trumps Kobe when looking at stats and any other type of ranking you really want. Now the Cavs are what...1 game behind the Lakers in the standings even though they Lakers have a far better supporting cast and a much better head coach?

[Dat Pass]

If at this point you still have Kobe ahead of LeBron then you are biased. LeBron trumps Kobe when looking at stats and any other type of ranking you really want. Now the Cavs are what...1 game behind the Lakers in the standings even though they Lakers have a far better supporting cast and a much better head coach?

Thats where you are wrong. "Far better"? No, not true.

[LakerFanForever]

I am one of the biggest Kobe supporters for MVP out there, however I try to stay reasonable. If the Cavs can win in Atlanta tonight, my MVP for right now switches to LeBron. Even though Kobe's played very well lately, the team has gone 1-2 and needed double OT to beat the Kings. Now, in my opinion neither of those losses were Kobes fault, however some of the Cavs losses werent LeBrons fault either and it still hurt his MVP race.

In the end though, and Ive been saying this all along, Kobes supporting cast isnt much better than LeBrons, if at all. So if the Lakers can stay the best team in the league and Kobe can lead the league in scoring while shooting 48-49%, the MVP is his..

Even as a big time Laker fan and a supporter of Kobe this is hysterical. C'mon Kobe has Gasol, Bynum. Artest, Odom, Fisher, Brown, Farmar, Walton. That is 8 VERY solid players. If it weren't for the injury bug people wouldnt be making absurd comments like this. The Cavs have who after Lebron? Mo, Big Z, Varajeo, Delonte (who has been out for personal reasons), Parker, Shaq, Moon, Hickson. Yes some people underrate the Cavs supporting cast because they do have good shooters and good hustlers and good depth from their big man. But I feel when you compare the next best 8 players, we are much better.

Gasol>>Mo
Bynum>> Shaq
Odom>>Varajeo
Artest>>Parker
Fisher>Moon
Brown >West (this year)
Walton + Farmar < Hickson +Big Z

The only advantage I really see for the Cavs is that they have 4 solid big men. But Gasol, Bynum, Artest, and Odom have a huge advantage over the Cavs and any team really. I mean how many teams can have Artest/Odom as their 4th or 5th option on offense, we will be fine every team goes through some bumps in the road.

[Dat Pass]

Heres the thing that frustrates me, and Ive mentioned this a million times in this thread.

Bynum has played like crap since Gasol returned. Since 12-6-09 (12 games):
10.2ppg, 5.6rpg, 1.6bpg (.484fg%) in about 27min.
Shaq this season:
10.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 1.3bpg (.505fg%) in 23min.

Considering that Big Z comes in as Shaq's backup, does this really favor LA?

Lamar Odom v. Varejao (both play same minutes):
8.7ppg, 8.6rpg, 3.4apg, 2.5tpg (.417fg%)
7.9ppg, 7.9rpg, 1.0apg, .7tpg (.513fg%)

When you factor in how terrible Odom has been shooting, and the amount of turnovers, how in the world does this favor Odom? I would love to hear that..

Pau Gasol v. Mo Williams (Each players 2nd option):
A) Gasol has missed 11 games
B) When you think about what LeBron needs to be most effective, would Gasol really be that much better for LeBron than Mo is? IMO, Mo is exactly what LeBron needs in a 2nd option.

Artest: What can I say, solid role player..

Now, heres the kicker.. Name ONE other player on the Lakers that would even make the Cavs roster. I cant think of any. Maybe Fish, but he wouldnt even crack the rotation..

[InBoobieWeTrust]

Heres the thing that frustrates me, and Ive mentioned this a million times in this thread.

Bynum has played like crap since Gasol returned. Since 12-6-09 (12 games):
10.2ppg, 5.6rpg, 1.6bpg (.484fg%) in about 27min.
Shaq this season:
10.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 1.3bpg (.505fg%) in 23min.

Considering that Big Z comes in as Shaq's backup, does this really favor LA?

Lamar Odom v. Varejao (both play same minutes):
8.7ppg, 8.6rpg, 3.4apg, 2.5tpg (.417fg%)
7.9ppg, 7.9rpg, 1.0apg, .7tpg (.513fg%)

When you factor in how terrible Odom has been shooting, and the amount of turnovers, how in the world does this favor Odom? I would love to hear that..

