NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2023-24

Hello Brooklyn · Post #1421 » by **Hello Brooklyn** » Sat Dec 2, 2023 9:09 pm

I would go with Jokic right now. But its funny to me that Tatum is never seriously considered.

Hes putting up great numbers on the best team in the East with great defense.

What exactly is Luka doing that makes him better? I don't get it.

Johnny Firpo · Post #1422 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sat Dec 2, 2023 9:39 pm

Hello Brooklyn wrote:I would go with Jokic right now. But its funny to me that Tatum is never seriously considered.

Hes putting up great numbers on the best team in the East with great defense.

What exactly is Luka doing that makes him better? I don't get it.

Obviously his elite passing/playmaking. Also, Tatum has a vastly better roster. I think the consensus is that if you give Luka the Celtics roster without Tatum, they will be the clear cut favorites for the championship.

CD_41 · Post #1423 » by **CD_41** » Sat Dec 2, 2023 9:45 pm

Kurtz wrote:
CD_41 wrote:
iggymcfrack wrote:
Lakers with LeBron on floor: +4.9
Lakers with LeBron on bench: -13.9
On/off: +18.8

Bucks with Giannis on floor: +3.8
Bucks with Giannis on bench: +1.5
On/off: +2.3

Mavericks with Luka on floor: +0.2
Mavericks with Luka on bench: -0.9
On/off: +1.1

LeBron’s been carrying the hell out of the Lakers. He’s played in 19 out of 20 games and they’ve collapsed when he’s gone to the bench. Luka and Giannis haven’t showed anywhere near the same impact so far.

Again, if you measure the MVP only with how the team plays when the guy is on the bench, you would have to look how good the bench is. Also if you just compare the Mavs bench with the Lakers bench, you'll easily understand why the numbers are what they are.
You seem very resistent against a simple understanding of context.

I'll say it again: For a in depth analysis you need MULTIPLE STATS and MULTIPLE OTHERS factors to build a solid argument.
Everything else is just being a fan and picking the argument that suits your cast the most, LEAVING out all the other variables needed.

I completely agree with your post in principle, but the specific example of Lakers may be a bit off. This is a team that starts Cam Reddish and Taurean Prince and plays Reeves, Wood, Christie and Hachimura off the bench.

It see what you mean. The players individually are good to great when it comes to bench level players.
But from what I've seen is that they're not that cohesive and "round" yet. Don't like the Gabe Vincent fit so far.
I think that a more classic distributing point guard would be amazing for them.

Lakers In 5 · Post #1424 » by **Lakers In 5** » Sat Dec 2, 2023 9:49 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Hello Brooklyn wrote:I would go with Jokic right now. But its funny to me that Tatum is never seriously considered.

Hes putting up great numbers on the best team in the East with great defense.

What exactly is Luka doing that makes him better? I don't get it.

Obviously his elite passing/playmaking. Also, Tatum has a vastly better roster. I think the consensus is that if you give Luka the Celtics roster without Tatum, they will be the clear cut favorites for the championship.

Yes, I would agree with this. Furthermore, if you switch the two I'd say the Mavericks would get significantly worse if Tatum were leading that team.

Special_Puppy · Post #1425 » by **Special_Puppy** » Sat Dec 2, 2023 10:54 pm

Johnny Firpo wrote:
Hello Brooklyn wrote:I would go with Jokic right now. But its funny to me that Tatum is never seriously considered.

Hes putting up great numbers on the best team in the East with great defense.

What exactly is Luka doing that makes him better? I don't get it.

Obviously his elite passing/playmaking. Also, Tatum has a vastly better roster. I think the consensus is that if you give Luka the Celtics roster without Tatum, they will be the clear cut favorites for the championship.

I'm not sure that's actually true. Tatum is a significantly better defender and tends to mesh well with other players better than Luka (check out the two's RAPM)

Statlanta · Post #1426 » by **Statlanta** » Sat Dec 2, 2023 11:09 pm

Woodsanity wrote:1. Jokic
2. SGA
3. Embiid
4. Giannis
5. Luka
6. Haliburton

Tatum shouldn't even be in the convo anymore with a PER of only 21.62 so I had to drop him.

PER doesn't capture defense where Haliburton's entire team doesn't play any(also in reference to the Jordan/James comparison in the tweet above)

ChartFiction · Post #1427 » by **ChartFiction** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 12:08 am

Luka is the most egregiously overrated player in the league.

Every single year the pure impact numbers are low tier and don't compare at all to other stars he's mentioned alongside with.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #1428 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 1:17 am

Unfortunately it looks like Curry's MVP consideration was short lived because his teammates are Buns.

Why isn't NBAs new crowned GOAT Anthony Edwards not in there?

CobraCommander · Post #1429 » by **CobraCommander** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 5:05 am

Jokic- then Giannis - then KD… then Haliburton then Embiid - then SGA then Tatum then Luka then Booker or Luka- tatum Booker or Booker Luka Tatum- then Fox…

Honestly after Giannis it’s day by day game by game - u gotta win AnD have gaudy numbers (Luka looks good tonight but lost). Boston won without Tatum yesterday - etc

And who knows about Edwards?!? They just winning then Zion needs some love

AleksandarN · Post #1430 » by **AleksandarN** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 5:32 am

36 pts 14 reb 14 ast 2 stl 1 blk plus 13 0 turnovers. Denver loses by 6 on a back to back missing his second best player. Denver has played the most games this year by any team. Jokic is on an another level this year. He is even better than he was last year. Scary.