Pau Gasol v. Mo Williams (Each players 2nd option):
A) Gasol has missed 11 games
B) When you think about what LeBron needs to be most effective, would Gasol really be that much better for LeBron than Mo is? IMO, Mo is exactly what LeBron needs in a 2nd option.

Artest: What can I say, solid role player..

Now, heres the kicker.. Name ONE other player on the Lakers that would even make the Cavs roster. I cant think of any. Maybe Fish, but he wouldnt even crack the rotation..

Again, I'll trade the next 8 rotation guys after LeBron on Cleveland for the next 8 rotation guys after Kobe on L.A. right now. Do we have a deal?

[Benedict_Boozer]

^Yup. Ball Boy saying the Lakers supporting cast might not even be better than CLE is laughable. Ask any non-Kobe fan and they would laugh at that comment. Gasol alone makes that obvious, not to mention that doesn't even take into account the coaching advantage LA has. CLE has better DEPTH, sure, but in a playoff series your top 8 is what matters and LA has the best top 8 in the league BY FAR. It's not even close.

It's funny hearing the flip flopping also. Bgil and An Unbiased fan prior to the season were making comments about LA winning 70 games. Earlier in this thread the argument was CLE needed to finish within 5-6 games for LBJ to win MVP, etc.

Now that it's looking like LA/CLE will be close in the standings again, the argument is suddenly changing to Kobe just needing to have a better record and throwing the 5-6 game spread out the window. Funny stuff.

[Father Time]

Who cares if they're better in theory? Don't they have to PLAY better to actually BE better than Cleveland's supporting cast? We should measure how good they are based on how well they play, right? Their play has been very comparable to Cleveland's supporting cast over the last couple of weeks.

[Dat Pass]

^Yup. Ball Boy saying the Lakers supporting cast might not even be better than CLE is laughable. Ask any non-Kobe fan and they would laugh at that comment.

What did I say that wasnt true? Go back and READ the post.

[semi-sentient]

Gasol is a great fit alongside Kobe, no question, but Mo happens to be a great fit alongside LeBron. What's being left out here is that Gasol has missed 11 games, and in 2 of those games Bynum did not play (both victories). How many has Mo Williams missed? None.

Comparing supporting casts is fine and dandy, but at the end of the day the Lakers still have a better record and have had to deal with just as much, if not more than the Cavs. You're seeing first hand what the Lakers have to deal with right now that both Bynum and Gasol are healthy. With all the talk of LeBron's hardships in having to integrate Shaq I'm a bit surprised that this hasn't gotten more burn, in addition to having to integrate a supposed nutcase in Artest.

Injuries? The Lakers have had more, and that includes Kobe having to play through his to keep the Lakers at the top, something that I feel should be considered. Mo Williams has not missed a single game, and the only other significant players that have missed time are Shaq and Delonte West.

LeBron does have the better numbers, but once you account for position and system, the difference is not really all that significant. To me, it's pretty much a toss up at this point all things considered.

[Dat Pass]

Gasol is a great fit alongside Kobe, no question, but Mo happens to be a great fit alongside LeBron. What's being left out here is that Gasol has missed 11 games, and in 2 of those games Bynum did not play (both victories). How many has Mo Williams missed? None.

Exactly. No one is going to argue that Mo is a better player than Gasol. However, which is a better fit for LeBron? Maybe Gasol still, but not by much. Mo Williams plays perfectly to LeBrons strengths, and I think that gets overlooked way too much.

Factoring that, Gasol's injuries, the Shaq/Bynum and Varejao/Odom comparisons already, and the depth of the Cavs, I dont really see how the advantage "clearly" goes to LA. Maybe a little bit, but overall, not much. And if injuries hit LA more than they already have, the Lakers depth (or lack of) will ruin them.

[Father Time]

Mo Williams is clutch, too. I've seen him hit lots of big shots for the Cavs this year.

[CzBoobie]

Exactly. No one is going to argue that Mo is a better player than Gasol. However, which is a better fit for LeBron? Maybe Gasol still, but not by much. Mo Williams plays perfectly to LeBrons strengths, and I think that gets overlooked way too much.

Isn't this the most important thing, who the better player is? Yes, Mo fits well with LeBron. Yes, Pau Gasol fits well with Kobe. Pau Gasol is a better player than Mo Williams. Case closed.

And if Mo was such a great second option, the Cavs would have played in the Finals last year. But we'll see how he does this season, that experience should help him.