AleksandarN · Post #1431 » by **AleksandarN** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 5:40 am

Jokic is now averaging 29 pts 12.8 reb 9.8 ast this season. Almost a 29 pt triple double. He is playing better this year than last. He has to be clear front runner right now,

AleksandarN · Post #1432 » by **AleksandarN** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 6:01 am

Read on Twitter

Sarevok · Post #1433 » by **Sarevok** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 6:39 am

AleksandarN wrote:Jokic is now averaging 29 pts 12.8 reb 9.8 ast this season. Almost a 29 pt triple double. He is playing better this year than last. He has to be clear front runner right now,

I don't agree he is playing better this year than last. His percentages are suffering this year, at least for now.

dygaction · Post #1434 » by **dygaction** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:12 am

ChartFiction wrote:Luka is the most egregiously overrated player in the league.

Every single year the pure impact numbers are low tier and don't compare at all to other stars he's mentioned alongside with.

Luka has his shortcomings but not this comment when he just played 46min after a new born daughter giving 36/15/18/2/2 with 5 Mavs rotation players, including 2nd and 3rd best, out...

OverAndOut · Post #1435 » by **OverAndOut** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:21 am

AleksandarN wrote:36 pts 14 reb 14 ast 2 stl 1 blk plus 13 0 turnovers. Denver loses by 6 on a back to back missing his second best player. Denver has played the most games this year by any team. Jokic is on an another level this year. He is even better than he was last year. Scary.

Some people think the pity MVP is on his level :lol:

Johnny Firpo · Post #1436 » by **Johnny Firpo** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:36 am

ChartFiction wrote:Luka is the most egregiously overrated player in the league.

Every single year the pure impact numbers are low tier and don't compare at all to other stars he's mentioned alongside with.

That's not true at all, what are you talking? He always had good advanced stats in the last two years, and pretty much comparable to the other guys not named Jokic.

ChartFiction · Post #1437 » by **ChartFiction** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:40 am

dygaction wrote:
ChartFiction wrote:Luka is the most egregiously overrated player in the league.

Every single year the pure impact numbers are low tier and don't compare at all to other stars he's mentioned alongside with.

Luka has his shortcomings but not this comment when he just played 46min after a new born daughter giving 36/15/18/2/2 with 5 Mavs rotation players, including 2nd and 3rd best, out...

The comment was before the game, but the point is the same.

His closest comparison is prime Harden. But prime Harden had a very significantly higher league-adjusted TS%. He was capable of playing at both fast and half court pace.

Luka scores at moderately above league average efficiency. The margins he gives offensively barely clears the amount of times he gives up a bucket.

His touches x seconds per touch has been the highest in the league for the past 3 seasons. Dominating the ball.

The superstars he's routinely tagged with are tiers above him in impacting the game. There is comprehensive data across multiple rosters and coaches for the players.

juanc · Post #1438 » by **juanc** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 8:01 am

Read on Twitter

TO bad the Mavs didn't win vs OKC, but it was an expected L without half of the rotation.

iggymcfrack · Post #1439 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 8:16 am

Sarevok wrote:
AleksandarN wrote:Jokic is now averaging 29 pts 12.8 reb 9.8 ast this season. Almost a 29 pt triple double. He is playing better this year than last. He has to be clear front runner right now,

I don't agree he is playing better this year than last. His percentages are suffering this year, at least for now.

Honestly, it’s two things:

1) Shouldering more of the scoring load with Murray out which absolutely has been necessary

and

2) Trying to introduce the volume 3-point shooting that he dominated with during the playoffs to his regular season game and being cold to start the season on really good looks.

I guess you could say his performance was slightly more valuable last year, but he’s dominating in a different way now with a more well-rounded game and I think he’s a better player than he was last year if that makes sense.

iggymcfrack · Post #1440 » by **iggymcfrack** » Sun Dec 3, 2023 8:20 am

ChartFiction wrote:
dygaction wrote:
ChartFiction wrote:Luka is the most egregiously overrated player in the league.

Every single year the pure impact numbers are low tier and don't compare at all to other stars he's mentioned alongside with.

Luka has his shortcomings but not this comment when he just played 46min after a new born daughter giving 36/15/18/2/2 with 5 Mavs rotation players, including 2nd and 3rd best, out...

The comment was before the game, but the point is the same.

His closest comparison is prime Harden. But prime Harden had a very significantly higher league-adjusted TS%. He was capable of playing at both fast and half court pace.

Luka scores at moderately above league average efficiency. The margins he gives offensively barely clears the amount of times he gives up a bucket.

His touches x seconds per touch has been the highest in the league for the past 3 seasons. Dominating the ball.

The superstars he's routinely tagged with are tiers above him in impacting the game. There is comprehensive data across multiple rosters and coaches for the players.

I feel like you’re largely right. Despite otherworldly ability, there are some strategic issues in his game that keep him from being a top 5 impact player in the regular season. In the postseason though, when teams lock down and easy points are difficult to get, I think his ability to create a bucket with solid efficiency either through passing or scoring does make him a top 5 guy. It helps that he tries a lot more on defense too.

Who will be the 2023-24 NBA MVP?